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Old 02-08-2008, 12:50 PM   #226
Allen Beebe
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Wonderful! I just tried them and they're a sequential exercise. Very clever. Many thanks.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Mike the sounds are actually normal sequential ordinal referents (in Japanese rather than borrowed and modified Chinese) besides holding the kotodama derived meanings. Not to put a damper on your point of they're being a sequential exercise. BTW, this sequence of recitation is very popular (don't know what else to call it) in Shinto meditative practice and Shinto derived Shinkoshukyo.

Hmmm now that I think about it . . . it progresses sequentially and then increases exponentially . . . logarithmic spiral? (I'm visualizing tama, shimenawa, komo(?), etc.)

Anyway, I'm talking/thinking beyond my pay grade which is always dangerous!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:55 PM   #227
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
IIRC , this was an interesting read regarding CK and timing of introudction into Omoto / Ueshiba, and mentioned that Omoto followers stopped practicing..

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=256

Interesting timing anyway.
This seems interesting too, but i'm not sure about the veracity of what is said.

http://anne987.blogspot.com/2007/06/...alism-and.html
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Old 02-08-2008, 05:08 PM   #228
Mike Sigman
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Mike the sounds are actually normal sequential ordinal referents (in Japanese rather than borrowed and modified Chinese) besides holding the kotodama derived meanings. Not to put a damper on your point of they're being a sequential exercise. BTW, this sequence of recitation is very popular (don't know what else to call it) in Shinto meditative practice and Shinto derived Shinkoshukyo.

Hmmm now that I think about it . . . it progresses sequentially and then increases exponentially . . . logarithmic spiral? (I'm visualizing tama, shimenawa, komo(?), etc.)

Anyway, I'm talking/thinking beyond my pay grade which is always dangerous!
I could be wrong, Allen, but when I tried them to watch how they affect the dantien/tanden, it seemed fairly sequential. Bearing in mind that I could have screwed up, it seemed fairly straightforward to me. One of the things that I've found over the years is that if something didn't do some functional work, many of the "ritual" things simply faded with time. For instance the "acupuncture" meridians, the "sounds", etc., have a basis in fact. Once again, I could be wrong... let me try it for a few days and I'll comment on QiJin.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-08-2008, 05:51 PM   #229
Allen Beebe
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I could be wrong, Allen, but when I tried them to watch how they affect the dantien/tanden, it seemed fairly sequential. Bearing in mind that I could have screwed up, it seemed fairly straightforward to me. One of the things that I've found over the years is that if something didn't do some functional work, many of the "ritual" things simply faded with time. For instance the "acupuncture" meridians, the "sounds", etc., have a basis in fact. Once again, I could be wrong... let me try it for a few days and I'll comment on QiJin.

Best.

Mike
Alright, I'll look forward to it!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 02-08-2008, 05:56 PM   #230
Rev.K. Barrish
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Mr. Sigman wrote,

“Wonderful! I just tried them and they're a sequential exercise. Very clever. Many thanks”

thank you…basically the CHINKON-NO-GYO is practiced to calm the mind, condition/ tune the soul and raise spirituality as you intone: HI FU MI YO I MU NA YA KO TO (lit: 1 thru 10)…the thinking is that to practice repeatedly with FURUBE-NO-KAMU-WAZA (body motion) you can purify and invigorate you body/mind/spirit towards purity and brightness and become more “straightforward”. (cultivate spirituality).

If you ever find yourself in the Pacific Northwest please visit Tsubaki Shrine and experience the Chinkon Gyo-Ho in the Jinja Shinto atmosphere…

Yoroshiku Onegaishimasu
Koichi Barrish
Senior Shinto Priest
Tsubaki America Shrine
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:03 PM   #231
Upyu
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Lawrence Koichi Barrish wrote: View Post
thank you…basically the CHINKON-NO-GYO is practiced to calm the mind, condition/ tune the soul and raise spirituality as you intone: HI FU MI YO I MU NA YA KO TO (lit: 1 thru 10)…the
Mr Barrish,

Any thoughts on how the sounds affect the dantien physically, how they condition it etc?

