Is Aikiweb still relevant?

Kristoffer - Here's one man's explanation. Dan used to refer to the book Anatomy Trains, but uses much simpler clearer explanations now. (IMO)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzX-PeU_MTo

Larry Feldman wrote: Ueshiba did a number of demonstrations that make no sense until you understand IP. There are some videos of him doing things that are hard to explain. An example would be him sitting in seiza and someone pushing on his forehead unable to push him over.

I understand.

How's it going? It is going, a continuous work in process. Now when we do techniques there will be places that it seems obvious to insert an IP movement to enhance the technique It is a very interesting deep dive into what really drives technique. After a long time in AIkido - it is interesting again. No longer just1,000 more reps trying to get some small return.

Exactly what I was asking. Are the enhancements actually beneficial considering the time that has to be put into them?

But the initial experience for me was just to develop IP, not to try to put it into technique. You have to have some level of proficiency to use it much. Eventually you start seeing where it fits. Certainly Dan has provided some explicit examples, but eventually you have to explore your own art. It is really fascinating.

How long did it take you to develop the IP?

How long to develop IP! It is a definite 'your milage may vary' answer.

The most encouraging thing that I got from Dan on this issue was that I did not have to get his ability, that if I could get 10% of what he has it would be useful, and enhance my art.

It does take a long time, you are changing your body. It is more an issue of daily practice to condition than any kind of just intensive workout with a 'breakthrough'.

I practiced for 3 years before Dan told me to start teaching, which I was reluctant to do, but listened to him. My students could feel the fdifference when I was 'on' vs. just doing normal physical technique. I threw them further, but it felt very different to them.

That said, as you start to practice your partner should be able to feel IP in your body right away. I did at Dan's seminar, my only exposure to IP. Part of the practice is partnered practice where it is very easy to feel the difference between force and doing I.P. But it takes time to develop it in your body enough that you can then insert into technique. it is a long term study. My students are doing it sooner than I did because I can show them where to use certain 'tactics'.

The people in history who developed this all had one valuable asset.....time. They were wealthy, or dirt poor - the monks. Both had the time to practice.

But on the other side it is what has made martial arts lessons. So far, worth the ride.

Damn autocorrect.....legends, not lessons.

Larry Feldman wrote: How long to develop IP! It is a definite 'your milage may vary' answer. The most encouraging thing that I got from Dan on this issue was that I did not have to get his ability, that if I could get 10% of what he has it would be useful, and enhance my art.

Interesting.

It does take a long time, you are changing your body. It is more an issue of daily practice to condition than any kind of just intensive workout with a 'breakthrough'. I practiced for 3 years before Dan told me to start teaching, which I was reluctant to do, but listened to him. My students could feel the fdifference when I was 'on' vs. just doing normal physical technique. I threw them further, but it felt very different to them.

Honestly that doesn't seem that long. From most of the posts I've read it seemed like it would take about 10 years or more to actually feel a difference in the way you are describing it. Did you practice intensely for several hours everyday or did you have a certain training program of how you did the exercises? Great job btw on achieving that level in such a short time.

That said, as you start to practice your partner should be able to feel IP in your body right away. I did at Dan's seminar, my only exposure to IP. Part of the practice is partnered practice where it is very easy to feel the difference between force and doing I.P. But it takes time to develop it in your body enough that you can then insert into technique. it is a long term study. My students are doing it sooner than I did because I can show them where to use certain 'tactics'.

Great for you and your students.

The people in history who developed this all had one valuable asset.....time. They were wealthy, or dirt poor - the monks. Both had the time to practice. But on the other side it is what has made martial arts lessons. So far, worth the ride.

Not having to worry about time and money, that would be nice.

Initially I was training alone, and didn't practice that much daily. More like minutes a day. I found that after 6-9 months I needed to go see Dan and hear the lesson again, which I tried to do. It is not the optimal way to learn this stuff.

