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Old 07-24-2001, 03:52 PM   #26
Matt Banks
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profile

are there any other Matt's on this forum who can own up to having the profile attached to my name?


Matt Banks

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Old 07-24-2001, 04:17 PM   #27
guest1234
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I'm sorry, I thought you were joking, since it wouldn't matter if you did Tai Chi or not. I like jokes, and it's about time people laughed around here. Good luck, Jun should be able to tell who tampered with your profile.
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Old 07-24-2001, 04:21 PM   #28
[Censored]
 
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Re: profile

Your profile is quite impressive, I'll be happy to trade with you. I've barely used mine at all, it's just like new!
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Old 07-24-2001, 04:25 PM   #29
guest1234
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and by the way, if you want privacy to discuss this with Jun, you can send him a private email. One reason I decided you were joking was the fact that you were doing this in the middle of this thread rather than privately. Just a suggestion.
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Old 07-24-2001, 05:27 PM   #30
mj
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
I'm sorry, I thought you were joking, since it wouldn't matter if you did Tai Chi or not. I like jokes, and it's about time people laughed around here. Good luck, Jun should be able to tell who tampered with your profile.
Wow ca... a short answer!

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Old 07-24-2001, 05:50 PM   #31
Nick
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humor? on this forum? surely you jest!

Matt, it's not too big of a deal... just email Jun and it will get sorted out... if you should decide to not post here anymore, best of luck wherever you land... try E-budo, perhaps?

Nick
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Old 07-24-2001, 06:02 PM   #32
akiy
 
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Re: RE: Jun's "Ki" phrases

Quote:
Originally posted by Ted Mangi
A note from an English teacher's perspective RE: Jun's "Ki" phrases:

The phrases seem to be the equivilent of an English "Idiom". A grammarian would label the Ki phrases "idiomatic expressions." Examples in English:
-big- headed (self-important)
-knock out (render unconscious)
-get pissed (either angry or drunk, depending on your nationality)
Perhaps they may be idiomatic expressions, but the fact still exists that this ambiguous notion of "ki" is pretty much still retains, basically, the same meaning throughout whereas the examples you use ("headed," "knock," and "pissed") all seem to morph the meaning of the word into something that, for example, a foreigner wouldn't understand unless it were explained to them. At least to me, "the ki of the heavens" translates more easily to "the weather" than do the examples you chose.

I don't think they're quite as metaphorical as the examples you chose, but that just may be due to the fact that the Japanese language is a "part" of me...

-- Jun

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Old 07-24-2001, 06:05 PM   #33
akiy
 
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Re: ahhh

Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Banks
Jun help i just looked at my profile,

and it says under interests tai chi ,bhanu vuu and stuff.

I never wrote this stuff, ever??..?????

I talked about poetry and stuff in my profile, how has this mix up happened.

The database might have gotten mixed up in the past. Best people check their profiles to make sure it looks OK.
Quote:
Can it be fixed
Of course. Just go to your Edit Profile option under the "User Control Panel" at the top to edit your profile.

-- Jun

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Old 07-24-2001, 06:51 PM   #34
Jim23
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Re: im very serious

Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Banks

I couldnt even spell half the things written on there. Why would I care if someone thought I did Tai chi.
I agree him ... Matt can't spell. Unless he was filled with Ki.

Maybe it was sake?

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 07-24-2001, 07:16 PM   #35
mj
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Jim, calm down on the man, you're developing a problem. Smiley complex, I think it's called.

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Old 07-24-2001, 07:56 PM   #36
Jim23
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I meant: I agree with him.

I agree mj (about the smiley faces)! But they seemed so appropriate in that case and I was just matching Matt's high level of emotion. I can't help myself! Anyway, those Yoshinkan guys can take it.

Jim23

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Old 07-25-2001, 04:24 PM   #37
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Do You Believe In Ki?

Quote:
Originally posted by Vera Cordwood
DO YOU BELIEVE IN KI?

I am curious about Ki. I am a Christian and I am not sure I can rectify Ki with my beliefs. What do you think about Ki?
Talking about "Belief" in regards to Ki indicates a mistaken concept of what Ki is. Ki or Ch'i in Chinese is one of the Five Elements in the Chinese / Japanese explanation of how the universe is structured. The other elements are water, fire, earth, and metal. You don't believe or disbelieve in those.