Rob
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:16 PM   #232
Josh Lerner
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I could be wrong, Allen, but when I tried them to watch how they affect the dantien/tanden, it seemed fairly sequential. Bearing in mind that I could have screwed up, it seemed fairly straightforward to me. One of the things that I've found over the years is that if something didn't do some functional work, many of the "ritual" things simply faded with time. For instance the "acupuncture" meridians, the "sounds", etc., have a basis in fact. Once again, I could be wrong... let me try it for a few days and I'll comment on QiJin.

Best.

Mike
All of which proves that internal training originally comes from Judaism -

Quote:
Joseph Eidelberg, a Jew who once came to Japan and remained for years at a Japanese Shinto shrine, wrote a book entitled "The Japanese and the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel." He wrote that many Japanese words originated from ancient Hebrew. . . .

When we Japanese count, "One, two, three... ten," we sometimes say:

"Hi, fu, mi, yo, itsu, mu, nana, ya, kokono, towo."

This is a traditional expression, but its meaning is unknown it is thought of as being Japanese.
It has been said that this expression originates from an ancient Japanese Shinto myth. In the myth, the female god, called "Amaterasu," who manages the world's sunlight, once hid herself in a heavenly cave, and the world became dark. Then, according to the oldest book of Japanese history, the priest called "Koyane" prayed with words before the cave and in front of the other gods to have "Amaterasu" come out. Although the words said in the prayer are not written, a legend says that these words were, "Hi, fu, mi...."

"Amaterasu" is hiding in a heavenly cave; "Koyane" is praying and "Uzume" is dancing.

Joseph Eidelberg stated that this is a beautiful Hebrew expression, if it is supposed that there were some pronunciation changes throughout history. These words are spelled:
"Hifa mi yotsia ma na'ne ykakhena tavo."

This means: "The beautiful (Goddess). Who will bring her out? What should we call out (in chorus) to entice her to come?" This surprisingly fits the situation of the myth.
Moreover, we Japanese not only say, "Hi, hu, mi...," but also say with the same meaning:

"Hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, yottsu, itsutsu, muttsu, nanatsu, yattsu, kokonotsu, towo."

Here, "totsu" or "tsu" is put to each of "Hi, hu, mi..." as the last part of the words. But the last "towo" (which means ten) remains the same. "Totsu" could be the Hebrew word "tetse," which means, "She comes out. " And "tsu" may be the Hebrew word "tse" which means "Come out."
Eidelberg believed that these words were said by the gods who surrounded the priest, "Koyane." That is, when "Koyane" first says, "Hi," the surrounding gods add, "totsu" (She comes out) in reply, and secondly, when "Koyane" says, "Fu," the gods add "totsu" (tatsu), and so on. In this way, it became "Hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu...."
However, the last word, "towo," the priest, "Koyane," and the surrounding gods said together. If this is the Hebrew word "tavo," it means, "(She) shall come." When they say this, the female god, "Amaterasu," came out.

"Hi, fu, mi..." and "Hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu..." later were used as the words to count numbers.
- from http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/~magi9/isracame.htm

It must be true; it's on the internet.

Josh
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:40 PM   #233
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Too funny. But kind of a stretch.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-08-2008 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 02-09-2008, 08:39 AM   #234
Rev.K. Barrish
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Mr. Robert John wrote:

"Any thoughts on how the sounds affect the dantien physically, how they condition it etc?

arigatou desu….my thinking is that hara is physically centripetalized (made more dense) and also receives correction in alignment…the furube no kamu waza (Chinkon movement) begins as largish movements that really "stir" up the physical and energy body…then move on to smaller movements with higher (more refined) vibration that fine tune the alignment of hara in respect to its position supported by earth and receiving Ki of heaven…micro shifts in alignment become very important in entraining with different Ki…..the Hi-Fu-Mi norito is actually an integral part of Senyusai -- the process of transferring the mitma from the body to the Mitamashiro (memorial plaque) during the Shinsosai (Shinto Funeral) …it is really a profound practice…..I must close now, my shrine is very busy today…

yoroshiku onegaishimasu
Koichi Barrish
Senior Shinto Priest
Tsubaki America Grand Shrine
www.TsubakiShrine.org
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tsubakiko/
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Old 02-09-2008, 10:00 AM   #235
Allen Beebe
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

