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Old 04-06-2007, 05:29 AM   #26
dps
 
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Aikido does seem geared toward asymmetrical conflict, for which avoidance is a vital skill. To avoid another's blows does not mean you are moving away from a position of effectiveness, it just means you aren't getting hit.
Thank you.
David

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Old 04-06-2007, 05:33 AM   #27
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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Avoidance is running away. Stepping off-line simply puts one in a position to better choose the place and manner in which the "interaction" occurs.
Another option would be to chose no" interaction".

David

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Old 04-06-2007, 05:53 AM   #28
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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Another option would be to chose no" interaction".
Which, if you think about it, is still making a choice about place and manner. The gist of my statement is that the key is you making the choice.
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:07 AM   #29
dps
 
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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Which, if you think about it, is still making a choice about place and manner. The gist of my statement is that the key is you making the choice.
O\

Yes, I understand and you are right.

David

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Old 04-06-2007, 06:36 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

If by avoidance you mean to offer no resistance and get off the line of attack, then I would agree because it implies you are still connected. If by avoidance you mean to run away, I would still disagree.

Words are so up for personal interpretation and definition. Makes them a very inadequate means of communication. Yet, we have few option.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:16 AM   #31
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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I did not say that Aikido was avoidance, I was saying that avoidance is the first step you do in an Aikido technique, then blending, harmony and finally control.
Actually, my first step is to become more of a target. But then again, I'm not talking about technique.

best,
Adam
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:30 AM   #32
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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If by avoidance you mean to offer no resistance and get off the line of attack, then I would agree because it implies you are still connected. If by avoidance you mean to run away, I would still disagree..
Yes, get off the line of attack is what I mean. It doesn't have to be a large or big movement, I think any movement that gets you out of the line of attack could be called avoiding the attack.

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Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Words are so up for personal interpretation and definition. Makes them a very inadequate means of communication. Yet, we have few option.
Especially for someone like me not use to communicating by written word.

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Old 04-06-2007, 10:01 AM   #33
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

"The honorable art of ducking and dodging and getting the hell out of the way"
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Old 04-06-2007, 11:09 AM   #34
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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How does avoidance of a conflict increase the longevity of the conflict. If I am not there, there is no conflict.

David
You must have one lazy attacker if they're only going to throw one punch before calling it a day.

Chris Moses
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Old 04-06-2007, 11:53 AM   #35
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

I played baseball when I was young. I was afraid of being struck by a baseball, so I avoided baseballs when they were hit towards me. It was very difficult to catch a baseball while trying to avoid being struck by it. I did not have to worry about being struck if I caught the ball, but I avoided the ball if I felt I could not not catch it . This problem is prevelant in baseball - watch a game and if you see a ball player catch the ball to one side of his body or another, chances are he chose not to committ to being in front of the ball. My baseball coach told me, "You are afraid to get hit, so you avoid getting in front of the ball. When you are not in the right position to catch the ball, your chances of being hit are better than you chances of catching the ball. When you become confident in your ability to catch the ball, you will not worry about being hit by it. Once you no longer worry about being hit by the ball you will be able to get into a better position to catch the ball." This completely changed my outlook on catching a baseball and helped my short-lived baseball career (which ended in college).

Avoidance is a deliberate act to not engage a person, place, or thing. If my mentality is to avoid my partner, then I have committed not to engage my partner for some reason. This is contrary to the spirit of fudoshin, the spirit to enter under the blade.

I have heard several posters who champion irrimi, and I agree that aikido is irrimi. I do not believe I have ever seen a shihan do anything that would resemble "avoidance" of his/her partner. I have also heard some posters argue the meaning of the word. Whether we choose to argue semantics, our bodies know the meaning of avoidance.

Last edited by jonreading : 04-06-2007 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:39 PM   #36
Larry John
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

For Eric Webber: Mixing substances (no matter how delectable) in a suspension does not mean they are exchanging properties (which would create new substances), but that the substances are being arrayed into a complex system that takes advantage of some of the properties each substance brought with it.

For All: Based on my current level of understanding (which is much more limited than I'd like), I find Erick Mead's viewpoint most in line with what I think I've heard from my instructors. From one perspective, aikido is about achieving a tactically or even strategically dominant position in time and space, while maintaining the structure required to take advantage of that position if required. The ideal is to achieve this position and structure without conflict--perhaps by being in it all the time, regardless of the situation.

