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Old 01-27-2015, 11:02 AM   #26
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
Join Date: Apr 2013
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Germany
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Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda, 2004

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
Well, even if the power is largely muscular in origin, it is still power.
But it's not the kind of power we try to develope in Aikido.
There is always one with stronger muscles.
For one who has a strong muscular body by nature it's easy to smash people to the ground.
But where is his effort to encrease?

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
I see. So, this makes it all right for Takeda to do the same?
I don't think he can do the same as Ueshiba.

What I wanted to say is, by watching a video it's not easy to decide if it's real power what you see, even if it looks "hard".

Real good swordsman never swing their sword in a way that it looks fast, good martial artists don't act looking strong.
Budo is not viewy.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:27 PM   #27
Jonathan
Dojo: North Winnipeg Aikikai
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 265
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Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda, 2004

Quote:
But it's not the kind of power we try to develope in Aikido.
There is always one with stronger muscles.
For one who has a strong muscular body by nature it's easy to smash people to the ground.
But where is his effort to encrease?
I wasn't suggesting that muscular power was the only - or the best - sort of power to develop in Aikido. But muscular power is, regardless, still power. Smashing a person down with external, muscular power may not be as efficient as doing so with internal power, but the person is smashed down powerfully all the same. So, when I see someone crushed into the ground with a powerful throw I am able to acknowledge that the throw was truly powerful. But when I see uke throwing himself and in doing so exaggerating the power of nage's throw, I naturally tend to wonder, not just about the power, but about the general martial usefulness of what nage is doing.

Quote:
What I wanted to say is, by watching a video it's not easy to decide if it's real power what you see, even if it looks "hard".
See above.

Quote:
Real good swordsman never swing their sword in a way that it looks fast, good martial artists don't act looking strong.
Budo is not viewy.
Sorry to be disagreeable, but have you ever watched Tetsuzan Kuroda doing swordwork? The man is lightning fast with a sword! And he is very highly regarded internationally as an extremely skilled swordsman. The best judoka in the world typically exude strength and power- and you can certainly see these things in their throwing! I don't think, then, that I can agree with you that Budo is not "viewy."

Regards,

Jon.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 01-28-2015, 05:03 AM   #28
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
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Posts: 203
Germany
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Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda, 2004

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
The best judoka in the world typically exude strength and power- and you can certainly see these things in their throwing!
So watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46veLgINFjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vqM_lgVzIM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aS6Bgk9aws

This is one of the best Judoka the world has ever seen.
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Old 01-28-2015, 09:13 AM   #29
MRoh
Location: Düsseldorf
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Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda, 2004

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
Smashing a person down with external, muscular power may not be as efficient as doing so with internal power, but the person is smashed down powerfully all the same. So, when I see someone crushed into the ground with a powerful throw I am able to acknowledge that the throw was truly powerful.
So how does he get into the position to throw powerful, and how does the ability to throw hard helps him to get into a good position for doing so in a fight? Aren't there various abilities we have to develop?

Normally all we do in Aikido is keiko, or kata. We don't really fight. In all the keiko we do in aikido, we rely on cooperation of uke. In which way uke is cooperating, depends on the way of practice and which requirements are placed on the behavior of uke by the respective sensei.

No aikido shihan ore any other teacher I have seen told any of his students to attack as he wishes or to try do do all he can to knock him out. Most of them try to teach their students some important aspects of aikido as they themselves understood. For to realize their method of teaching they normally need the support of their students. That's the reason why the most senseis prefer uke who know what they want to teach and are able to move in a way the method requires. usually dan-grades of their own shool.
So if one tries to develop powerful throw, he needs one who places himself at his disposal.
For another one who teaches to develop perfect blending and timing and who presents a method to develop this (also if he himself would not have need for that behaviour) , the demands made on his uke changes.

We should try to accept that there are different ways to train, and from time to time it is neccessary to departure from familiar thought and behaviour patterns. That's the reason why I visit such seminars from time to time.
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:27 AM   #30
Jonathan
Dojo: North Winnipeg Aikikai
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 265
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Re: YouTube: Yoshinobu Takeda, 2004

Quote:
So how does he get into the position to throw powerful, and how does the ability to throw hard helps him to get into a good position for doing so in a fight? Aren't there various abilities we have to develop?
Yes, there are.

Quote:
Normally all we do in Aikido is keiko, or kata. We don't really fight. In all the keiko we do in aikido, we rely on cooperation of uke. In which way uke is cooperating, depends on the way of practice and which requirements are placed on the behavior of uke by the respective sensei.
Yes.

Quote:
No aikido shihan ore any other teacher I have seen told any of his students to attack as he wishes or to try do do all he can to knock him out.
That's always kinda' bugged me, actually. Especially when Aikido is presented as a martial art.

Quote:
Most of them try to teach their students some important aspects of aikido as they themselves understood. For to realize their method of teaching they normally need the support of their students. That's the reason why the most senseis prefer uke who know what they want to teach and are able to move in a way the method requires. usually dan-grades of their own shool.
Yes, I quite understand all this. I have been doing Aikido for twenty-five years.

Quote:
So if one tries to develop powerful throw, he needs one who places himself at his disposal.
For another one who teaches to develop perfect blending and timing and who presents a method to develop this (also if he himself would not have need for that behaviour) , the demands made on his uke changes.
Uh huh.

Quote:
We should try to accept that there are different ways to train, and from time to time it is neccessary to departure from familiar thought and behaviour patterns. That's the reason why I visit such seminars from time to time.
Well, I don't think I ever mandated that anyone should practice in any particular way. I just remarked initially that I don't think martial artists from other kinds of martial arts would regard what Takeda sensei is doing in the video clip as particularly martially effective.

I have no issue whatever with trying new things that challenge one's thinking and behaviour (only to a certain point, of course). I have been working over the last five years or so to make my Aikido more martially effective, but this has required that I look very critically at the classical Aikido I was taught and practiced for some twenty years and recognize that much of it is quite useless in a fight. So, I get the whole "challenge your thinking" stuff.

Regards,

Jon.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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