Martial Arts (Including Aikido) as sports.

In an interview with Chiba
"
May I ask a little about Aikido history: O-Sensei was once invited to teach at the Kodokan by the founder of Judo, Dr. Jigoro Kano: did he accept?

At the time Kano Sensei was trying to consolidate the traditional martial arts of Japan, to help preserve them. That is why he asked O-Sensei to come to the Kodokan to teach. But O-Sensei refused: he felt that Aikido and Judo were so different that they should not be classed together. So instead Dr. Kano sent three of his senior students to study under O-Sensei
- Master Mochizuki and Master Murashige, and one other I can't recall his name. They studied with O-Sensei but returned every so often to the Kodokan to meet with Dr. Kano.

Was Tomiki Sensei the other master?

No Tomiki Sensei came later. He combined Aikido and Judo: he would use Aikido for open distance in combat, and judo for a closer Maai (critical distance), I don't altogether agree with this idea, but Tomiki Sensei was a very good martial artist…and a real gentleman.
"

...presumbly Sugino was the third. Tomiki came later, but not clear if he was actually sent.
Other sources mention that Kano strongly asked Tomiki to keep with Aikido allthough he had found it hard. No further references on that. Did Tomiki initially not understand Aikido? Found Ueshiba 'hard' as teacher? do not know.... Some references state that Ueshiba kept Tomiki from training with others to prevent him "picking up bad habits". Quote from Tomikiryu article (Black belts books).
-----

Tomiki at first was to incorporate Aikido principles in his Judo technique. I guess somewhere along the way his interest had shifted to Aikido.

Thanks Eddy - and again congrats on the Swiss event.

The dates and means of Tomiki joining Ueshiba are not covered in the interviews that Pranin did although they do cover other interesting stuff. I can not find the Biography Pranin did - perhaps it was there.

Tim Ruijs wrote: I am not sure I agree completely. When participating with a sincere heart one can humbly check his ability in competition. However, with different heart it can be seen as means to display ego....

Only if you win.

As a non-participating spectator, and particularly if you watch on television or youtube, most of what you see are the winners. The winners and their celebrations are what gets the airtime. A television-watching non-participant sees the glory moments, and naturally thinks that this is what sport is, when in fact that's the shiny tip of the iceberg. If you're losing, or let's be honest, if you're anything other than the celebrated "best", you're going to have a hard time developing an overblown ego no matter how "different" your heart is.

Tim Ruijs wrote: In an interview with Chiba " ...presumbly Sugino was the third. Tomiki came later, but not clear if he was actually sent. Other sources mention that Kano strongly asked Tomiki to keep with Aikido allthough he had found it hard. No further references on that. Did Tomiki initially not understand Aikido? Found Ueshiba 'hard' as teacher? do not know.... Some references state that Ueshiba kept Tomiki from training with others to prevent him "picking up bad habits". Quote from Tomikiryu article (Black belts books). ----- Tomiki at first was to incorporate Aikido principles in his Judo technique. I guess somewhere along the way his interest had shifted to Aikido.

Well I guess Chiba got it wrong too - entirely possible since he was 4th generation student starting in 1958. Tomiki definitly started training around 4 years before Mochizuki (even according to Mochizuki). Far enough removed for things to get a little hazy. These two were the only ones to receive Menkyo from Ueshiba and of course when Ueshiba switched to the Dan system Tomiki was the first 8th dan awarded. The Tomikiryu article suffers from the same problem, both authors had limited contact with Tomiki - it is really hard to know exactly how they got their information.

Mary Malmros wrote: Only if you win. As a non-participating spectator, and particularly if you watch on television or youtube, most of what you see are the winners. The winners and their celebrations are what gets the airtime. A television-watching non-participant sees the glory moments, and naturally thinks that this is what sport is, when in fact that's the shiny tip of the iceberg. If you're losing, or let's be honest, if you're anything other than the celebrated "best", you're going to have a hard time developing an overblown ego no matter how "different" your heart is.

