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Old 12-24-2008, 01:16 PM   #601
C. David Henderson
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Gene,

I'm sure you could, but that wasn't my point and it wasn't addressed to you. Peace to you and all your relations.
 
Old 12-24-2008, 01:16 PM   #602
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Hi folks,

Can we please steer the discussion to be more explicitly pertinent to the original topic of whether the teaching and practice methodologies within aikido need to "evolve" or not?

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 12-24-2008, 01:17 PM   #603
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Yes, and, historically, an egg hatched into whatever organism we want to call the first chicken. That egg was laid by a proto-chicken. Ergo, the egg came first. he problem with the old saying is it mixes categories -- the general and the specific -- to create the apparent paradox.And, the truth likely is if we saw the first chicken, we wouldn't recognize it as a different species, for reasons already stated by, I believe, Erick.RegardsDavid
The egg had to come from a chicken, which couldn't possibly be any other animal. The rest is yet to be proven.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 01:18 PM   #604
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Hi folks,

Can we please steer the discussion to be more explicitly pertinent to the original topic of whether the teaching and practice methodologies within aikido need to "evolve" or not?

Thank you,

-- Jun
Yes, yes, PLEASE.....Jun, maybe you could "nudge" it in the right direction. I'm trying to show that most folks' minds are closd to this whole concept.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-24-2008 at 01:21 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 01:23 PM   #605
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

My position has been the same and very simple: If it has room for improvement, it has room to evolve.

Noone has satisfactorily proven to me that Aikido does NOT have room to improve, in some way.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-24-2008 at 01:27 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 01:47 PM   #606
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Hi folks,

Can we please steer the discussion to be more explicitly pertinent to the original topic of whether the teaching and practice methodologies within aikido need to "evolve" or not?

Thank you,

-- Jun
The key phrase here is "need to evolve" (as in begin to evolve). The phrase implies that Aikido teaching and practice methodologies are static and do not change. Anyone who has been around Aikido for any length of time can see that this is patently incorrect. I would sitpulate that Aikido practice and teaching methodologies are in a state of continuous evolution and therefore is the question as to whether they need to evolve is meaningless.

This says nothing about whether the various offshoots from the main line work for the betterment of Aikido, its detriment or have no effect at all.

Ron
 
Old 12-24-2008, 02:21 PM   #607
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Hi Ron,

Good point. To me, a equally key phrase in Jun's post, is "or not."

Best Wishes,

DH
 
Old 12-24-2008, 02:24 PM   #608
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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In this thread, the ostrich, the platypus, and the snake showed up to discuss the evolution of the chicken---specifically, how the chicken might be made better. This was not a problem until each one revealed his own thoughts that he was himself a chicken and that at least one of the others was not. The revelations occurred when the snake said that the chicken's scales might be modified, when the platypus said the chicken's milk could be fortified, when the ostrich said the chicken's legs should be at least this long, ... There may have been a pheasant who said that the chicken was perfect as it is, but I suspect he thought he was a chicken, too.

So much for the Art of Peace

So, I don't believe I'm oblivious to your argument---I may be very much in agreement. For what it's worth, I also don't believe earlier disagreements nullified your model; I only state that it would not have resolved the misunderstandings. I'm asking you to drive it home. You've defined "evolution" and "development" for us (to help us distinguish what is and what is not "evolution" as per the thread's topic); we just need the definition of "aikido" now---so people will know what is and what is not aikido.

My own belief, restated---and also for what it's worth---is that it is an error in aikido to strive to define aikido---except perhaps as an exercise to bring you to this conclusion. But, as usual, I may be wrong.
Joe,

Nice parable. Can I be the platypus?
 
Old 12-24-2008, 04:20 PM   #609
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Here is my attempt to state what I believe the parameters of a reasonable discussion of this topic need to take into account. Warning, it will take a few paragraphs to set this out, so if that's not to your taste as a reader, I understand.

I for one do not believe it remains to be proven that, e.g., the chicken, as a biological species, evolved from a species that was not, at a genetic level, a chicken. At some point, "chickens" could no longer interbreed with "proto-chicken." That is when we could talk sensibly about chickens as a separate species.