For those that want to go there:

The Lost Tribes Where Are They Today?
For the week ending 28 August 2004 / 11 Elul 5764
by Rabbi Yirmiyahu Ullman - www.rabbiullman.com
(http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1817)
". . . The last group that lives in areas mentioned in our sources is the Chiang-Min, on the border between Tibet and China in the mountainous area of Sichuan. They appear more Semitic than Oriental, and have a tradition of having migrated from the West after a journey of 3 years and 3 months. They claim to descend from Abraham, and their ancestor had 12 sons. They believe in one all-powerful god called the "Father of Heaven" who they refer to in times of trouble by the tetragrammaton. He watches over the world, judges fairly, rewards the righteous, punishes the wicked, accepts repentance, and gives atonement. In the past, they had written scrolls of parchment and books, but they were lost. It is forbidden to worship foreign gods or idols upon punishment of death. They also have priestly and sacrificial services reminiscent of those of the Torah, using an earthen altar that must not be fashioned by metal tools, where the priest places his hand on the head of the sacrifice.

Thus far, we have located peoples that may be remnants of the Lost Tribes, living in places mentioned in our sources such as Ethiopia, Iran/Afghanistan, India and China. In the next installment, well explore the possibility of the Lost Tribes reaching a place not mentioned in our sources, namely Japan, and well conclude with a discussion of whether the Lost Tribes will ever be re-united with the Jewish people.

Sources:

North American Conference on Ethiopian Jewry Arimasa Kubo, The Ten Lost Tribes of Israel in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, Myanmar, and China
Rabbi Eliyahu Avichail, Amishav Organization"

and

THE LOST TRIBES -- PART 3 :
Will they Return?

by Rabbi Yirmiyahu Ullman
(http://www.torahlearningcenter.com/jhq/question292.html)

". . . In the first installment we saw that according to our sources, the Lost Tribes were exiled south to Ethiopia, and East through Syria, Iraq, Iran, India and China. In the second installment we located peoples that may be remnants of the Lost Tribes living in those places and explored whether they or their customs are Jewish. In this final installment, we'll explore the possibility of the Lost Tribes reaching Japan and conclude with a discussion of whether the Lost Tribes will ever be re-united with the Jewish people.

While there is no explicit mention in our sources of the Tribes reaching Japan, the Japanese/Shinto tradition seems to have some remarkable similarities with Judaism.

For one, a certain Japanese mythology closely resembles the Biblical chronology: The Patriarch of the Japanese nation comes down from heaven, in place of "the other" while he is preparing. [Jacob received the birthright instead of Esau, and the blessing while Esau was preparing.] The Patriarch falls in love with a beautiful woman but her father refuses unless he marries her older, less desirable sister. [Lavan prevented Jacob from marrying Rachel until he married Leah first.] The Patriarch and his desired wife have a son who is bullied by his older brother and forced to the country of a sea god. [Jacob and Rachel had Joseph who is sold by his older brothers to Egypt on the Nile.] There, he attains power with which he troubles his older brother concerning famine, but eventually forgives him. [Joseph rose to power and tried his brothers regarding the famine until he forgave them.] In the meantime, the Patriarch marries the daughter of the sea god, having a son whose 4 th son conquers Japan. [Joseph married Osnat, daughter of Potifar, and had Ephraim, whose 4 th son Joshua conquered Israel.]

Also, the Shinto festival of Ontohsai resembles the Sacrifice of Isaac. In the Biblical event, Abraham leads his son up Mount Moria and binds him as a sacrifice on a wooden altar. While the knife is in Abraham's hand, an angel intervenes and instructs him to offer a ram in Isaac's stead. Similarly, in the Shinto festival, a boy is led to the top of a mountain called "Moriya-san". He is tied to a wooden beam on a bamboo carpet as a priest symbolically approaches with a knife. Then a messenger appears, the boy is released and a sacrifice provided by the "god of moriya" is offered in his stead.

Furthermore, a Shinto shrine resembles the ancient Jewish Temple. The entrance to the shrine is in the East while the shrine is in the West. There is a laver near the entrance for washing hands and feet. The shrine is comprised of a courtyard, an inner holy section, and an innermost holy of holies. The holy of holies is elevated above the holy section by stairs. Worshipers pray in front of the inner holy section, but only the priest can enter the holy of holies, and only at special times.

A Japanese Omikoshi, resembles the Ark of Covenant. It is similar in size, overlain with gold, with gold winged figures on top. It is carried on the shoulders with poles, while accompanied with song and dance. The carriers must immerse themselves beforehand, and a special ceremony whereby the bearers carry the ark through a river is reminiscent of the Biblical description of the Jews carrying the ark through the Jordan river on their way into Israel.

There are other similarities as well. The Japanese Shinto priest's robe often has cords hanging from its corners, resembling Jewish tzitzit. Also, a certain type of Shinto priest called a yamabushi wears what's called a token, a small black box on the forehead between the eyes, tied with a black cord behind the head. This closely resembles Jewish tefillin. Interestingly, a Shinto legend tells of a ninja who sought a certain yamabushi named Tengu in order to receive supernatural powers. Tengu gave him a "tora-no-maki", a scroll of the torah, which gave him special powers. Also, mizura, an old Samurai hairstyle resembles Jewish side locks. A statue of a Japanese Samurai dating from the 5th century shows long, curly locks of hair in front of the ears.

After we've observed all these disparate peoples, most of whom don't even consider themselves to be Jewish, it's natural to ask whether the Lost Tribes will ever be re-united with the Jewish people. Consider the words of three of the greatest prophets:

Isaiah 11: "And it shall come to pass...that G-d...will recover the remnant of His people, that shall remain, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea." Jeremiah 23: "The day comes...that they shall no longer say: 'As G-d lives, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt'; but...'that brought up...the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all the countries where I had driven them'; and they shall dwell in their own land." Ezekiel 37: "Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph...and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick...I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land...and they shall be no longer two nations, nor shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more."

That the Lost Tribes will be redeemed is echoed in Talmudic sources as well: "To those who were exiled to the Sambatyon, G-d will say, "Return!" To those exiled beyond the Sambatyon, He will say, "Become revealed!" Regarding those who were exiled to Rivlata, G-d will make underground passageways through which they will come to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem (Midrash Yalkut Shimoni, Isaiah 49). The Mishna in Sanhedrin brings differing opinions, though: "Rabbi Akiva says, the Ten Tribes will not return as it states, 'and He threw them into foreign lands like this day' [meaning] just as the day goes and does not return, they will also go and not return. Rabbi Eliezer argues, 'and He threw them into foreign lands like this day' [means] just as the day first becomes dark and then becomes light, so too the Ten Tribes who are now in darkness will in the future come to light."

The opinion of Rabbi Akiva is difficult to understand. How can he contradict the Prophets? And how is it possible that the Tribes, so integral to the Jewish people, will not be part of the redemption? The answer is based on the statement of the Sages that individuals of each of the Lost Tribes later joined the Jews who were exiled to Babylon (Megilla 14a). Accordingly, these prophecies reveal that the Tribes will be reconstituted from within the Jews who later returned to Israel. However, those who remained among the non-Jews will not return. Rabbi Eliezer, however, is of the opinion that even those who remained in exile will ultimately convert back to Judaism and rejoin the Jewish people.

So explains Tiferet Israel (Sanhedrin 10:3), "It seems to me that Jeremiah returned many of them [to Judah] as we see in Megilla and Erechin, only that many remained mixed among the Gentiles. We know that many of them are in India, China and Ethiopia. They know only that they are Jews and they circumcise themselves and keep a few commandments. However, their worship of G-d is mixed with idol worship. On this point Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Eliezer disagree: whether in the future those who remained inter-mixed will return in strength under the wings of the Divine Presence. Because some of them are absolute idol worshippers, and have forgotten the name of Israel, yet some Jewish customs remain from their ancestors, as in the case of the people in Afghan, who some wise geographers see as forgotten Jews. [Rabbi Akiva is of the opinion that such people will not return to Israel, while Rabbi Eliezer argues that] also in Egypt all were idol-worshippers (Sanhedrin 103b), nevertheless G-d in his mercy opened their eyes by force and redeemed them [so here, such peoples will be returned to Israel].