There are all sorts of translations of Ch'i / Ki. One is "Life Force". This is essentially a religiously neutral term. What you do with the term can enter into the religious realm but the term itself is independent of any religious or spiritual meaning. It's more about explaining energy that isn't measured by mechanical devices.

That said, if you read the works of Teilhard de Chardin, the Jesuit palentologist and Christian philosopher, you can see an attempt to use the concept to reconcile Christian spirituality with modern Science. Not that he calls it Ch'i or Ki but he was part of the expedition that discovered Peking Man in China and had extensive exposure to the ideas of the east. He made Ki or Life Force into Consciousness and posited that it was that element of the Divine that ran through all Creation. Now when you do that with the concept it is definitely within the realm of the religious. But is it in conflict with Chrsitianity? He didn't think so.

George S. Ledyard
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Bellevue, WA
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Old 07-25-2001, 04:31 PM   #38
mj
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These are gems....
Keep going, please!

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Old 07-25-2001, 05:05 PM   #39
Jim23
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Mark, I hope you're sittimg in Seiza.

I agree with you. George (virtual sensei?), you should post more often.

Jim23

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Old 07-25-2001, 07:24 PM   #40
guest1234
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Yes!!!
(mj, please note brevity )
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Old 07-25-2001, 11:23 PM   #41
Peter Goldsbury
 
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Re: Do You Believe In Ki?

Quote:
Originally posted by George S. Ledyard


Talking about "Belief" in regards to Ki indicates a mistaken concept of what Ki is. Ki or Ch'i in Chinese is one of the Five Elements in the Chinese / Japanese explanation of how the universe is structured. The other elements are water, fire, earth, and metal. You don't believe or disbelieve in those.

There are all sorts of translations of Ch'i / Ki. One is "Life Force". This is essentially a religiously neutral term. What you do with the term can enter into the religious realm but the term itself is independent of any religious or spiritual meaning. It's more about explaining energy that isn't measured by mechanical devices.

That said, if you read the works of Teilhard de Chardin, the Jesuit palentologist and Christian philosopher, you can see an attempt to use the concept to reconcile Christian spirituality with modern Science. Not that he calls it Ch'i or Ki but he was part of the expedition that discovered Peking Man in China and had extensive exposure to the ideas of the east. He made Ki or Life Force into Consciousness and posited that it was that element of the Divine that ran through all Creation. Now when you do that with the concept it is definitely within the realm of the religious. But is it in conflict with Chrsitianity? He didn't think so.
A few supplementary notes on George Ledyard's post.

1. One of the best discussions of ki in relation to aikido can be found in "The Spirit of Aikido", by the late Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba. It seems clear to me that there is no connection whatever between ki, as explained by Doshu, and a religion like Christianity. It is a completely different thing, for example, from grace.

Part of the problem is that there is no easy English translation and so people have to look at 'ki' in metaphorical terms. In other words, English (certainly) and other languages (possibly) process highly abstract concepts in terms of much more concrete notions. Thus we talk of ideas as if they are semi-physical things moving through space. There is an underlying view of the body as a container or a machine and of knowledge as a kind of linear movement. This concept is not without controversy and is explored in detail by George Lakoff ("Metraphors We Live By"; "Women, Fire and Dangerous Things"; "Philosophy in the Flesh").

Finally, Teilhard de Chardin took many of his ideas from Henri Bergson, especially his book "Evolution Creatrice". Teilhard took Bergson's concept of evolution and applied it to consciousness. His concept of the Noosphere, the sphere surrounding the biosphere, was the arena where consciousness also evolved to something he called the Omega Point. At this point, Teihard's idea of evolving consciousness (Bergson's elan vital) in nature (and man) seemed very much like 'chi' or 'ki'.

Teilhard's ideas were extremely controversial and what upset his fellow Jesuits and churchmen was the underlying notion that consciousness is moving willy-nilly to the Omega Point (which = Christ) and that 'life-force', consciousness and grace were all different aspects of the same thing.