I also think human beings evolved from early, now extinct hominids. Like other social mammals, including canines, felines, and primates, it is likely these antecedents to our DNA learned both predation and intra-specific aggression skills through play behavior with con-specific members of their social group. Like other mammals, it is likely they had hard-wired into them inhibitions against killing a member of their own species.

Nonetheless, as with Chimpanzees, it is likely an ethologist would, if she were able to study early hominid behavior as extensively as Jane Goodall has studied the Chimp, also would have observed, e.g., abberations such as cannibalism, and organized raids on rival factions of hominid that looked and acted like hunting parties.

At some point in human evolution, our ability to communicate through symbolic means changed everything. Everything included the way early humans fought, and the way they learned to fight.

Rather than simply play behavior fine tuning ingrained biological responses, those responses were subject to elaboration and modification through reflection and communication.

The evolutionary change that created culture also gave rise to cultural traditions of warfare that included, not only learned ways of using one's body but also cultural implements -- weapons.

Somewhere in the history of these many cultural traditions, certain breakthroughs may have occurred -- e.g., improved ways of training and entraining martially efficient movement; skill sets for striking and grappling; etc. (Please expand if you wish.)

And because real warfare seems like an endeavor to which the "evolution" model sensibly may be applied, over the course of human history, the role of war, and the lethal effectiveness of war have changed to the point where a push of a button can kill far more people than the most skilled unarmed warrior.

Also in this history, martial pursuits became pursuits for ends other than simply martial effectiveness. (Beware, even here, that in certain cultural traditions, including the Plains Indians, the point of battle was not always to kill, but to win prestige, e.g., by counting coup.)

I think Buck made a good point when he talked about budo as developing from bujustu as other technologies came to dominate the battlefield.

Maybe that's a distinct "evolutionary step" in itself.

What comes next I don't know.

DH
 
Old 12-24-2008, 04:45 PM   #610
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Imo, part of the problem is the tendencey to mold concepts to fit certain psyche.

From Wikipedia:

"Budv is a compound of the root bu (:), meaning war or martial; and dv (ƻ:ɤ), meaning path or way. Specifically, dv is derived from the Buddhist Sanskrit mFrga (meaning the 'path' to enlightenment).[1] The term refers to the idea of formulating propositions, subjecting them to philosophical critique and then following a 'path' to realize them.[2] Dv signifies a 'way of life'. Dv in the Japanese context, is an experiential term, experiential in the sense that practice (the way of life) is the norm to verify the validity of the discipline cultivated through a given art form. The modern budv has no external enemy, only the internal enemy, one's ego that must be fought[3] (state of Muga-mushin). Similarly to budv, bujutsu is a compound of the roots bu (), and jutsu (:), meaning science, craft, or art. Thus, budv is most often translated as "the way of war", or "martial way", while bujutsu is translated as "science of war" or "martial craft." "

I will admit I prefer Aikido to be Aikijutsu, as that'd more closely describe my perception of Aikido evolved.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-24-2008 at 04:48 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 05:08 PM   #611
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Sure, Martial = war or fighting , but what about "art"? Is MA (Aikido) an art or a science?
It is Budo.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 12-24-2008, 06:06 PM   #612
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I think that aikido is not an organic thing, hence it does not "evolve," in the sense that many posts state. However, I believe aikido is learning experience and like most learning experiences, there is a natural selection that places those who learn faster at an advantage. To that extent, I believe there should ALWAYS be pressure to find a better way to learn aikido and to teach aikido. I see people like George Ledyard sensei who strive to create a better teaching methodology and I argue that aikido is becoming an easier art to learn through instructors who are spending time breaking down the techniques and principles to a level that is easier for students to consume.

Second, I think that comparing aikido to other martial arts is something like comparing apples to oranges and probably not worthwhile discussion. However, a valid point to raise is why aikido does not attract the same students as MMA or other "popular" arts. I think we answer that question ourselves when in one breath we ask, "why doesn't aikido attract 18-25 yo athletes that want to fight?" and in the next breath say, "aikido should evolve to no fighting at all."

Aikido is a great martial art. If we have trouble marketing it to those who would embrace it, then change marketing techniques not the art itself.
 
