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05-02-2007, 09:51 AM
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#26
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Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Quite agree. It also shouldn't be bolstered by unsubstantiated, overly romanticized, myth. Taken way out of context as well...
Best,
Ron
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Those who think that "loyalty" in Feudal Japan is exemplified by the 47 Ronin should read up on the Battle of Sekigahara. Nasty reality check.
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Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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05-02-2007, 10:19 AM
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#27
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
Cito Maramba wrote:
Those who think that "loyalty" in Feudal Japan is exemplified by the 47 Ronin should read up on the Battle of Sekigahara. Nasty reality check.
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Darn straight...always serves as a good reminder. Not to mention that people like Oda were quite...vicious.
Best,
Ron (hope I've got the right battle...)
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Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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05-02-2007, 10:48 AM
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#28
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Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
One of my sandans fell in love with the way Endo Shihan teaches and has taken a path in that direction. When they had a seminar with one of Endo's top students and their dojo was not big enough they used the Shindai Dojo. I really don't see a problem here. Heck if all my students would find someone else I could go fishing!
Dennis
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05-02-2007, 10:54 AM
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#29
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Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
Mike Logan wrote:
I would suggest re-reading posts# 5,6,15,16
While the internet looks like a really big place, in some situations it isn't. Publicly insinuating upon the quality of someone's loyalty to another, or to a group as a whole, is rash at best.
Learn from the example of James Smith
michael.
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Who is James Smith, please?
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05-02-2007, 11:19 AM
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#30
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Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Darn straight...always serves as a good reminder. Not to mention that people like Oda were quite...vicious.
Best,
Ron (hope I've got the right battle...)
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Good example, but wrong battle, I'm afraid... Oda Nobunaga was quite vicious and tactically skilled... His troops slaughtered the Takeda forces at Nagashino with excellent use of muskets... his skill as a tactician didn't save him from betrayed and murdered by his supposedly LOYAL retainer, Akechi Mutsuhide...
At Sekigahara, Tokugawa Ieyasu's forces won when the army of the Kobayakawa Clan betrayed the Toyotomi forces led by Mitsunari Ishida... this victory paved the way for the establishment of the 260+ year Tokugawa Shogunate...
Here endeth the history lesson
Cheers,
Cito
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Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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05-02-2007, 11:38 AM
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#31
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
And a good lesson it was!
Thanks,
And Best,
Ron
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Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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05-02-2007, 12:51 PM
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#32
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Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Ok, so my grasp of Japanese feudal history isn't nearly as impressive as Cito's but I seem to remember reading that this whole samurai-loyal-to-only-one-lord thing is a part of that "overly romanticized, myth" that Ron was talking about.
I really can't remember where I read it, but it was the idea that if the Lord couldn't pay the samurai's stipend, or if another lord was offering a bigger stipend or better chances at advancement that samurai would often switch allegiances. Not so different from any of us in the current work-force.
Bronson
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"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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05-02-2007, 01:09 PM
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#33
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote:
Who is James Smith, please?
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Cough...if you are really interested, look here...
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/search...earchid=275837
If you don't look, you won't miss much.
Best,
Ron
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Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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05-02-2007, 02:13 PM
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#34
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Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,502
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
If you don't look, you won't miss much.
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Actually, if you don't look, you won't miss anything...
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05-02-2007, 07:10 PM
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#35
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote:
I will make this my last post on this subject, because we all seem to have a very different view on this subject, and for the most part i am greatly out numbered, which is a shame because i dont see how you can truly train in an art and not try to adhere to all that it should encompass, i geuss we should all take our GI's off, not train in suwari waza, and no more bowing, hell why even call your intructor Sensei, just call him teacher or by his name, lets take out all of the tradition about the training in AIKIDO, maybe i am wrong about this, or maybe i am the only one on here that is correct, that is subject to debate, which has already happened, and i do apprciate the banter, as this is what i asked for, Thanks all
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How loyal was Morihei Ueshiba to Sokaku Takeda?
Best,
Chris
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05-02-2007, 11:31 PM
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#36
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Dojo: United Traditional Aikido
Location: Somerset
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 57
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
I think its interesting this concept of loyalty to ones teacher. I have recently left a teacher that I great admire based on the fact that I no longer want what I once did.
Does this make me a bad person....? Probably. However, rather than back biting and causing problems, I think that it is best to go and search for what you really want. There is no point being with a teacher that you dont agree with, it will only lead to resentment and this will show in your practice.
You cannot stay where you are unhappy and it is as simple as that.
Regards,
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05-02-2007, 11:32 PM
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#37
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Dojo: United Traditional Aikido
Location: Somerset
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 57
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
ps, seems this James chap has been erased from time itself!!
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05-03-2007, 07:30 AM
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#38
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Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
How loyal was Morihei Ueshiba to Sokaku Takeda?
Best,
Chris
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This is a pretty good example of what we are talking about, actually. O-Sensei clearly felt the need to go in his own direction and did so. But from all accounts of the deshi, he always referred to Takeda respectfully and whenever Takeda visited, O-Sensei treated him as his teacher and acted accordingly. The virtual disowning of Takeda and Daito Ryu was done buy the Aikikai under Kisshomaru, Osawa, and company (at least as I understand it).
Also, in terms of loyalty going both ways, as Chuck Clark Sensei pointed out, Takeda did some questionable things such as walking in and hi-jacking the Asahi Newspaper training program.