After doing some daily practice for 10 seconds 10 times in a day I realized I wasn't making progree as quickly as I woul dlike, so I strated doing 20 seconds, then a minute - then 20 miinutes total.....progress improved, imagine that. If I don't have class now i try for an hour a day. On Saturday we usually cover it for at least an hour in class, and I teach some karate guys for another hour.

The other thing that is hard is you really need partner practice occassionally to make sure you are doing things correctly, and not just using muscle. A partner can tell immediately if you are 'doing it' correctly or not. But the majority of the work is solo.

I think like a few others have already said, I think Aikido has lost a lot of it's steam due to it's practitioners and their resistance to change. I think over the last several years there has been a consistent drop in dojo attendance and again, I think a lot of this has to do with it's traditional practitioners and the insane and unrealistic expectations they have for those traditions. I also feel that people have finally come to the realization that when they are seeking out an effective and or realistic method of self defense, Aikido isn't it.

I love Aikido, and have had the opportunity to study with some really great practitioners but that doesn't change the fact that most of the Aikido being taught is not practical or effective in a real life situation. It's so frustrating to go to class and see students take falls and submit to technique that is complete crap and I'm sorry, but there's the problem right there. That along with the complete false sense of security that comes along with the average blackbelt in Aikido.

To make matters worse you have styles like Seidokan and it's band of delusional followers that just make the situation worse than it is, if thats even possible. I also think the younger generations are not as gullible and are not going to go to learn something that isn't going to live up to the hype especially when you have so many people from UFC, Youtube, and numerous podcasts that are just bashing Aikido, it's practitioners and calling it what it is.

I've said this before and I will say it again, most people don't like Seagal Sensei, and thats fine, I'm not here to debate that. However, (and I don't care what anybody says) he helped put Aikido on the map and the method he taught (Tenshin Aikido) is still the most practical and effective method of Aikido there is. You can still find it out there although it's becoming harder and harder to find a Tenshin school and any of the older original Seagal students that still teach. I don't even know if Craig Dunn Sensei and Matsuoka Sensei even teach anymore much less the old school methods.

A couple of years ago I was driving six hours, three hours in each direction every Wednesday afternoon so I could practice Tenshin Aikido with a former Seagal Student. It was an awesome experience and believe me, there was no taking falls for anybody or anyone! You practiced the technique until it was correct, and when they went down, it was because you put them down. There was no play nice B***S*** involved.

I have read so many posts from people on here trying to make it easier for themselves to sleep at night by claiming Aikido is effective self defense, and it is effective on the street, and is effective if done correctly. Well you keep right on telling yourself that and I really do hope that it helps you sleep at night so you can avoid coming to terms with reality and the fact that you wouldn't last two seconds in an altercation with a pissed off girl scout swinging her box of cookies much less a motivated, pissed off individual thats about to make you a statistic.

Aikido has no one to blame but itself and those who refuse to evolve it. Seagal Sensei is hated by the traditionalist's because he took an ineffective method you all seem to love so much, and made it practical and effective, terms I don't think a large portion of the Aikido community comprehends.

Have a good one.

Larry Feldman wrote: Initially I was training alone, and didn't practice that much daily. More like minutes a day. I found that after 6-9 months I needed to go see Dan and hear the lesson again, which I tried to do. It is not the optimal way to learn this stuff. After doing some daily practice for 10 seconds 10 times in a day I realized I wasn't making progree as quickly as I woul dlike, so I strated doing 20 seconds, then a minute - then 20 miinutes total.....progress improved, imagine that. If I don't have class now i try for an hour a day. On Saturday we usually cover it for at least an hour in class, and I teach some karate guys for another hour. The other thing that is hard is you really need partner practice occassionally to make sure you are doing things correctly, and not just using muscle. A partner can tell immediately if you are 'doing it' correctly or not. But the majority of the work is solo.

I understand.