Old 12-24-2008, 06:44 PM   #613
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
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Right , we can't use a biological tenplate because this is not a biological issue, it's simply a manmade art based on Natural science. Btw, the only porblem with the chicken or the egg is which came first.
Are men not biological? Do we not make according to our kind and according to our understanding as the ants do, as the termites or bees? we have more subtlety and power ( and a knowledge of things beyond the material), but, as animals we are animals according to our kind. Arts in the Greek sense of techne did not have the division you imply. You create that division for a purpose -- and whenever a division is created, one must ask the purpose of dividing it in the first place, and secondarily, of dividing it quite THAT way rather than some other way.

Aikido is natural Way of conflict -- not the only such Way, by any means -- but as natural a Way to mankind according to a consistent principle of action as any of the various Ways of growing food or of building shelter, or of mastering fire or chemistry, or any of the other necessities of maintaining existence.

@ David -- There was no "first" chicken. There is a continuum of being, and we cannot define any single point where, precisely, the branch and trunk divide; even though at some scale we can distinguish them, we cannot make them less than unified, either. I really do commend studying Baien and understanding this aspect of the jouri principle of the development of Ki. Many and Other are fundamentally one -- in a physical sense.

On Jun's caution, this is truly a deep part of the underlying principles of of Aikido -- Aikido is a method to realize or reconnect to that continuum of being between oneself and the opponent -- in a physical, tangible sense, not merely a spiritual or metaphorical sense, sharing the same sensations and motivating mechanisms as the opponent and using them within his body as you use the same mechanisms and sensations within your own.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-24-2008 at 06:48 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-24-2008, 07:27 PM   #614
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
It is Budo.
It's heart is Japanes tradition and soul is Budo, but it's brain and backbone is science.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 08:30 PM   #615
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I think that aikido is not an organic thing, hence it does not "evolve," .
Did not the automoble evolve? The telegraph? The telephone? The horseless buggy? The Abacus? Everything in the world? That was my point about 8+ pages ago- that there's different kinds of evolution- everything is in a constant state of change, including Aikido.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 08:59 PM   #616
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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On Jun's caution, this is truly a deep part of the underlying principles of of Aikido -- Aikido is a method to realize or reconnect to that continuum of being between oneself and the opponent -- in a physical, tangible sense, not merely a spiritual or metaphorical sense, sharing the same sensations and motivating mechanisms as the opponent and using them within his body as you use the same mechanisms and sensations within your own.
Well, that just about covers the spiritual side, but my position is all that goes out the window ( or hopefully not) at that moment of reckoning when confronted by our worst nightmare. best you can hope for then is all that training/practice was martially effective(in other words, your brand of Aikido has evolved). You could be in total "Zen Zone" ,but if your technique opens you to attack, that BG's gonna destroy a piece of your body (and possibly take your life). Also, evolving means teaching your new students what you're saying quicker/ more effectively.

Last edited by GeneC : 12-24-2008 at 09:09 PM.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-24-2008, 10:10 PM   #617
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Nice parable. Can I be the platypus?
Since I'd only gone so far as to cast myself as a deluded pheasant, sure! Why not?

 
Old 12-24-2008, 11:02 PM   #618
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Well, that just about covers the spiritual side, but my position is all that goes out the window ( or hopefully not) at that moment of reckoning when confronted by our worst nightmare. best you can hope for then is all that training/practice was martially effective(in other words, your brand of Aikido has evolved). You could be in total "Zen Zone" ,but if your technique opens you to attack, that BG's gonna destroy a piece of your body (and possibly take your life). Also, evolving means teaching your new students what you're saying quicker/ more effectively.
Teaching new students quicker, more effective...

I would not waste my time with aikido or even be concerned with evolving aikido.

Aikido is like grad school of a specialized practice.

Long story (which I know you don't like), but Modern Army Combatives has a pretty good program for teaching skills along the criteria that you are talking about here.

IMO, a completely different focus than Aikido is even concerned with.

I spend about 5 days a week involved in teaching/training in MAC and it is a good program.

 
Old 12-25-2008, 12:08 AM   #619
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Yes, I wondered why you didn't say anything when I was talking about knife fights several pages back, afa how Aikido has one grabbing at the knife. Do you think that's a good idea?

Btw, Merry Christmas(time to join my other family and sing carols and open presents) to all and to all a good night.

Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
 
Old 12-25-2008, 02:00 AM   #620
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
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Well, that just about covers the spiritual side,
I was speaking entirely physically. What one does with it spiritually is another thing entirely. They are definitely related but not irrevocably tied.

Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote: View Post
but my position is all that goes out the window ( or hopefully not) at that moment of reckoning when confronted by our worst nightmare. best you can hope for then is all that training/practice was martially effective(in other words, your brand of Aikido has evolved).
You are entitled to your position, but it is not consistent with my experience. Aikido is specifically intended to find the place of awareness where that window can remain firmly shut. People have varying degrees of success in finding that place. Aikido is a physical method of seeking means to arrive at that sensibility, but it is not the only one: "Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you." I find that sensibility to be more martially effective than the opposite. Oxytocin is a more robust, longer lasting, more broadly effective and less damaging stress hormone than adrenaline and norepinephrine. But there is no faking it; the body won't be fooled. Aikido really is about learning that, and it is not a "quick" endeavor, by any method, and as many people will tell you -- in and out of Aikido.

Quote:
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You could be in total "Zen Zone" ,but if your technique opens you to attack, that BG's gonna destroy a piece of your body (and possibly take your life). Also, evolving means teaching your new students what you're saying quicker/ more effectively.
As to the first point, so...? No one said anything makes one invincible. Something will kill us all, eventually ... So quit worrying about it -- as such -- and just train so that you don' t have to worry about it at the point of concern. If you worry about dying too much, you end up sooner dead.

Who said faster is better? Better is better, and fast or slow is not relevant except to the capacity of the student. Thorough is generally slower, all things begin equal. If you want quick -- get a gun and stay up nights planning all your siege and field response scenarios (not that there's anything wrong with that) -- otherwise ...

Presents all wrapped now, so Merry Christmas ! ... and off to bed ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 12-25-2008, 08:31 AM   #621
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Since I'd only gone so far as to cast myself as a deluded pheasant, sure! Why not?
OK, but you do get first call.

DH
 
Old 12-25-2008, 09:38 AM   #622
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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@ David -- There was no "first" chicken. There is a continuum of being, and we cannot define any single point where, precisely, the branch and trunk divide; even though at some scale we can distinguish them, we cannot make them less than unified, either. I really do commend studying Baien and understanding this aspect of the jouri principle of the development of Ki. Many and Other are fundamentally one -- in a physical sense.

On Jun's caution, this is truly a deep part of the underlying principles of of Aikido -- Aikido is a method to realize or reconnect to that continuum of being between oneself and the opponent -- in a physical, tangible sense, not merely a spiritual or metaphorical sense, sharing the same sensations and motivating mechanisms as the opponent and using them within his body as you use the same mechanisms and sensations within your own.
Merry Christmas, Erick.

What about this book -- run across it? It looks interesting.

Deep Words: Miura Baien's System of Natural Philosophy (Philosophy of History and Culture) (Philosophy of History and Culture)

I don't know if you thought I believed there actually was a "first chicken," as opposed to saying the chicken and egg paradox comes from a confusion of logically distinct categories -- the development of a single organism and the development of a species. The idea that the "egg came first" was just playing.

I quoted your last paragraph because I really like it, and would hold to a similar view (particularly now that you have rung the bell, so to speak).

Regards, as always.

DH
 
Old 12-25-2008, 10:49 AM   #623
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Merry Christmas, Erick.

I don't know if you thought I believed there actually was a "first chicken," as opposed to saying the chicken and egg paradox comes from a confusion of logically distinct categories -- the development of a single organism and the development of a species. The idea that the "egg came first" was just playing.

I quoted your last paragraph because I really like it, and would hold to a similar view (particularly now that you have rung the bell, so to speak).

Regards, as always.
I really hate to throw the chicken under the bus on this debate concerning evolution, but it does beg the question..."Why did the chicken cross the road?"
 
Old 12-25-2008, 10:54 AM   #624
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Aikidio is Aikido and it will continue to be Aikido.... we will grow with it....but will you ever understand it? ...let us see....

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
 
Old 12-25-2008, 11:17 AM   #625
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

everyone wants to defend Aikido....but Aikido IS...let it it be

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
 

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