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05-03-2007, 08:22 AM
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#39
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
All good examples of how complicated relationships are, and why "loyalty" is often in the eyes of the beholder. And perhaps why these questions should be left to the people most closely involved.
Best,
Ron
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Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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05-03-2007, 08:54 AM
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#40
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
This is a pretty good example of what we are talking about, actually. O-Sensei clearly felt the need to go in his own direction and did so. But from all accounts of the deshi, he always referred to Takeda respectfully and whenever Takeda visited, O-Sensei treated him as his teacher and acted accordingly. The virtual disowning of Takeda and Daito Ryu was done buy the Aikikai under Kisshomaru, Osawa, and company (at least as I understand it).
Also, in terms of loyalty going both ways, as Chuck Clark Sensei pointed out, Takeda did some questionable things such as walking in and hi-jacking the Asahi Newspaper training program.
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It does appear as if Ueshiba was always respectful in face to face meetings. That Takeda hi-jacked the Asahi News dojo is both a symptom of the problems between them and an interesting example of how Japanese deal with difficult problems, IMO.
In any case, my point was that even in "traditional" Japan, it was common for people to go off and open dojo on their own, change teachers, etc.. If it is good for "traditional" Japanese, then arguing against it on the basis of a tradition of loyalty in budo seems, to me, to make no sense.
As for disowning, I'm not sure how far that really goes. If you look back at Kisshomaru's books published in Japanese, even those quite far back, Takeda was always prominently mentioned in the history sections.
Best,
Chris
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05-03-2007, 09:28 AM
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#41
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
...Takeda was always prominently mentioned in the history sections.
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Yes, mentioned, but in what way? I can't read Japanese, so I can't say myself. I do know that many of the books available in English seem to portray Takeda negatively even when he is prominent.
Is it the same or different in Kisshomaru's books?
Best,
Ron
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Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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05-03-2007, 09:34 AM
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#42
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Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
All good examples of how complicated relationships are, and why "loyalty" is often in the eyes of the beholder. And perhaps why these questions should be left to the people most closely involved.
Best,
Ron
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My teacher helped me in this dept. "loyalty to the Art above all."
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05-03-2007, 10:37 AM
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#43
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Exactly...and if your teacher's impression of the art and your own impression of the art should develop in different ways, it would be perfectly reasonable, under those circumstances, to look for a teacher whose vision is more closely aligned with your own.
A wise caveat would be that no one's vision will be exactly the same as your own (if you are at all developed as an individual human being), and simply blowing around from teacher to teacher is not likely to be productive, either.
Best,
Ron
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Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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05-03-2007, 11:17 AM
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#44
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Dojo: United Traditional Aikido
Location: Somerset
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 57
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Same as the story of Tesshu.... I believe? Didnt he leave his sensei also?
I agree with Ron, concrete your core principles, develop them, train hard and love the art. There is nothing more exciting than getting to know new people through Aikido and visiting the old ones, especially after they have seen how you have changed and improved.
Regards,
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05-03-2007, 11:22 AM
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#45
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Yes, mentioned, but in what way? I can't read Japanese, so I can't say myself. I do know that many of the books available in English seem to portray Takeda negatively even when he is prominent.
Is it the same or different in Kisshomaru's books?
Best,
Ron
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I don't think that I ever saw Kisshomaru himself say anything negative, but some of the pre-war students who met Takeda had negative stories to tell - even Tokimune admitted the truth of some of them.
OTOH, the reason why Sagawa decided not to take up Morihei's invitation to teach at Aikikai hombu was that he (Morihei, not Kisshomaru) had made some negative comments about Takeda in an interview. Anyway, sniping at other martial artists is sort of a popular past-time in Japan, in all arts, and from all sides.
Best,
Chris
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05-03-2007, 11:27 AM
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#46
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Thanks for the reply! Most interesting situations...
B,
R
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Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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05-03-2007, 12:14 PM
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#47
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Dojo: aikido of central new york
Location: syracuse,ny
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 143
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Apparently i am wrong, though i dont in any way think so.
Maybe that is the hopeless romantic in me, i guess i just wish that this was the way things were. thanks all
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05-03-2007, 01:32 PM
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#48
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Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,038
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
I don't see how wishing others to conform to your wishes is romantic or a virtue. Dictators prize loyalty highly. You might even argue that they prize it as the highest virtue.
It's fine to feel loyalty but honesty is a virtue also.
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05-03-2007, 01:42 PM
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#49
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Brian, if I had a nickle for everytime I was wrong (or someone else thought so) I'd be a wealthy man. Don't sweat it...just being open to the possibility gives us more options in life.
Best always,
Ron
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Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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05-03-2007, 03:15 PM
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#50
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Dojo: Kokikai Aikido Boston
Location: Boston
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 121
Offline
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Re: loyalty a lost virtue
Brian:
I can sort of understand your thinking, anything that happens within a dojo that challenges the value you put on it can be disturbing. When a student becomes a fixture in the dojo and then has to leave for some reason, things change, but then when a new student walks in the door things change again. It's all part of the growth process. Students at different levels tend to see things differently, and everyone sees the dojo from their own perspective. I suggest you try to recognize this as a potentially negative but yet potentially positive change in the dojo. Personally, I try to stay out of dojo politics, or not have them! I think you've accepted that this change threatens you. The next step is to realize the value of conflict in our art. I don't know what level you are at within the dojo, but every child has a time when they idolize their parents, then later start to see them as so boringly human!
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