John Cox wrote: I think like a few others have already said, I think Aikido has lost a lot of it's steam due to it's practitioners and their resistance to change. I think over the last several years there has been a consistent drop in dojo attendance and again, I think a lot of this has to do with it's traditional practitioners and the insane and unrealistic expectations they have for those traditions. I also feel that people have finally come to the realization that when they are seeking out an effective and or realistic method of self defense, Aikido isn't it.

What traditions are you talking about?

I love Aikido, and have had the opportunity to study with some really great practitioners but that doesn't change the fact that most of the Aikido being taught is not practical or effective in a real life situation. It's so frustrating to go to class and see students take falls and submit to technique that is complete crap and I'm sorry, but there's the problem right there. That along with the complete false sense of security that comes along with the average blackbelt in Aikido.

"Practicality" and "effectiveness" aside, which techniques do you have in mind? As for the "false sense of security", do you think somebody who trains in mma has a more realistic sense of security?

To make matters worse you have styles like Seidokan and it's band of delusional followers that just make the situation worse than it is, if thats even possible. I also think the younger generations are not as gullible and are not going to go to learn something that isn't going to live up to the hype especially when you have so many people from UFC, Youtube, and numerous podcasts that are just bashing Aikido, it's practitioners and calling it what it is.

Never heard of Seidokan. Who cares what retards from the UFC and youtube talk about. You do realize those people are full of shit themselves right?

I've said this before and I will say it again, most people don't like Seagal Sensei, and thats fine, I'm not here to debate that. However, (and I don't care what anybody says) he helped put Aikido on the map and the method he taught (Tenshin Aikido) is still the most practical and effective method of Aikido there is. You can still find it out there although it's becoming harder and harder to find a Tenshin school and any of the older original Seagal students that still teach. I don't even know if Craig Dunn Sensei and Matsuoka Sensei even teach anymore much less the old school methods.

Most people don't give a f**k about Seagal or anybody else in general. They know him as an actor and that's it. If you're talking about the actual general martial arts community. Most people that I know respect him as a master of Aikido and actor and that's it. All of the bullshit drama around him, besides himself is also the fault of the media in America as it is.

Yeah he popularized Aikido for sure with his movies however by which criteria do you assume his "style" is "the most practical and effective method"?

A couple of years ago I was driving six hours, three hours in each direction every Wednesday afternoon so I could practice Tenshin Aikido with a former Seagal Student. It was an awesome experience and believe me, there was no taking falls for anybody or anyone! You practiced the technique until it was correct, and when they went down, it was because you put them down. There was no play nice B***S*** involved.

Wow, tell something I didn't practice?

I have read so many posts from people on here trying to make it easier for themselves to sleep at night by claiming Aikido is effective self defense, and it is effective on the street, and is effective if done correctly. Well you keep right on telling yourself that and I really do hope that it helps you sleep at night so you can avoid coming to terms with reality and the fact that you wouldn't last two seconds in an altercation with a pissed off girl scout swinging her box of cookies much less a motivated, pissed off individual thats about to make you a statistic.

Seriously how old are you?

Aikido has no one to blame but itself and those who refuse to evolve it. Seagal Sensei is hated by the traditionalist's because he took an ineffective method you all seem to love so much, and made it practical and effective, terms I don't think a large portion of the Aikido community comprehends.

Again how old?

Have a good one.

You too little buddy.

First off I'm fifty, former law enfacement, and have more than enough experience to have formed the opinions I have. It's also pretty clear from reading several of your posts and or reply's in the past, you are one of those traditionalists that I'm speaking of. I'm more than sure you lay down at night thinking you have some actual skill thats going to be of use if you ever needed it and I'm so very sorry that you wasted so much time and have been taken on such a delusional journey.

We can start with those traditions and ideas that so many Aikido practitioners are blinded by and that are going to leave you empty handed or worse if you ever tried them with an individual that didn't play along. A large number of Aikido's traditional techniques would never work if you again, didn't have a nice parter to play with. Also, this idea of "The Gentle Warriors Art" and do no harm is complete crap. You try playing nice in the real world and you are going to get monkey stomped even someone that thinks they are as skilled as you.

