Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-11-2004, 04:03 PM   #1
stern9631
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 78
United_States
Offline
Layered training vs Linear training

This is the only way I can think of to characterize my question. Does anyone have an opinion on learning in a layered manner (Meaning: learning Techniques A through G and then adding H through K in order to combine techniques into a logical sequence) or learning in linear fashion (Meaning: learning techniques in the sequence they would actually occur in a confrontation)? I hope that makes sense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2004, 04:59 PM   #2
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
Re: Layered training vs Linear training

I think O Sensei already combined both approaches.

First "typical" confrontation technique being ikkyo, if it fails, nikkyo, if it fails, sankyo, if sankyo fails, reverse into shihonage, if shihonage fails, kaitennage or sumi-otoshi or whatever ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2004, 10:26 AM   #3
Robert Cheshire
 
Robert Cheshire's Avatar
Dojo: Yoseikan Budo/Aikido
Location: Texas
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: Layered training vs Linear training

I have found that, with my students, you teach a core of basics first. Then you show how they connect to each other and/or follow-up if one technique falls or they resist. Then I have them show me ways they connect and flow together. This has helped my students get a better understanding of the techniques and how they fit together.

I, personally, don't like the approach of do "this" then if that doesn't work do "that." Mostly becuase it is too controled in a dojo. If any of my students ever have to defend themself I want them to flow through the techniques on what presents itself rather than "I can only do x to y to z" rather than y to x to z (or whatever).

This of course is my opinion and what has worked in our class. I'd be interested in hearing from others too!

Robert Cheshire
Yoseikan Budo/Aikido
www.yoseikanbudo.us
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2004, 02:14 PM   #4
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Layered training vs Linear training

Jon,

Do you mean "techniques" as Aleksey has interpreted or do you mean the various points in a singular technique? For example, in ikkyo/ikkajo: inviting an attack, meeting the attack, blending with the attack, redirecting the attack, and finally pinning the attacker. This would change my answer to your question.

Charles Hill
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2004, 03:51 PM   #5
stern9631
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 78
United_States
Offline
Re: Layered training vs Linear training

I was speaking of full techniques within Aikido, but I guess I am comparing the longer techniques in Aikido to shorter techniqes in other arts. These other techniques would include passing, destructions, punching and trapping. So, your input on the smaller components of Aikido would be great!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2004, 08:28 AM   #6
stern9631
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 78
United_States
Offline
Re: Layered training vs Linear training

Here is the root of my question. Does Aikido have what may be considered empty handed kata?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2004, 10:31 AM   #7
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
United_States
Offline
Re: Layered training vs Linear training

Depends on the style and on how you define kata. Shodokan and Yoshinkan aikido both have empty hand kata, and in the yoshinkan, the core 150 basic technques were looked upon as kata by Gozo Shioda Sensei (founder of yoshinkan aikido). He speaks about this in some of his books. There is also a kata which incorporates the kihon dosa (basic movements) and certain aikido techniques (sokomen iriminage, hijiate, kokyu nage, kotegaishi, shihonage [ichi/ni -- omote/ura]).

Now some might not like the application of the word 'kata' in aikido. Ueshiba Sensei was known to have not liked classical kata at least, but for us mortals we often find it necessary. There probably should be a distinction made between the classical kata in the japanese arts, kata as is seen and used in aikido, and one man kata that you see in karate and similar arts. Three different things in my opinion. Here is one very experienced person's opinion on kata in aikido...good place to start:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...highlight=kata

You can also do searches on aikido journal and e-budo, as well as here to find other perspectives. It's an interesting subject...

Best of Luck,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 08-16-2004 at 10:37 AM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2004, 01:31 PM   #8
Sharon Seymour
Dojo: AikidoKIDS! & Katsujinken Dojo, Prescott Arizona
Location: Arizona
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 57
Offline
Re: Layered training vs Linear training

Hmmm .... longer techniques? My experience of Aikido is the immediacy of kuzushi (balance breaking, or, as Jun so helpfully pointed out, undermining the structure). Once this is done various techniques become available to complete the neutralization of the attack, but the effectiveness of the attack is finished.

These thoughts were stimulated by a seminar at our dojo last week in which the instructor (a professional bodyguard with dan rank in karate as well as Aikido) emphasized kuzushi as the critical element of any technique.

Once kihon waza are clear, perhaps henka waza could be introduced in combinations to teach awareness of openings and resistance, leading eventually to the student's ability to spontaneously respond with the technique most suited to the situation.

Thought-provoking questions. Thanks for bringing it up.

"There is only one technique. I just don't get it yet."
Sharon

-----
There is more to balance than not falling over.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2004, 01:38 PM   #9
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Layered training vs Linear training

I think that when it is said that Morihei Ueshiba didn't like kata or thought that Aikido doesn't have kata, we in the West think of kata in terms of what we know as karate kata, a prearranged set of techniques. However, it seems that what the Founder meant by kata was any movement prearranged. Of course, it is through kata training that we overcome the problems of kata. In one of Trevor Leggert's books, he writes of a martial artist years ago who was attacked in a kitchen and successfully fended off the attack with a lid from a pot. Mr. Leggert writes that the ryuha that developed around this individual still includes a kata where the defender uses a pot lid. The point was that the person acted spontaneously but his students fossilized it by making another form. I think this is what the Founder meant, true Aikido is spontaneous and perfect in response to that specific situation.

So,
Does aikido have emptyhand kata? Of course, yes. Ikkajo, shihonage, iriminage, and so on.
Does aikido have emptyhand kata? Of course, no. Aikido is Takemusu Aiki, martial responses that happen creatively and spontaneously.

Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2004, 08:56 AM   #10
stern9631
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 78
United_States
Offline
Re: Layered training vs Linear training

What about paired empty handed kata with offensive and defensive components? It seems some of the weapons kata (ex: jo) have a series of movements with offensive and defensive elements involved.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2004, 10:11 AM   #11
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
United_States
Offline
Re: Layered training vs Linear training

Kihon dosa to kanren waza (the one I mentioned above) has both offense (in terms of grabs to the wrists) and defense (techniques). Obviously, the kihon waza (150 basic techs) have many more attacks.

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Beginners Retention Rates akiy Teaching 45 04-05-2006 11:13 PM
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 05:20 PM
Rank-Aikido (pun intended) senshincenter General 88 11-21-2005 02:55 PM
committed attack/sensitive ukemi paradox Janet Rosen Training 30 10-13-2005 07:18 PM
*Really* Tough Training… jxa127 Training 29 05-09-2001 07:49 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:31 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate