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Old 07-02-2007, 03:10 AM   #101
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
So sad... only one poster see has the light-heartedness to see the humour. My career as a comedian will be short-lived indeed.

James, there are no good or bad post. Only those that can be made fun of or not. IMO, your topic falls under the former catergory.

M. Ueshiba once said, when training in aikido, trained with a happy heart. So lighten up my Shodokan friend, it'll do your aikido and cardio-vascular health some good.

In case you are implying that I don't contribute good posts, with 800++ post to my name, I am sure not all are rubbish; I hope anyway.

Boon.
If only one poster saw the humour, perhaps its an indication of something.
Every post can be made fun of - I could for instance, rip some of yours to shreds. But its not a very good contribution is it? If Ive taken the time to start a thread for discussion at least try to contribute something before making your "jokes".
And Im not training presently, Im on the internet. But both my cardio vascular health and my aikido are just fine thanks, my Yoshinkan friend.
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Old 07-02-2007, 04:42 AM   #102
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Well I like Xu's attempts at humor.

I'm also not really sure what the point of the thread is.

Ueshiba defined his art and was able to attract some remarkable people in their own right. Some of these people had the background, confidence and experience to point out what they thought were short comings of Ueshiba M. and still consider him worthy of the student-teacher relationship.

Ohba H., a powerful judoka, decided to attack Ueshiba for real in Manchuria. He thought Ueshiba's technique was a bit stiff but said he knew then that he was in the presence of a master.

Year's later Tomiki K. critisized Ueshiba M. for becoming too soft. Another very accomplished judoka even at the point he became Ueshiba's student. He had very strong opinions concerning budo.

These are by no means the only example but I don't think they are critisizing AIkido as an art or looking to who's best or not. What they are doing is evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of a man and discussing what they can get, or have gotten, from him.

Now I've watched the videos (I never saw Ueshiba M. live) and I've felt and watched a number of people whose expression of Aikido radiated far more energy and power. All that tells me though is that video is a lousy media - it says nothing about who's Aikido was better or not.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:20 AM   #103
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

O'SENSEI'S AIKIDO is the only true AIKIDO!!!!!!!!!!! end of story
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:29 AM   #104
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
O'SENSEI'S AIKIDO is the only true AIKIDO!!!!!!!!!!! end of story
Everyone else is just wannabe's and wasting their time.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:31 AM   #105
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Everyone else is just wannabe's and wasting their time.
hey! I resemble that remark...

However, so as not to be accused of unwarranted jocularity (obviously now becoming a sin on aikiweb for some reason) I will join in on this odd topic - my true answer is "who cares?"

However, If really, really pushed I would have to answer that yes his aikido must have been the best, but you could also say his aikido was also the worst. My tortured reasoning behind this is you can blame both the best and worst of any style straight back onto the founder of a system, so if you're praising the student, you're praising the teacher, equally the reverse is sadly true.
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:41 AM   #106
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
If you believe them to be dillusional or liars, let em know. If you would like to try out your 'martial arts' on them, let it rip. Do some good scientific investigating, roll up your sleeves, and take it on. Kato Shihan may be a good place to start, he's pretty available.
Hmm, I make it a point not to volunteer my teachers for "tests" by strangers.

Hey, that's just me though...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-02-2007, 11:32 AM   #107
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hmm, I make it a point not to volunteer my teachers for "tests" by strangers.

Hey, that's just me though...
Not just you!

I have other problems with the whole "If aikido doesn't work...why don't you attack so-and-so shihan and see how weak it is!" idea, as well.

If an aikidoka said "BJJ sucks", would they be told to go try that on a Gracie? Do you test judo by fighting Mifune? (And so on.) No; you use an average student of equivalent experience.

This whole "aikido is very effective...but only for shihan who have been doing it for 40 years" yarn is absurd.
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Old 07-02-2007, 11:46 AM   #108
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

I also like the "average practitioner" theory. No one is expected to fight Fedor Emelianenko. Substituting your teacher in your place because you don't believe you have the skill is no different.

(Not talking about anyone here in particular, just people who hide behind their shihan)
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:05 PM   #109
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

That's another thing about freeform practice (or, in arts that have it, competition) that's beneficial: it emphasizes that it's not about your teacher, but you. O'sensei cannot do ikkyo for you.
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:07 PM   #110
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

The average practitioner, in aikido as well as in most modern martial arts, is a person who joins a club, spends a few hours per week for a couple years, then quits. Only a very small minority is exposed to, taught, and able to use the principles of their art at a significant level.