Well maybe not you because it's obvious you are one of the chosen ones, just ask you!

Absolutely someone with MMA training should have a more realistic sense of security because what they are practicing is actually "practical"! If they don't feel secure in themselves and their abilities (especially to go to the ground), they should probably find a better instructor.

Maybe your available?

Well, you may think UFC and other anti Aikido information is false and or bullshit but I guarantee you wouldn't last two seconds with any of them when push came to shove and you would end up being another reason people think Aikido is BS.

You should care about Seagal Sensei because he's seems to have been the only one that questioned the validity of what he was being taught and changed it and made it somewhat effective.

I never said you didn't practice, again by your posts in the past, you are more than invested in this form of dance and I'm more than sure you are very good at it along with all of your dance partners that give you everything you need to be successful. The problem lies in what your were taught, how you practice it and how those partners roll over for you so you can look good in your flowing Hakama held up by that pretty black belt you got for showing up to dance practice.

Most of the Aikido being taught (from a Self Defense perspective) does not work because it isn't practical and it never was! If you do Aikido for other reasons, that is wonderful and I do believe it has many benefit's outside of a practical defense system.

There you go little buddy!

John Cox wrote: First off I'm fifty, former law enfacement, and have more than enough experience to have formed the opinions I have. It's also pretty clear from reading several of your posts and or reply's in the past, you are one of those traditionalists that I'm speaking of. I'm more than sure you lay down at night thinking you have some actual skill thats going to be of use if you ever needed it and I'm so very sorry that you wasted so much time and have been taken on such a delusional journey. We can start with those traditions and ideas that so many Aikido practitioners are blinded by and that are going to leave you empty handed or worse if you ever tried them with an individual that didn't play along. A large number of Aikido's traditional techniques would never work if you again, didn't have a nice parter to play with. Also, this idea of "The Gentle Warriors Art" and do no harm is complete crap. You try playing nice in the real world and you are going to get monkey stomped even someone that thinks they are as skilled as you.

I don't give a f**k who you are and how old you are. I've meet too many retards of all ages and colors (literally and figuratively) to care about people's opinions anymore. I asked a straight question, what traditions are you talking about?

Absolutely someone with MMA training should have a more realistic sense of security because what they are practicing is actually "practical"! If they don't feel secure in themselves and their abilities (especially to go to the ground), they should probably find a better instructor.

It's practical in the ring(octagon) if you actually spend a decent amount of time training and dedicated sparring. As for the street, unless you are the one controlling the situation and you are the one putting the other person to the ground it's very fu**ing dangerous to spend time on the ground and no amount of training is going replace cautious behavior. The fact that somebody doesn't feel secure going to the ground doesn't mean they should simply find a better instructor, it also means they still have common sense to avoid dangerous situations.

Well, you may think UFC and other anti Aikido information is false and or bullshit but I guarantee you wouldn't last two seconds with any of them when push came to shove and you would end up being another reason people think Aikido is BS.

What ever helps you feel better about yourself.

You should care about Seagal Sensei because he's seems to have been the only one that questioned the validity of what he was being taught and changed it and made it somewhat effective.

Again wtf are you talking about? With all due respect to Seagal's 7th dan but according to the videos he ain't all that special. Not from my experience at least. Also he didn't do anything others haven't done before or after him. Do you actually know anything about Aikido history in general or do you just write non-sense in general?

I never said you didn't practice, again by your posts in the past, you are more than invested in this form of dance and I'm more than sure you are very good at it along with all of your dance partners that give you everything you need to be successful. The problem lies in what your were taught, how you practice it and how those partners roll over for you so you can look good in your flowing Hakama held up by that pretty black belt you got for showing up to dance practice.

It's obvious you haven't read any of my posts so stop the bullshit.

There you go little buddy!

Right back at ya little buddy.