May we merit seeing the Final Redemption speedily in our days!

Sources:

Arimasa Kubo, The Israelites Came To Ancient Japan
Marvin Tokayer, The Ten Lost Tribes of Israel"

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 02-09-2008, 10:09 AM   #236
Allen Beebe
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

As a further aside Rev. Paul Kikamoto of Seicho no Ie (Former head of the English Branch of Seicho no Ie if I'm not mistaken) personally related to me (before his passing) of his personal interest in this Judaism/Shinto connection theory and provided more circumstantial evidence for his interest.

Seicho no Ie is an off-shoot of Omoto Kyo (Taniguchi Masaharu, the founder of Seicho no Ie was an editor for Omoto Kyo [which is saying something by the way!] leaving Omoto after the first or second crack down . . . I can't remember and am too lazy to look.

I believe Seicho no Ie members had some involvement in bringing Aikido to Hawaii.

Omoto Kyo and it's off-shoot groups are quite intermingled with Aikido due to personal relationships with Ueshiba Morihei.

(FWIW, Taniguchi Masaharu was quite "hawkish" in his writings during WWII BTW. This (not too surprisingly) isn't evident in his works translated into English.)

Last edited by Allen Beebe : 02-09-2008 at 10:12 AM.

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 02-09-2008, 10:16 AM   #237
Allen Beebe
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

One more connection: It is my understanding that Goi Masahisa was a Seicho no Ie teacher before forming his own group.

So one can see the interconnectedness of these folks.

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 02-09-2008, 03:26 PM   #238
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
One more connection: It is my understanding that Goi Masahisa was a Seicho no Ie teacher before forming his own group.

So one can see the interconnectedness of these folks.
Hello Allen,

Goi Masahisa was born on the same day and month in the year as Masaharu Taniguchi--events thought bound to be of some significance. He was initially influenced by Mokichi Okada, also a member of Oomoto, but who left to form his own group called Sekai Kyuuseikyou. After spending some years in Seichou no Ie, Goi left because they did not deal with 'bad thoughts' effectively enough.

Have you come across the writings of Nobutaka Inoue, especially his massive Shin Shuukyou Jiten? On p.75 there is a chart of all the offshoots of Oomoto, about 25 in all.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 02-09-2008, 04:58 PM   #239
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
As a further aside Rev. Paul Kikamoto of Seicho no Ie ... of his personal interest in this Judaism/Shinto connection theory and provided more circumstantial evidence for his interest.
One doesn't have to ascribe a specific historical continuity to ideas of this type for the many valid comparisons to be useful or relevant. It may in fact be much harder to prove any specific connections because the connections are more likely to be quite broad in both time and content.

After all, the whole idea of kotodama is Tantric in origin through Kukai and the kana, from that into later Shinto revival and the renewed philological approach of Norinaga. The tantric mantra teachings were deeply affected by Greek ideas of the Logos (and related ideas about modes of music and chant). These are a common heritage of classical paganism, Diaspora Judaism, Medieval Islam and Christianity from its inception. Tantra even has the curious aspect of a type of "baptism" initiation, a common aspect of Christianity, and in other guises -- it remains in more conservative Judaism today in the mikva, and obviously in the water purification misogi in Shinto.

At least three nonexclusive reasons exist for the correspondences:

1) Human nature, despite varying cultures, is not really that different and we tend to look to similar universal symbols for similar purposes without having to posit direct influence in suggestive particulars for even fairly specific correspondences to be seen as natural.

2) This schema of ideas (and others) actually did wash back and forth along what later became the silk road routes. We now know these cultural (and genetic) connections along this corridor go back continuously for more than three thousand years from the Taklamakan mummies. When Lao Tsu mysteriously "went West" he actually had some fairly interesting places to be going to. The same would have equally true of Jesus if he happened to wander East between ages thirteen to thirty.

3) There is an underlying reality to all of these experiences which, shared or not in its discovery or further transmission between cultures, is expressed in terms that are similar because they relate to the observations of that same reality; the Catholic Church has held this for millennia from its own perspective in its teachings on "semina verbi" (Seeds of the Word) -- again touching the Logos doctrine that predated (and in Christian eyes, anticipated) Christian theology.