And this is the truth of the matter. Even the winners have had their fair share of losses on the way and are well aware how fleeting their time is. Some of the kindest people I've met have spent time at the top of their field and conversely some of the most overblown egos I've encountered have not been tempered in that way. Of course we can find opposing examples - but its not because of competition.

First off, congratulations to Mr Wolput, and thank you for your videos on YouTube.

A little off the topic, but Morihei Ueshiba was a student of Takeda and handing out certificates in Daito Ryu until 1937. The "true Budo" comment - Ueshiba had not gone out on his own and the word Aikido was not even coined until 1942. I wonder if the true Budo comment was aimed at Daito Ryu and Takeda's top student. Possibly Tomiki helped arrange that Kano saw a demo by Ueshiba?

The balance between shiai competition and formal training has been a tricky balance for other martial arts as it changes the training method the more popular the competitions get. BJJ definitely benefited from UFC initially, then when the crowds found two sweaty guys laying on top of each other boring, time limits for grappling were introduced. The importance of Judo competition in the olympics - I think the general public would be surprised by the kata tradition.

Kata competition leads to standardization of forms, which restricts the training method and grades the forms on non-combat oriented criteria.

I believe introducing competition was also done to increase the public profile and to increase interest in the arts. While arts like sumo, wrestling and boxing have survived because of competition in large part, Koryu are largely slowly dying. Competition does make training more fun, and helps the survival of the art. It just does not ensure the survival of the art unchanged as competition becomes more important.

This thread is becoming a great commentary on the murkiness of our shared history.

John Hillson wrote: This thread is becoming a great commentary on the murkiness of our shared history.

When politics go in the way, history suffers.

And in Tomiki's case we have not only to deal with Aikikai approach to history but with Kodokan's too.

John Hillson wrote: First off, congratulations to Mr Wolput, and thank you for your videos on YouTube. A little off the topic, but Morihei Ueshiba was a student of Takeda and handing out certificates in Daito Ryu until 1937. The "true Budo" comment - Ueshiba had not gone out on his own and the word Aikido was not even coined until 1942. I wonder if the true Budo comment was aimed at Daito Ryu and Takeda's top student. Possibly Tomiki helped arrange that Kano saw a demo by Ueshiba? The balance between shiai competition and formal training has been a tricky balance for other martial arts as it changes the training method the more popular the competitions get. BJJ definitely benefited from UFC initially, then when the crowds found two sweaty guys laying on top of each other boring, time limits for grappling were introduced. The importance of Judo competition in the olympics - I think the general public would be surprised by the kata tradition. Kata competition leads to standardization of forms, which restricts the training method and grades the forms on non-combat oriented criteria. I believe introducing competition was also done to increase the public profile and to increase interest in the arts. While arts like sumo, wrestling and boxing have survived because of competition in large part, Koryu are largely slowly dying. Competition does make training more fun, and helps the survival of the art. It just does not ensure the survival of the art unchanged as competition becomes more important.

John - I have no idea what influence Tomiki had with the first visit but you do bring about an interesting point. Kano was a collector as much as an innovator and went out of his way to bring different traditions into the Kodokan with Ueshiba's art being one fish in the sea. In point of fact he considered all of them judo (read budo) so really you have to look at the the true budo statement in that context - it really means that this is definitely one fish I want to obtain. His goal was to preserve dying traditions and also interestingly the koryu that do remain alive have old judo guys as their members.

From his writings Tomiki shared this holistic view although as I understand it he trained them separately. This is something I understand fairly well - the pitfalls of toshu randori for those in the know and the ease of slipping into judo technique.

Kata competition can lead to standardization but the whole point of kata is that they should contain defined principles that can be demonstrated through correct performance. If they are to show martial principles (and I think they do) than that is what is judged. You also have free waza competitions where you can (and they do) perform what you like.