- First off I'm fifty, former law enfacement, and have more than enough experience to have formed the opinions I have. It's also pretty clear ...such a delusional journey.

Monkey fling poo!

John Cox; First off I'm fifty, former law enfacement, and have more than enough experience to have formed the opinions I have. It's also pretty clear... on such a delusional journey.

Monkey flinging poo!

Dan's teachings on IP place the power back in Aikido, they do it for Tai Chi and any number of other arts as well. He has used it as it's own art, at speed, in the MMA world very successfully across all venues. Unfortunately it was just not passed down well to most Instrutors, or was hidden from the students, for any number of reasons.

Larry Feldman wrote: Dan's teachings on IP place the power back in Aikido, they do it for Tai Chi and any number of other arts as well. He has used it as it's own art, at speed, in the MMA world very successfully across all venues. Unfortunately it was just not passed down well to most Instrutors, or was hidden from the students, for any number of reasons.

Where in the mma world? In tournaments or regular training and sparring?

Initially many people challanged Dan at his seminars, the last one was about 28 years old with a pretty good fighting record, ex- UFC champ (Dan was probably in his 60's at the time). The kid couldn't do anything with Dan. The young man was ready to retire after the session, didn't sleep that night and came back to try again to figure out what on earth was going on, he couldn't understand why none of his 'stuff' worked. Dan explained that it would take him to long to learn IP - his fighting career would be over. He told him to come back once he retired and he would teach him then.

Many of Dan's students are BJJ or MMA students, or at least part-time students, some are Daito Ryu Ju Jitsu students. He teaches a cross section of martial artisits, because what he teaches applies across the arts. Part of what makes it so interesting.

Dan started teaching in Bulgaria, it is a relatively new group. Check his semianr schedule
www.bodyworkseminars.org for dates.

Larry Feldman wrote: Initially many people challanged Dan at his seminars, the last one was about 28 years old with a pretty good fighting record, ex- UFC champ (Dan was probably in his 60's at the time). The kid couldn't do anything with Dan. The young man was ready to retire after the session, didn't sleep that night and came back to try again to figure out what on earth was going on, he couldn't understand why none of his 'stuff' worked. Dan explained that it would take him to long to learn IP - his fighting career would be over. He told him to come back once he retired and he would teach him then. Many of Dan's students are BJJ or MMA students, or at least part-time students, some are Daito Ryu Ju Jitsu students. He teaches a cross section of martial artisits, because what he teaches applies across the arts. Part of what makes it so interesting.

What UFC champ? What did he try to do? Was it a combat setup or something much more restrictive? If he was an UFC champ then surely he must have posted about such a revolutionary experience? If it takes that long then does it have any martial applicability? Or if it allows you to beat a UFC champ then why not enter UFC even at a senior age?

Aikiweb is full of these kinds of stories, often in threads which have nothing to do with IP. Such as this one. So once again, without any details about what is being done, how it is tested, how it is applied, how it relates to aiki arts, based on what sources, it's kind of difficult to respond with anything other than

"I see. So anyway..."

It has all to do with IP, that's all Dan teaches.

Since Dan has hit the martial arts scene and decided to teach publically he has been challanged in appropriate ways, and had people cheap shot him. He has put 29 people in the hospital. All of whom provoked the confrontation, or decided they wanted to 'feel the power'. He regrets it somewhat now from what I can tell, some people gave him little choice. He has mellowed quite a bit, choosing not to hit people anymore because of the damage it can, and has done.

You are certainly welcome to be skeptical, it is a little hard to believe. It is a different paradigm to power than most have ever been exposed to. But he teaches in an open environment, you are welcome to attend a seminar and ask to 'feel the power'. Hence my earlier response that you should go feel it, feel it in yourself.