This was Teilhard's response to a current of opinion in catholic France after the war that Grace and Nature, the Spiritual and the Physical, had been excessively separated. A radical Jesuit, Henri de Lubac, argued to this effect in a book called "Surnaturel" in which he argued that God was in things in a much closer way.

De Lubac was banned from teaching theology for a while. He was a close friend of Teilhard, but thought that Teilhard's ideas were dangerously confused. Teilhar's main books, not often read nowadays, are "The Phenomenon of Man" and "Le Milieu Divin".

Having read both de Lubac and Teilhard, and also studying aikido, I can see how he might have made the mistake of thinking that something like 'ki' had to be essentially spiritual. But actually, not even O Sensei thought like this.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 07-25-2001 at 11:28 PM.

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Old 07-26-2001, 11:36 AM   #42
mj
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Lightbulb

So how did O-sensei think of Ki Peter?

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Old 07-27-2001, 06:51 PM   #43
Peter Goldsbury
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by mj
So how did O-sensei think of Ki Peter?
I think he took it for granted, like the air we breathe.

In his published writings O Sensei constantly refers to 'aiki', namely, harmonising one's ki with that of other beings. That is, it is the harmonising that is the issue, not the thing itself.

I think O Sensei's intellectual framework is that of a beliuever in kami and in the ways that kami affect the world. He believed in 'tsumi', the various ways in which the workings of the kami can become impure, the cure for which was aiki training, preceded by exercises like misogi, torifune and furitama.

I think that if you had said to O Sensei, "I do not believe in ki because I am a Christian, he would have wondered what planet you were on. It would be like saying "My religion prevents me from believing in oxygen".

The problem for us is that western thought does not really have a category for things which are both physical and spiritual, so we persist in putting ki into one or other of the latter categories.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 07-27-2001 at 06:55 PM.

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Old 07-27-2001, 07:21 PM   #44
mj
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury


I think he took it for granted, like the air we breathe.


The problem for us is that western thought does not really have a category for things which are both physical and spiritual, so we persist in putting ki into one or other of the latter categories.
Too true.
Food for thought.
Thanks very much.

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Old 07-27-2001, 10:00 PM   #45
Suru
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to Nick

Nick,

Please give credit to George Leonard Sensei's book "The Way of Aikido" if you used it in your first response. If you didn't, then, well, just a coincidence.

Drew
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Old 07-29-2001, 12:10 AM   #46
Steve Speicher
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Ki Symbol O Sensei on Ki

The following is taken from The Spirit of Aikido by the late Doshu, Kisshomaru Ueshiba.
---------------------------

In recent years interest in the ancient principle of ki has increased enormously, but most accounts neglect its philosophical roots. Briefly, the essence of ki is both personal and impersonal, concrete and universal; it is the basic, creative energy or force in life, transcending time and space.

Some of O Sensei's writings on ki, taken from the same book:
------------------------------------
Through budo I trained my body thoroughly and mastered its ultimate secrets, but I also realized an even greater truth. That is, when I grasped the real nature of the universe through budo, I saw clearly that human beings must unite mind and body and the ki that connects the two and then achieve harmony with the activity of all things in the universe.

By virtue of the subtle working of ki we harmonize mind and body and the relationship between the individual and the universe. When the subtle working of ki is unhealthy, the world falls into confusion and the universe into chaos. The harmonizeing of a united ki-mind-body with the activity of the universe is critical for order and peace in the world.

The subtle working of ki is the maternal source that affects delicate changes in breath. It is also the source of martial art as love. When one unifies mind and body by virtue of ki and manifests ai-ki (harmony of ki), delicate changes in breath-power occur spontaneously and waza (proper technique) flows freely.
The change in breath, connected with the ki of the universe, interacts and interpenetrates with all of life. At the same time the delicate breath-power enters into all corners of one's body. Entering deeply, it fills one with vitality, resulting naturally in variegated, dynamic, spontaneous movements. In this way the whole body, including the internal organs, becomes united in heat, light, and power. Having accomplished unification of mind and body and being in oneness with the universe, the body moves at will offering no resistance to one's intentions.