Larry
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Old 04-06-2007, 04:06 PM   #37
Larry John
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Oops! I should have said, "time, space and spirit," rather than just time and space.

Larry
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Old 04-06-2007, 04:27 PM   #38
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

As Lynn pointed out, it's all word choice, and I think we are all saying the same thing. Nonetheless, avoidance is a poor word to describe Aikido. Avoidance implies disengagement and as Jon described with his baseball analogy, a state of fear. Ikeda Sensei kindly reminds me always during shomenuchi practice to "get closer" while entering, because I keep trying to avoid being hit and so disengage with my partner. It's a completely different mindset than "irimi" and "tenkan", which certainly "avoids" the strike in that you are not hit, but it is done by accepting it, rather than avoiding it.
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:44 PM   #39
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Why should we avoid conflict? Some conflict sure. But all?

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 04-07-2007, 01:59 AM   #40
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

I think Macroscopically it is impossible to avoid conflict actually. You may personally avoid it for the moment that you choose to, but in some way it must be dealt with eventually.

Another way to look at it would be this: If we consciously know about a particular conflict we make a choice concerning it. Avoidance would be one such choice. In making that choice..we have in fact "dealt with it, by non-dealing".

It may be the right thing to do at that point in time, however, we never had the option of taking "no action".

seeing a group of thugs doing something wrong....the best choice may be avoidance for self preservation. However, our actions of what we do later may either imply participation by taking no action...OR we can call the police and report it, or maybe be proactive and establish a neighborhood watch

or maybe we look at it deeper and decide to attack the root issues of what is the cause of the "thug" problems in the neighborhood and work on after school programs or what not.

Dealing with conflict can be very complex and involve many layers.

I think the biggest mistake we can make is believing that we as a person remain outside of a particular conflict...isolated from it, and we can indeed make a choice to "not participate" in it.

Avoidance is a choice, it is an action.

I think many of us are not saying avoidance...but "non participation".

I think one of the best parts about aikido is that it SHOULD raise our level of mindfulness and empathy. To help us realize that we are all interconnected and that the choices we make in life CAN make a difference for all.

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Old 04-07-2007, 05:41 AM   #41
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I played baseball when I was young. I was afraid of being struck by a baseball, so I avoided baseballs when they were hit towards me. It was very difficult to catch a baseball while trying to avoid being struck by it. I did not have to worry about being struck if I caught the ball, but I avoided the ball if I felt I could not not catch it . This problem is prevelant in baseball - watch a game and if you see a ball player catch the ball to one side of his body or another, chances are he chose not to committ to being in front of the ball. My baseball coach told me, "You are afraid to get hit, so you avoid getting in front of the ball. When you are not in the right position to catch the ball, your chances of being hit are better than you chances of catching the ball. When you become confident in your ability to catch the ball, you will not worry about being hit by it. Once you no longer worry about being hit by the ball you will be able to get into a better position to catch the ball." This completely changed my outlook on catching a baseball and helped my short-lived baseball career (which ended in college).
In your explanation above the goal was to stop the ball by standing in the line of attack and catching the ball. In aikido we do not catch the punch aim at your body by standing in the line of attack. A better sports analogy would be jai lai where the player does not stop the ball by getting in front of the ball with his body, but to the side of the line of attack, matching the direction of attack, and guiding the ball back toward the front wall, adding to the momentum of the ball by using a circular movement of his body. An example of avoidance, matching and control.

David

Last edited by dps : 04-07-2007 at 05:47 AM.

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Old 04-07-2007, 06:03 AM   #42
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Avoiding getting punched, kicked or grabbed does not mean you are running away from the attacker, it means you are protecting yourself from getting hurt and also setting your self up the take control of the attack. If you do not avoid getting hit in the face, then are you practicing Aikido or "The Way of The Intercepting Face"?

David

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Old 04-07-2007, 06:30 AM   #43
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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O Sensei said (or rather, was translated): "When he attacks you striking or cutting with a sword, there is essentially one line or one point. All you need to do is avoid this." He didn't say "avoid the strike or cut," or "step out of the way of the attack." He said "avoid the one line or point."
If you don't avoid the line of the striking sword or the point of impact of the cutting sword then the attack is over and the conflict is resolved not in your favor.