He tapped my ribs once and the entire side of my rib cage collapsed. He hit my son and my son said all the organs in his body shook as the wave of power went through him. He hit one of my students once with a "1" (on the scale of 10) and knocked him back ten + feet. My student was 260 lbs. 6'2" tall and wrestled Division I for an SEC school, he was recruited to play middle linebacker for Georgia Tech - the student told me that it was the hardest he had been hit in his life. All of us survived without injury - but duely impressed, and happy that Dan didn't use more power than he did. These are my personal first hand experiences. Your milage will not vary.

We wonder why people who experience this and are exposed to his well laid out teaching don't take up studying with him, and have concluded that they don't want to be beginners again, their ego can't take it, or they don't want to do the the extensive work it takes in terms of practice.

I chimed in because it has become evident that this was the power that O'Sensei had tapped into, that is now missing in Aikido - and most other arts that had it at one time or another. It has reinvigorated my practice after over 30 years of Aikido (and 4 of Ju Jitsu) and made it relevant to me.

No one says you have to learn new things, or challenge yourself, I'm just laying out an option that I thought I was getting when I trained in Aikido, but which was missing even though I trained under a direct student of O'Sensei, (after 8 years in the art). I wish I had the option when I was younger, but it was unavailable to me then.

Go see what is being offered or remain behind your keyboard, and justify either one, the choice is yours. But you are missing out on something substantive in the martial arts and proper body movement, that your teachers were not taught - or that they won't teach you (more an indictment of the Chinese arts). I wish I was exposed to it earlier, but I wanted the 'magic', taught in English, I didn't want more techniques. I have been luck enough to find it. AIkido is now more relevant for it.

Personally the less people that train with Dan, the more time I get with him, so it's no benefit to me if you train. The subject was relevancy of Aikido and the lack of participation from those with Experience. I tried to solve both.

Larry Feldman wrote: Since Dan has hit the martial arts scene and decided to teach publically he has been challanged in appropriate ways, and had people cheap shot him. He has put 29 people in the hospital. All of whom provoked the confrontation, or decided they wanted to 'feel the power'. He regrets it somewhat now from what I can tell, some people gave him little choice. He has mellowed quite a bit, choosing not to hit people anymore because of the damage it can, and has done.

So no information about who this UFC champion was? Or the circumstances of that confrontation?

Larry Feldman wrote: You are certainly welcome to be skeptical, it is a little hard to believe. It is a different paradigm to power than most have ever been exposed to. But he teaches in an open environment, you are welcome to attend a seminar and ask to 'feel the power'. Hence my earlier response that you should go feel it, feel it in yourself.

I do practise Daito Ryu and am somewhat familiar with some of the body power concepts (which do appear in aikido as well, depending on teacher).

Larry Feldman wrote: He tapped my ribs once and the entire side of my rib cage collapsed. He hit my son and my son said all the organs in his body shook as the wave of power went through him. He hit one of my students once with a "1" (on the scale of 10) and knocked him back ten + feet. My student was 260 lbs. 6'2" tall and wrestled Division I for an SEC school, he was recruited to play middle linebacker for Georgia Tech - the student told me that it was the hardest he had been hit in his life. All of us survived without injury - but duely impressed, and happy that Dan didn't use more power than he did. These are my personal first hand experiences. Your milage will not vary.

This is something you can feel with a good karateka too btw.

Larry Feldman wrote: We wonder why people who experience this and are exposed to his well laid out teaching don't take up studying with him, and have concluded that they don't want to be beginners again, their ego can't take it, or they don't want to do the the extensive work it takes in terms of practice.

I think you're making many assumptions. Why don't you ask them? Or invite them to share their experiences here?

Larry Feldman wrote: I chimed in because it has become evident that this was the power that O'Sensei had tapped into, that is now missing in Aikido - and most other arts that had it at one time or another. It has reinvigorated my practice after over 30 years of Aikido (and 4 of Ju Jitsu) and made it relevant to me.

What do you base those claims on? People pushing on O'Sensei's head is a form of practise that I have, for instance, seen in aikido (and doesn't take decades to learn).