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Old 07-02-2007, 12:11 PM   #111
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
The average practitioner, in aikido as well as in most modern martial arts, is a person who joins a club, spends a few hours per week for a couple years, then quits. Only a very small minority is exposed to, taught, and able to use the principles of their art at a significant level.
I have found this to not be 100% true. If you stayed with judo, bjj, boxing, mauy thai, etc for a few years, you would be a serious threat to an untrained combatant. You would know more then enough about the "principles" of your art to apply it. In fact you would of applied those principles hundreds if not thousands of times against someone doing their best to stop you.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-02-2007, 01:03 PM   #112
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

I would like to defend this thread for just a second. This has been one of the best Aikiweb threads I've read in quite some time. I think it was a good choice of topic, with all the O-sensei worshippers out there, and the haters. This thread has, for the most part, had pretty logical posts from some pretty smart people.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I have found this to not be 100% true. If you stayed with judo, bjj, boxing, mauy thai, etc for a few years, you would be a serious threat to an untrained combatant. You would know more then enough about the "principles" of your art to apply it. In fact you would of applied those principles hundreds if not thousands of times against someone doing their best to stop you.
Don,
truer words could not be said. This is the direction I would like to see Aikido take, this nonsense about only being able to use it after 40 or some crazy number of years is foolish. Mastering a technique, yes may take a very long time. To do a form that someone could call "art" may take a lifetime of dedication. But being able to skillfully use the techniques against and untrained attacker shouldn't take more then a year or two of dedicated practice (against resisting partners).

Funny thing about "master Shihan" who have been doing Aikido for 40+ years; they are old. This eliminates the realistic possibility that they are going to actually "fight" someone. This means that we can always scapegoat to our shihan, well if we are a bunch of weak cowards...

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Old 07-02-2007, 02:22 PM   #113
aikilouis
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

The chief principles of aikido are based on two things that require time and dedication to develop, and that constant full opposition training cannot provide by itself : an alternative re-framing of the body (as explained by Mike Sigman for example) and the development of sensitivity and perceptive ability, that Mochizuki sensei calls aiki in this text : http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=369

This is why aikido reveals more depth as years go by. And on a side note, I would not feel comfortable if I had to fight an old "master shihan" like Mochizuki or Shioda sensei (even when they were in their 70s), because you could feel what they did had nothing to do with contests. Shinken shobu meant something to them, and this is more valuable than anything in budo.

As a hobbyist of aikido, I have no claim of proving its validity, all I could do is practice with sincerely interested people and try to transmit the enthusiasm I felt when I discovered its greatest exponents. And if O Sensei's top students (many of whom, experienced in other arts, had elements of comparison) or even people foreign to the art declared publicly that he was a master of budo, that suits me fine.

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Old 07-02-2007, 04:27 PM   #114
Keith R Lee
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I have found this to not be 100% true. If you stayed with judo, bjj, boxing, mauy thai, etc for a few years, you would be a serious threat to an untrained combatant. You would know more then enough about the "principles" of your art to apply it. In fact you would of applied those principles hundreds if not thousands of times against someone doing their best to stop you.
Agreed. If you train in a martial art/combat sport for three years and are not reasonably, martially effective at the end of that time...you're probably not doing a martial art/combat sport. You might call it one, and it might look and feel like one, but it probably isn't.

Keith Lee
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Old 07-02-2007, 09:06 PM   #115
PeterR
 
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Well - I've said it before - if you choose a small set of techniques and a training method focussing on those goals - you can be very effective in a very short time.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-03-2007, 02:19 AM   #116
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Well - I've said it before - if you choose a small set of techniques and a training method focussing on those goals - you can be very effective in a very short time.
Like Aikido?

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Old 07-03-2007, 02:36 AM   #117
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Like Aikido?
Not sure what you are asking - I've detailed my thoughts on the matter in previous threads.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-03-2007, 02:49 AM   #118
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

[quote=Ian Hurst;182384]hey! I resemble that remark...

However, so as not to be accused of unwarranted jocularity (obviously now becoming a sin on aikiweb for some reason) I will join in on this odd topic - my true answer is "who cares?"

QUOTE]

If you dont care for the "odd" topic, feel free not to post
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Old 07-03-2007, 02:52 AM   #119
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
O'SENSEI'S AIKIDO is the only true AIKIDO!!!!!!!!!!! end of story
Please give some more detail on your opinion. Sounds interesting but youve not given us enough to discuss.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:55 AM   #120
happysod
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Apologies to the the other posters for this bit of off-topic, but as it was a rather public admonishment, I felt at least a similar reply was warranted.