I personally do not think that it matters much which of the above one holds to. There is good reason for one to accept the evidence suggesting that all of them are a part of the truth, regardless how one's cultural or religious leanings cause one to interpret the further meaning of the particulars.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:00 PM   #240
Allen Beebe
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Allen,

Goi Masahisa was born on the same day and month in the year as Masaharu Taniguchi--events thought bound to be of some significance. He was initially influenced by Mokichi Okada, also a member of Oomoto, but who left to form his own group called Sekai Kyuuseikyou. After spending some years in Seichou no Ie, Goi left because they did not deal with 'bad thoughts' effectively enough.

Have you come across the writings of Nobutaka Inoue, especially his massive Shin Shuukyou Jiten? On p.75 there is a chart of all the offshoots of Oomoto, about 25 in all.

Best wishes,

PAG
Hi Peter,

Very interesting. No, I don't recall reading Nobutaka Inoue but his Shin Shuukyou Jiten certainly sounds interesting. To be honest, I can only read about that sort of thing so long before I kind of get nauseated , just isn't my cup of tea. But Aikido history is so immersed in the stuff one can hardly avoid a certain amount research in the area.

Very nice to hear from you!,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:25 AM   #241
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Hi Peter,

Very interesting. No, I don't recall reading Nobutaka Inoue but his Shin Shuukyou Jiten certainly sounds interesting. To be honest, I can only read about that sort of thing so long before I kind of get nauseated , just isn't my cup of tea. But Aikido history is so immersed in the stuff one can hardly avoid a certain amount research in the area.

Very nice to hear from you!,
Allen
Hello Allen,

My interest in Inoue parallels my interest in Bakumatsu / Meiji / Taishou / Early Showa history, for the columns I am writing. The Shinko Shuukyou appeared in succession at a crossroads in Japanese history and many have similar features. Inoue's work considers them all together and the common features are very striking. I am occasionally visited at home by members of new religions who want to convert me, immediately, if possible. In this context the Aum Shinrikyou phenomenon was something of a replay of the Oomoto Incidents. The most unlikely people became ardent members of Aum Shinri-kyou.

Morihei Ueshiba has been sanitized postwar, to appear eminently sensible, just like all of us who read Aikiweb. This is a great pity and I think we need to make the effort to realize just how otherworldly he really was. From where we are, at Aikiweb, we can wonder quite what he found attractive in someone like Deguchi, who combines acute intelligence with, well, an oddness verging on lunacy. The writings of Daikichi Irokawa are worth reading in this respect, for they show just how much there was a popular revolution in the Meiji Period. None of O Sensei's writings to date give any indication as to how much he was a part of this popular revolution.

Best,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 02-12-2008, 04:42 AM   #242
DH
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Interview with Abe sensei, in which he relates Ueshiba stating he trained chinkon in Hokkaido (this would be during the period he trained with Takeda) before ever meeting Deguchi.

Quote:
Sensei told me about the misogi he did during his stay in Hokkaido as one of the pioneer settlers of Shirataki Village.

"Up there in the winter, in the middle of all that snow, even when there were 20 or 30 centimeters of ice on the river, I did misogi. I did "chinkon" in the snow, too. Every morning I went to the river and scooped up water with a large dipper and so even though the ice was this deep everywhere else, it was thin at my misogi spot."

Just listening to him gave me the chills.

So, O-Sensei practiced misogi even before he entered the Omoto religion. I wonder when it was that Ueshiba Sensei actually began this practice.
Well, I have never heard exactly,
Chronologically
1. Here we see Ueshiba practicing chinkon in Hokkaido but never being noted for his power during this period, while training with some serious heavyweights. In fact it was noted he was all but crushed by Takeda.
2. Years later during Takeda's long stay in Ayabe with Ueshiba training with him daily; he is given aiki and allowed to teach. Omoto followers train with Takeda as well, including Deguchi's daughter.
3. Just after this period Ueshiba is starting to be noticed for his power.