Larry Feldman wrote: Personally the less people that train with Dan, the more time I get with him, so it's no benefit to me if you train. The subject was relevancy of Aikido and the lack of participation from those with Experience. I tried to solve both.

This is the core of my point: the subject was relevance of Aikiweb (meaning this web forum, or did you read the subject wrong?). What does this IP discussion have to do with that subject? And what's the point of discussing the IP things given that you aren't willing to share any actual details to substantiate your claims? Can you see why many people roll their eyes at the mention of IP or aiki, and how many discussions — if you can even call them that — follow the exact pattern that we are seeing here?

I have nothing against people learning this and being excited about it, and it's great you have found something you want to develop. Honestly. I'm supportive of that. At the same time pretty much all mentions of aiki or internal power on aikiweb add very little to the discussion and quickly go nowhere (as demonstrated here).

T my knowledge, the MMA guy just asked to roll with Dan and they did. He trried all his usual moves and got nowhere. It was a lesson in I.P.

Why don't I chase people who leave and don't study once they feel it, I would rather practice. People put their own limits on themselves, and that's their business.

O"sensei had many quotes that made no sense as he described what he was doing. All are explained through the IP practice I was shown. The John Steven explanation of purple smoke and golden vapos is the only other explanation profferred. He was a man, so why can't other men do what he did?

Is Aikiweb relevant, is Aikido relevant? The world has run to MMA, so some would say we aren't relevant anymore. I beleive IP can bring back some of the relevance to our art. Imaizumi Sensei went to weapons study when he got 'bored' with AIkido. IP offers a deeper path to the physical practice.

All the 'armchair quarterbacks' want a description and videos. They are asking the wrong questions. They should be asking where can I go feel it, and who will teach it to me in a forthright manner. Then they can make an informed decision. Learning how to manipulate the tendon facial chains in your body is not something you will get at your keyboard. It's why 'those discussions go nowhere'. consistently from everyone who has tried to explain or educate. There is more and more material appearing about fascia, Thomas Meyers Anatomy Trains (video link provided prior) is not a bad start. Go look at Heb Goldberg video or some othe mostly Tai Chi IP videos - but you will not get any usable skill from either.

If it interests you - go see for yourself. Dan advocates anyone else teeaching this stuff - he is not the only one.

John Cox wrote: I think like a few others have already said, I think Aikido has lost a lot of it's steam due to it's practitioners and their resistance to change. I think over the last several years there has been a consistent drop in dojo attendance and again, I think a lot of this has to do with it's traditional practitioners and the insane and unrealistic expectations they have for those traditions. I also feel that people have finally come to the realization that when they are seeking out an effective and or realistic method of self defense, Aikido isn't it. I love Aikido, and have had the opportunity to study with some really great practitioners but that doesn't change the fact that most of the Aikido being taught is not practical or effective in a real life situation. It's so frustrating to go to class and see students take falls and submit to technique that is complete crap and I'm sorry, but there's the problem right there. That along with the complete false sense of security that comes along with the average blackbelt in Aikido. To make matters worse you have styles like Seidokan and it's band of delusional followers that just make the situation worse than it is, if thats even possible. I also think the younger generations are not as gullible and are not going to go to learn something that isn't going to live up to the hype especially when you have so many people from UFC, Youtube, and numerous podcasts that are just bashing Aikido, it's practitioners and calling it what it is. I've said this before and I will say it again, most people don't like Seagal Sensei, and thats fine, I'm not here to debate that. However, (and I don't care what anybody says) he helped put Aikido on the map and the method he taught (Tenshin Aikido) is still the most practical and effective method of Aikido there is. You can still find it out there although it's becoming harder and harder to find a Tenshin school and any of the older original Seagal students that still teach. I don't even know if Craig Dunn Sensei and Matsuoka Sensei even teach anymore much less the old school methods. A couple of years ago I was driving six hours, three hours in each direction every Wednesday afternoon so I could practice Tenshin Aikido with a former Seagal Student. It was an awesome experience and believe me, there was no taking falls for anybody or anyone! You practiced the technique until it was correct, and when they went down, it was because you put them down. There was no play nice B***S*** involved. I have read so many posts from people on here trying to make it easier for themselves to sleep at night by claiming Aikido is effective self defense, and it is effective on the street, and is effective if done correctly. Well you keep right on telling yourself that and I really do hope that it helps you sleep at night so you can avoid coming to terms with reality and the fact that you wouldn't last two seconds in an altercation with a pissed off girl scout swinging her box of cookies much less a motivated, pissed off individual thats about to make you a statistic. Aikido has no one to blame but itself and those who refuse to evolve it. Seagal Sensei is hated by the traditionalist's because he took an ineffective method you all seem to love so much, and made it practical and effective, terms I don't think a large portion of the Aikido community comprehends. Have a good one.