Quote:
If you dont care for the "odd" topic, feel free not to post
1. If you're going to quote me, please quote me in full where I believe I fully answered your question within my admittedly limited understanding of your rather vague premise.

2. This is the second time you have felt it imperative to "police" your thread in a rather arrogant manner. Quick reality check here - once you start a thread it is no-longer yours, it belongs to the web-forum and you have neither the moral or actual authority to dictate how it develops or what is posted.

You are of course both encouraged and expected to debate points which are made, but your current methods are more likely to tick the "ignore this poster" box in many peoples minds and I'd suggest you avoid this approach.
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:55 AM   #121
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

James there really isnt much to add to my statement, AIKIDO was developed by O'SENSEI, therefore he is the only one who truly knows what AIKIDO is. We do the techniques of AIKIDO but we really havent figured out what O'SENSEI'S true aims of AIKIDO actually are. I guess you could say that what we do really isnt AIKIDO. IMHO
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Old 07-03-2007, 05:28 AM   #122
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote: View Post
...

2. This is the second time you have felt it imperative to "police" your thread in a rather arrogant manner. Quick reality check here - once you start a thread it is no-longer yours, it belongs to the web-forum and you have neither the moral or actual authority to dictate how it develops or what is posted. .
Maybe James is actually Jun Akiyama incognito, having some fun with us. Come on Jun, stop messing with us will you?

If you are not Jun, stop acting like you have a perennial shodo-tanto stuck up your little 4RS3.

If Ueshiba aikido is the Best, as some poster already mention, we would be heading towards a decline since his death.

If Ueshiba aikido is not the Best, who cares, it is what subsequent generation of his students, that include you James to strive to make it better.

When I started aikido; a nikajo is a nikajo. There were times I thought nikajo was T3H 4W3SOME; now, nikajo is a nikajo.

You a making a mountain out of a molehill.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:32 AM   #123
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote: View Post
Apologies to the the other posters for this bit of off-topic, but as it was a rather public admonishment, I felt at least a similar reply was warranted.

1. If you're going to quote me, please quote me in full where I believe I fully answered your question within my admittedly limited understanding of your rather vague premise.

2. This is the second time you have felt it imperative to "police" your thread in a rather arrogant manner. Quick reality check here - once you start a thread it is no-longer yours, it belongs to the web-forum and you have neither the moral or actual authority to dictate how it develops or what is posted.

You are of course both encouraged and expected to debate points which are made, but your current methods are more likely to tick the "ignore this poster" box in many peoples minds and I'd suggest you avoid this approach.
I did you a favour by NOT quoting you in full. You call me arrogant and yet you start your post with a "who cares who was best" but then feel that even though you have no interest in the post, everyone will have an interest in your opinion? Thats arrogance mate. The premise was deliberatley vague so those with an interest could answer the question as they felt was most appropriate rather than me defining my question to the Nth degree so as to take any fun out of the following debate.
I dont feel it imperative to "police" my thread, Id have done the same if it was someone elses - I just find there nothing more arrogant or intrusive than a poster who jumps into the middle of a thread with a "oh this thread is so beneath me" attitude......and then proceeds to give you his opinion anyway.
As for your last point, Im actively asking you not to post on this thread if you dont have an interest in the subject matter. So feel free to "ignore this poster"
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:44 AM   #124
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
James there really isnt much to add to my statement, AIKIDO was developed by O'SENSEI, therefore he is the only one who truly knows what AIKIDO is. We do the techniques of AIKIDO but we really havent figured out what O'SENSEI'S true aims of AIKIDO actually are. I guess you could say that what we do really isnt AIKIDO. IMHO
So Brian, If you dont mind me asking whats is your goal in practicing AIkido - and Im not being provocative - its a genuine question. Is it to emulate Ueshiba to some extent or create your own understanding of "Aikido" or other?
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:55 AM   #125
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Maybe James is actually Jun Akiyama incognito, having some fun with us. Come on Jun, stop messing with us will you?

If you are not Jun, stop acting like you have a perennial shodo-tanto stuck up your little 4RS3.

When I started aikido; a nikajo is a nikajo. There were times I thought nikajo was T3H 4W3SOME; now, nikajo is a nikajo.

You a making a mountain out of a molehill.

Boon.
I posted a serious question up for debate. You posted a P155 T4KING respone. I gave you some grief for it. Now you accuse me of "having a perennial shodo-tanto stuck up your little 4RS3".
If you want to debate the issue, debate the issue. If you want post fruity responses, dont start moaning when you get one back.
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