So, Chinkon before Takeda, and before Deguchi. Chinkon after no difference
Takeda arrives to train his pupil..power happens. Deguchi is so imressed he suggests Takeda change the name of his art. Interestingly, were Daito ryu in fact an old koryu, would Deguchi had been so casual about suggesting a name change? Would Takeda have listened?
Anyway, to the point who impressed whom, with what?
Oddly enough Takeda was noted for admiring power and skill and spoke favorably of those who had it-note his recognition of some Okinawan Karateka's power-yet he makes no mention whatsoever of any power among those in Ayabe.
Also of interest are Takeda's other eimeiroku entries of the Omoto believers in Ayabe who trained with him during his stay there. Among whom were Army colonels, lieutenant commanders, two captains, a Doctor, a Taniguchi Masaharu-founder of the seicho-no-ie (a religious movement developed in 1930) a Kendo master and… Deguchi's daughter Asano. I guess this gives further credence to Deguchi calling Takeda's art wonderful, and he suggesting the "aiki" of Daito ryu should be part of the name not just in the syllabus. What did he see, take part in or witness to engender this historic event?
Again, just who impressed whom, with what?

Last edited by DH : 02-12-2008 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:26 AM   #243
Mike Sigman
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Did I ever mention the story of the college professor who spent forty years of his life trying to prove that "The Illiad" was not written by Homer, but by another Greek with the same name?
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:47 AM   #244
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Rev. Barrish,

Is there a reason (maybe more than one) that the man and woman breathing go opposite?

Thanks
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Old 02-12-2008, 08:48 AM   #245
DH
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Did I ever mention the story of the college professor who spent forty years of his life trying to prove that "The Illiad" was not written by Homer, but by another Greek with the same name?
Yup. You should reread it and take it to heart. This constant search for *other* sources of his power, and attributing it to things that were nothing more than additives to his DR regimen is about as sad. Looking to those things as his *source material* fifty years out is about as hopeless an endevour

I'm a fan too. But Ueshiba's power points to Takeda. The mystery and real research is in him Ueshiba is but one player in a small cast of giants. And not even the best according to those who knew them both.

Everyone is speculating on time frames and training methods.This is more grist for the mill.
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:27 PM   #246
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It's the same old song, but with a different beat since you been gone