Pretty much this. Out of all Aikido modernizations, Tenshin Aikido was the one that was moving it in more or less correct direction, which preserved its distinct identity without converting it into full-on MMA, and made it somewhat applicable against at least untrained attackers.

Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: Pretty much this. Out of all Aikido modernizations, Tenshin Aikido was the one that was moving it in more or less correct direction, which preserved its distinct identity without converting it into full-on MMA, and made it somewhat applicable against at least untrained attackers.

Seriously how do you people train Aikido in general when the Tenshin stuff is "somewhat" applicable against "at least untrained attackers"? Like that idiot from youtube Rokas or how exactly?

Igor Vojnović wrote: Seriously how do you people train Aikido in general when the Tenshin stuff is "somewhat" applicable against "at least untrained attackers"? Like that idiot from youtube Rokas or how exactly?

Well, I trained in a traditional school for many years, and they typically avoided jiyu-waza. And when they did jiyu-waza, it was just against the two-hand grab.

Then I went to a more modernized school and they actually had "fun" jiyu-waza - against random Aikido attacks, including tsuki, but executed at moderate speed. And, they did this with random ukes coming in from random directions. And we were allowed to actually keep our hands higher to protect our faces. They did this at maybe 50% of classes.

After a couple of years of that, I was assaulted by untrained attackers during a public protest. Lucky for me, the attackers were uncoordinated and didn't attack at the same time.

That exact "fun jiyu-waza" is what allowed me to maintain soft vision and react with deflections of punches and kicks until the fight was broken up.

Tenshin Aikido includes this sort of training, in fact it doubles down on it, so I like to make it an example of good Aikido modernization toward something that's actually applicable.

Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: Well, I trained in a traditional school for many years, and they typically avoided jiyu-waza. And when they did jiyu-waza, it was just against the two-hand grab. Then I went to a more modernized school and they actually had "fun" jiyu-waza - against random Aikido attacks, including tsuki, but executed at moderate speed. And, they did this with random ukes coming in from random directions. And we were allowed to actually keep our hands higher to protect our faces. They did this at maybe 50% of classes. After a couple of years of that, I was assaulted by untrained attackers during a public protest. Lucky for me, the attackers were uncoordinated and didn't attack at the same time. That exact "fun jiyu-waza" is what allowed me to maintain soft vision and react with deflections of punches and kicks until the fight was broken up. Tenshin Aikido includes this sort of training, in fact it doubles down on it, so I like to make it an example of good Aikido modernization toward something that's actually applicable.

I think this varies hugely from dojo to dojo. Even some of the more 'martial' lines might do quite little jiyuwaza. Our club does it almost every class, even though the sensei doesn't go on about being the True Real Combat Aikido, but just aikido. Attacks usually agreed upon. As you approach black belt then the multi attacker scenario comes in and we practise it in various ways and basically it is a bit up to the person doing to agree with their ukes on the speed, variation and intensity they want to show.

At the Daito Ryu club randori is a frequent thing (any attack, sometimes with kaeshiwaza, or even a bit of heavier grappling, depending on the people).

Jiyuwaza is a fantastic tool and where aikido truly starts to come alive.