The delicate changes in breath cause subtle movements of ki in the void. Sometimes movements are fierce and potent, at other times slow and stolid. By such changes one can discern the degree of concentration or unification of mind and body. When concentration permeates mind and body, breath-power becomes one with the universe, gently and naturally expanding to the utter limit, but at the same time the person becomes increasingly self-contained and autonomous. In this way when breath works together with the universe, the unseen spiritual essence becomes a reality within oneself, enfolding and protecting and defending the self. This is an introduction to the profound essence of ai-ki.

Aiki is the power of harmony,
Of all beings, all things working together,
Relentlessly train yourself--
Followers of the Way.

-----------------------------
Steve Speicher
May I ask what is meant by the strong, moving power (hao jan chih chi)? "It
is difficult to describe," Mencius replied. -- Mencius IIA2

403-256 BCE
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Old 07-29-2001, 10:03 AM   #47
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Thought I'd pass this on - this link provides a brief talk on KI from the late Toyoda Sensei, pretty interesting:
http://www.aikidocentercharlotte.com...er/vol5-2.html
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Old 07-29-2001, 08:06 PM   #48
Nick
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Re: to Nick

Quote:
Originally posted by Suru
Nick,

Please give credit to George Leonard Sensei's book "The Way of Aikido" if you used it in your first response. If you didn't, then, well, just a coincidence.

Drew
I've read that in there, but I've also read lists very similar to that in many other books... though I did steal the part about "The Force" from him .

Sorry Leonard-sensei!

Nick
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Old 08-01-2001, 10:06 PM   #49
Richard Harnack
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Ki Symbol Re: Do You Believe In Ki?

Quote:
Originally posted by Vera Cordwood
DO YOU BELIEVE IN KI?

I am curious about Ki. I am a Christian and I am not sure I can rectify Ki with my beliefs. What do you think about Ki?
Vera-
Little did you know what you were starting.

"Ki" as an oriental concept goes back some. Several of the early chinese philosophers discussed it in brief early on. It was not until later that "chi" became a more complex idea. This is most likely due to the influence of Indian Buddhism. While "ki" is often translated as "life force" or some such variant, the early chinese philosophers actually distinguished different types of "ki", something which is sometimes forgotten.

Perhaps the closest concept from the same early era is the ancient hebrew ru'ach, or "breath". However, even the ancient hebrews distinguished between "breath" and "life force", they also alluded to "life" being in the blood.

As to whether or not you can or want to attempt to reconcile christianity with "ki" and other concepts in Aikido, is really determined by what you understand your faith demands of you.

Let me give you an example. On one occasion, our instructors class was going to fall on Easter Sunday. Kobayashi, Sensei was asked if class was going to be cancelled. He answered, "I am buddhist". He then indicated to one and all that he was devoted to his beliefs, but that did not mean others had to believe the same way. If Easter was a significant event for the student, then the it was the student's responsibility to be respectful of their beliefs.

As to whether "ki" exists or not, despite all of the research to prove or disprove, we just do not know. I generally tell my students that our body works with analogies very well. "Ki", as a fully developed oriental concept, and as it has been used in acupuncture, is a descriptive concept for relating and integrating different aspects of our being. In other words, "ki" is an understanding which allows the acupuncturist to help treat a client. In certain other martial arts and yogas, "ki" is a force to be activated or "balanced" through movement and meditation.

It is not a "Christian" concept, nor could it be. However, the idea it represents is very much in the Judaeo-Christian tradition, hence my reference to "ru'ach". Some I have taught find it easier to think of "divine ki" (cf Moriehi Ueshiba) as being the "Holy Spirit" and "common ki" as being the basic spark of life.

Others who find all of this "spiritual language" overly distasteful, I ask them to behave as if "ki" was real. They do not have to "feel" anything "mysterious", they simply have to allow their body to relax so that they can move through the technique.

To make up your own mind look up a book by Yuasa on Body, Mind & Ki. He gives information and hews fairly close to traditional understandings, while at the same time avoiding many of the pit-falls of those who overly mystify "ki".

PS: to those of you who have read Teilhard (all of his works, not just Phenomenon of Man and Divine Milieu) take a look at Hans Jonas' Phenomenon of Life as an "antidote".

Good luck Vera!

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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