Once upon a time there was a little boy named Massimo. He heard Caruso on the gramaphone and wanted to be an opera singer. He sang Caruso's arias over and over, imitating everything down to the scratches on the records. He had talent, but did not make a lovely sound. Oh, those scratches! Once day he met Pavarotti. "Ai, bellisimmo!" he exclaimed. "My eyes are opened to the essence of true opera!" He studied and studied and soon could raise a joyful noise. He learned the secret breath techniques of bel canto, and how to project the voice. But eventually, he was repelled. Pavarotti was a glutton, and demanded whole ducks, dripping in fat, and bottles of fine wine, one after another, as he bawled corrections on the young man's legato passages. Finally the young man struck out on his own.
At the same time, there were other young men, for Pavarotti had a number of them under his aegis (not for any tawdry reasons, he liked to teach and he also liked roast duck and wine, and young men were a great way to get all he lived for). One of them, Salvatore, at a young age, penetrated into the essence of Pavarotti's phenomenal sound, and then left, isolating himself for 20+ years, singing alone - eventually getting a small group of fanatic disciples who were forbidden to ever make foreign tours. EVER! EVER! EVER!
A third, Alessandro, stayed home - sang in the kitchen and in the shower - and had local students.
The first young man became a star. As he did so, he decided that, in order to please a public where there were no microphones, he had to increase his vocal power and he acquired new methods that Pavarotti never taught. NEVER NEVER NEVER! Now he could sing in stadiums with his phenomenal breath power. Some said he corrupted the techniques of his master, others that he went beyond, and Massimo - he didn't care. He wore velvet morning jackets in the afternoon and drank one flute of fine champagne in the evening.
The second young man, Salvatore alone in his room, could hear all the praise, and cursed Massimo, furious that he would waste time on breathing exercises to increase the power of the voice as stage presence and purity of sound was ALL. Not that he ever appeared on the stage. Critics mentioned Salvatore in quiet tones, recalling patches of musics they heard through the cracks in the windows of his home. Some asserted that he was the purest musician of the age, who had developed his own methods to make music that caused angels to fall from the sky and housewives to leave their husbands and children and throw themselves in the nearest pond to bathe, nude but for bustiers, in the summer heat. But all this was rumor, really. Few knew how Salvatore could sing, and only fewer learned his secrets to pure tone. Furthermore, reports indicated that most of his students' singing was insipid in the extreme, that only the utterly obsessed could break through fatuity into sonic ecstasy.
And all the while, Massimo whipped up the crowds - he was compared to Bocelli, the darling of public television fundraisers. No longer purely classical, unable to sing a complete opera, Massimo dueted with Barbara Streisand at the Hollywood bowl. When asked how he developed his phenomenal pipes, he clearly, repeatedly, openly said that Pavarotti was his teacher, but that he, tired of lurking in dank water to secure one more duck for his teacher's gluttonous maw, struck out on his own, found new teachers and methods to augment what he'd learned, breath control in particular, and thus, he stands today at the Grammy's - little Massimo - tears streaming down his cheeks, no longer a peasant, but royalty of a new age.
All the while, Alessandro watches on TV, happily singing along with Massimo on the screen, the very archetype of his master, Pavarotti, without the grease on his chin and wine stains on his pants. His children and neighbors exclaim, "It should have been you, 'Sandro! Your sound isn't so big, but it's gold to his silver." He laughs and simply says, "I like it here. Massimo always wanted the bright lights and abrasive, politically left lounge singers."
At the same time, Salvatore lurked outside the theater, snarling, "It should have been me, it should have been me." He was waiting for a chance, to jump in Massimo's face and suddenly sing a perfect high C, hold it so long that Massimo was shrivel in shame. Sadly Massimo left by another exit.
Recently, a bootleg copy of Salvatore's music has appeared on e-bay. It was taped on a cassette recorder, pressed against the wall of his home, half a century old. It is an eerie tape - amidst the hiss of the tape, and the snarling of neighborhood dogs, you can hear tones to make you weep. This tape is restricted to buyers over the age of 30 years of age - those younger do not have the maturity to appreciate what, sadly, was withheld from the world.

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Old 02-12-2008, 12:40 PM   #247
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Re: It's the same old song, but with a different beat since you been gone

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Once upon a time there was a little boy named Massimo. He heard Caruso on the gramaphone and wanted to be an opera singer. He sang Caruso's arias over and over, imitating everything down to the scratches on the records. He had talent, but did not make a lovely sound. Oh, those scratches! Once day he met Pavarotti. "Ai, bellisimmo!" he exclaimed. "My eyes are opened to the essence of true opera!" He studied and studied and soon could raise a joyful noise. He learned the secret breath techniques of bel canto, and how to project the voice. But eventually, he was repelled. Pavarotti was a glutton, and demanded whole ducks, dripping in fat, and bottles of fine wine, one after another, as he bawled corrections on the young man's legato passages. Finally the young man struck out on his own.
ROTFL! What a grand ole Opry we have.
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:03 PM   #248
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Hello Ellis,

What about Massimo's pupils, especially his son?

Best,

PAG

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Old 02-12-2008, 07:26 PM   #249
DH
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Ellis,

What about Massimo's pupils, especially his son?

Best,

PAG
I've heard it said, that the word on the street has it, that he and Pavarotti's son both wound up starting the Juilliard and Berkeley schools of music, in an attempt to discover the "essence of true opera for themselves! " In the end neither were known for producing unique virtuosity, but rather solid, work-a-day musicians.

Ellis...as always

I think I hear something in the distance something out of the ether...virtuosity reduced to four chord progressions. It's very catchy though...wha..what...

"They caught the last train for the coast. The day, the music died.
They were singing...Bye- bye...

Last edited by DH : 02-12-2008 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:48 AM   #250
dbotari
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Re: It's the same old song, but with a different beat since you been gone

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Once upon a time ...
Amdur Sensei,

Its little gems like this that make wading through the mass of traffic (and often drivel) on this site worthwhile. I thank you for bringing a smile to my face and lightness to my heart.

Sincerely,

Dan
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