David

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Old 04-07-2007, 06:40 AM   #44
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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I do want to be in the way -- but in a different way. Avoiding the one line of approach to connecting with the attack (the line he wants to make the connection with),I
Hey, that is what I said.

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Old 04-07-2007, 06:50 AM   #45
Eric Webber
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

There is a practice of shomenuchi ikkyo whereby nage (tori) stands on one leg to receive the strike (thus nage cannot "get off the line"). While remaining stablized there is a way to blend, harmonize, "deal with attack", etc., and not die in the process. While I am by far not particularly talented at this approach (lot's of clashing when I do it), I have experienced others doing it (that is, I was uke, and I was trying to land my hand forcefully on the target). This approach/practice is illustrated in William Gleason's book "The Spiritual Foundations of Aikido" (Destiny Books, 1995) by some nice pictures. It is a fascinating approach to this technique and others as well.
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Old 04-07-2007, 06:56 AM   #46
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

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Larry John wrote: View Post
For Eric Webber: Mixing substances (no matter how delectable) in a suspension does not mean they are exchanging properties (which would create new substances), but that the substances are being arrayed into a complex system that takes advantage of some of the properties each substance brought with it.
Thanks for the scientific correction and explanation, Larry, I do like precision. Unfortunately science was not the point of the post, my point was to describe an interaction in general terms and language that others might appreciate for the value of the metaphor. However, if you get up to AWR anytime soon milkshakes are on me! See you on the mat soon.
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Old 04-07-2007, 11:39 AM   #47
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

In each of the video clips below you can see an avoidance of the attack before the Irimi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE4jkH204pM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJn74HJPN2U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNQCmvXiTB4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDxULcp2bsA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUMugn8LjiM

David

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Old 04-07-2007, 12:04 PM   #48
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

In these clips, you can see some nice avoidance of the attack before the irimi. But you can also see some straight irimi right into the attacker, perfectly demonstrating the occupation of space that Ellis Amdur mentions in his blog linked above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE4IkPzJOo4

Ueshiba does similar things (particularly, the straight knock back with his shoulders mentioned in Amdur's blog) in the 1935 Asahi film.

Josh Reyer

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Old 04-07-2007, 01:15 PM   #49
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Just my two cents worth here...

None of the clips referenced by David above were avoiding the attack. The "attack" is not the hand, arm, etc. but the center behind it that is providing the force from the ground through the uke's legs. The hand or arm are just the connectors and each time the tori evades or parrys the connector while entering (irimi) at the same time into the center taking control of the uke and redirecting their force.

Avoiding to me means to go away from the force without affecting it by creating kuzushi/tsukuri.

It's really important to define terms such as "avoidance". We may be talking about the same thing but using different terms.

Chuck Clark
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Old 04-07-2007, 01:29 PM   #50
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Re: Aikido: The Way of Avoidance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
In each of the video clips below you can see an avoidance of the attack before the Irimi.
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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
No avoidance. He steps in off the back foot. The front foot does not move until he begins his tenkan. Irimi all the way, right alongside the line of the shomen cut, displacing it into kuzushi.
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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Likewise, not avoiding -- entering and leading in front of and in the line of the yokomenuchi cut.
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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Again, irimi -- rolling like a wheel right along the line attacking arm, taking progressive kuzushi (i.e. -- displacing the attack from the line) -- and engaged the entire time. This is not avoidance -- although it may play into uke's preception that it is, which certainly helps.
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Again, his center moves straight in and he sweeps the attack from the line with extension, allowing him to keep his own center on the line. His torso posture and turn may distract from that actual motion of his center -- which is straight in.
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There. Now that one shows stepping off the line, and an initial avoidance. Good throw. But note that the disconnection from the inital attack, allows attacker -- if he had a knife-- to cut nage easily in the exposed femoral artery at the groin, as nage steps off line. That's the danger of avoidance.

Better to connect to the attack, immediately, so as to know exactly where the blade or hand is. We often perform this one with either the back hand or the front hand coming over to meet the knife arm and take it off line with the tai sabaki, and thus maintaining connection, throughout the movement. YMMV

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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