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Old 07-12-2001, 12:01 PM   #26
TAC One
Dojo: Aikikai Valsugana
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Re: Re: Jun

Quote:
Originally posted by akiy

Nah -- I think it's a good question in and of itself. It's certainly brought up some healthy discussions. I know that some very experienced people have spent some time thinking about this issue and it's been on my mind for a while. Might as well bring it up and see what others think, huh?
-- Jun
So, what's your current opinion?

Tac

TAC One


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Old 07-12-2001, 11:19 PM   #27
akiy
 
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Re: Re: Re: Jun

Quote:
Originally posted by TAC One
So, what's your current opinion?
Me? As of tonight, I'd put aikido into the "pushing" category. My overly simplified view (since I really can't think too complexifiedly) is that pulling offers people a chance for disconnection and an opening.

And on to some random thoughts on the subject here.

The old judo saying goes, "When pulled, push; when pushed, pull." I believe it was judo's own Mifune sensei who changed the last "pull" to "turn"...

And pushing doesn't necessarily have to happen in a straight line, of course.

Katatedori tenkan (aka tai no henko), for me, is a push -- even (especially?) while turning. The turning part of iriminage ura is, for me, also a push.

And, lastly, I think it may be possible to "push" someone from behind, even if you're in front of them.

How's that for my current opinion?

-- Jun

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Old 07-13-2001, 11:05 AM   #28
Fausto
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Re: Pushme/Pullyu

From what i understand when you go irimi you kind of push uke and when you go tenkan you kind of pull uke.

Irimi: You push yourself into uke's sphere.
Tenkan: You pull uke into your sphere.

Arrivederci
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Old 07-14-2001, 04:01 AM   #29
AikidoSteve
Dojo: Foothills Aikido, Evergreen, Colorado
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I did not answer the questionif aikido is push or pull, because I try not to think in terns of push or pull. Push and pull are good general terms for the lay person, and when trying to explain certain beginning concepts. But on a higher level, it seems to me that it's not so much a "push" as it is an "extension" from your center, using your ki. Further, I don't think one pulls. If so where does one pull, to their center, and then what? If it's not to ones center then it must be in another direction. So, therefore pulling is also "extending ki" or from another viewpoint it could be "catching" the energy and extending it in another direction. When one is "caught" it almost feels like a pull for a moment, but I would argue it's still an extension.

Yours in Aikihood

Steve Nelson
Confront the enemy with the point of your sword against his face.
-Miyamoto Musashi, "A Book of Five Rings"
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Old 07-19-2001, 01:27 AM   #30
davoravo
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Dr Dolittle and the Pushme-Pullyou

Do the people who like pulling fall into the "collapsing" as opposed to extending group?
I personally find pulling movements (toward my centre) do not work well although there are some movements that feel like pulling but are connected to or away from my centre so I am going to define those as pushing just to be cantankerous (eg movement from a Ura grip attack where one hand "pulls" but I always try not to be yanking toward my centre).

I push in irimi and in tenkan I push in a circle around my centre or blend and turn and let uke keep pushing.

David McNamara
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Old 07-25-2001, 03:06 PM   #31
George S. Ledyard
 
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Misnomer

Quote:
Originally posted by ronin_10562
I couldn't pick either one. Add sinking and I'll choose it. As for pulling or pushing it depends on where and what technique you may be doing.

Walt
I would say that there is no pushing or pulling in Aikido. Everything that I formerly thought involved pulling turned out to involve changes in the level and angle of ones extension and had no contraction at all (hence was not pulling).

When we are operating in three dimensions spacially, each dimension is controlled by a specific part or parts of the body.

Movement in the vertical plane is controlled by the legs by bending the knees and by the arms by changing the angle of extension (up, outwards, or down).

Movement in the horizontal plane is controlled by the hips and relative movement of the feet.

The biggest mistake that people make in their technique is to try to use the wrong parts of the body to produce movement in the wrong plane. Pushing and pulling are essentially movements in the horizontal plane therefore they don't work. You might point out that it is possible to push down to throw. I would counter that in order for you to truely "push" downwards you need to tilt your body forward. This breaks your aligment and presents serious openings for kaeshiwaza as well as moving your face forwad into range for the partner to strike.

Yamaguchi Sensei said that technique should involve no more effort than simply resting the weight of your arms on your partner. Notice, nothing here about "pushing" or "pulling". So the arms are all about extension.

What appears to be pulling is actually a change in the angle of extension. If you grab my arm when it is extended and then i change the angle of extension downwards between my feet, you will be drawn forward. It may feel like a pull but it is not. You can verify this by trying to pull the partner. If he is grounded pulling simply doesn't work.

Another way to draw the partner forwrd is to rotate the hips. With constant extension of the arms, hip rotation creates a yin energy into which the partner is drawn.

The principle to remember is that of a sphere rotating. At any instant in time, half of that sphere is yin and half is yang. Technique is created by placing that partner on the proper part of the rotation at the proper time. This concept is part of what is meant by kokyu or kokyu power.

All Aikido technique can be looked at in this manner. If you work at making the right parts of your body only work the correct dimensions your technque can begin to be very relaxed yet still be powerful.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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Old 07-25-2001, 03:22 PM   #32
mj
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Thanks
That's getting printed!

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Old 07-25-2001, 07:38 PM   #33
Chuck Clark
 
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Hi George,

Good stuff. I have always thought that "extension" and "pushing" are the same thing. Six of one and half a dozen of the other, I suspect.

I do think that there is absolutely no pulling.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 07-25-2001, 11:58 PM   #34
George S. Ledyard
 
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Distinction

Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
Hi George,

Good stuff. I have always thought that "extension" and "pushing" are the same thing. Six of one and half a dozen of the other, I suspect.

I do think that there is absolutely no pulling.

Regards,
It is a slight distinction. Originally I became fairly sure that there was no pulling in Aikido. But then it occurred to me that I should look at its opposite which is pushing.
At a certain point I began to believe that there is a difference between "extension" and "pushing".

For me extension is always an inherently balanced energy. There may be expansive energy but the expansion is always in balance with its opposite (centrifigal and centripedal) making the state nuetral at any point in time. Pushing on the other hand is outward extension that is not in balance with its opposite.

As a practical example I would say that if my partner were to stand in from of me and "extend" into me and I were to jump away they wouldn't fall forward but if they "pushed" and I jumped away suddenly they would fall forward.

Anyway, the concept has been useful for me. It's the kind of thing I feel rather than something that is visibly obvious.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 07-26-2001, 09:10 AM   #35
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Distinction

Quote:
Originally posted by George S. Ledyard

As a practical example I would say that if my partner were to stand in from of me and "extend" into me and I were to jump away they wouldn't fall forward but if they "pushed" and I jumped away suddenly they would fall forward.
George,

I agree with the example, however, I call that having good, centered posture. However we visualize and articulate what's happening, I suspect we're doing pretty much the same thing.

I do think it's important to have whatever explanation we use be very close to what's happening. There are way too many people who do one thing and then describe it using what I call the "Wiley Coyote School of Physics." It causes lots of misunderstanding.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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