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Old 11-21-2004, 04:56 PM   #51
Niko Salgado
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Chris, the BJJ instructor is in part trying to do his "advertising" job to lure you in. Works on little kids, but I was no longer a kid as soon as I started Aikido. At least I didn't feel like it, since I was 14.
I personally don't like those who make the comparison. He speaks as if he knows Aikido.

If I, being close to 250 lbs., had asked him the same thing, he would've said either 350 or 400 lbs guy pinning you to the ground with his body. Then I would've told him if someone that heavy was trying to get me to the ground, I would apply "running-do".. Otherwise, I may sound cocky with this, but I am confident, that if I had to go even 1 on 1 with that BJJ instructor, I know I wouldn't win, I just wouldn't lose. You can apply Aikido to as much as the situation allows you to, but when you're stuck, you just apply the principles to survive.

Anyway, no point in anything I've said previous. But I'll tell you 2 things that sensei's have told me:

1. 7th degree in Judo sensei told me- it's legal to tickle in shiai, still don't know what it could do in a real fight.

2. 6th degree in Aikido- How do you get out of an Aikido technique/pin? If it's not much trouble, pinch, as hard as you can.

A piece of knowledge I came up with is to know that if you are in a fight, the odds are never fair. It's legit to perform unfair techniques if it better suits you. Anyway, I'd say to ditch that BJJ place for its high and mighty attitude, it wouldn't help you as much as a friendly BJJ place would be as far as encouraging other arts.
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Old 11-21-2004, 05:19 PM   #52
Chris Birke
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

To some small extent, BJJ doesn't understand any martial art that doesn't actively and continually throw itself into a cage or streetfight for "testing" purposes.
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Old 11-21-2004, 05:26 PM   #53
Aristeia
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

It's more correct to say they don't understand any art that doesn't functionalise their technique through full resistance sparring - doesn't have to be in the cage or street, or even involve strikes.
What they don't get that there may be good reasons why adding competitive sparring to some arts might be to their detriment.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 11-21-2004, 06:11 PM   #54
Aristeia
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Yeah....I was trying for 'subtle' / jedi mind trick.

'These are not your droids'.
Hey if someone can supply me with the missing component, I'm all over it.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 11-21-2004, 09:49 PM   #55
CNYMike
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
To some small extent, BJJ doesn't understand any martial art that doesn't actively and continually throw itself into a cage or streetfight for "testing" purposes.
It's worth noting that in a self defense situation, you have two goals -- survival and escape. In contrast, the goals of an NHB match are to win it by knockout, choke, or submission. A slightly different circumstance.

This doesn't mean that BJJ/MMA systems can't work on the street. Of course they can; they have valid point that one should know what to do if you are taken down and someone is on top of you. There are plenty of MMA people who swear by their systems because they worked in real life situation, but pecentage-wise, there may be as many Aikdoka who sweat by Aikido for exactly the same reason.

All an NHB match proves is what works in a NHB match, but with both MMA and Aikido vouched for in self defense situations, NHB matches don't seem to be good predictors of what will and won't work in self defense situations.
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Old 11-21-2004, 10:14 PM   #56
Michael Young
 
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Thumbs down Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
All an NHB match proves is what works in a NHB match, but with both MMA and Aikido vouched for in self defense situations, NHB matches don't seem to be good predictors of what will and won't work in self defense situations
Now that is one of the most sensible posts I have seen in this thread, nicely put.

Mike
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Old 11-22-2004, 12:21 AM   #57
Aristeia
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
It's worth noting that in a self defense situation, you have two goals -- survival and escape. In contrast, the goals of an NHB match are to win it by knockout, choke, or submission. A slightly different circumstance.
That may be the goal of a "match" but the goal of BJJ is to dominate position so you can decide what happens next. Be it disengage or snap or nap.

Quote:
There are plenty of MMA people who swear by their systems because they worked in real life situation, but pecentage-wise, there may be as many Aikdoka who sweat by Aikido for exactly the same reason.

All an NHB match proves is what works in a NHB match, but with both MMA and Aikido vouched for in self defense situations, NHB matches don't seem to be good predictors of what will and won't work in self defense situations.
I disagree. The percentage you allude to is the thing. Take the pool of people that have done 2-3 years of BJJ and attempted to use it for self defence, and those that have done a comprable time training in Aikido and attempted to use it in self defence. I'll bet all the money in my pocket against all the money in your pocket that the success percentages are much higher in BJJ.
But that's ok. That doesn't invalidate aikido. Like I've said before, hands up all those for whom self defence was the only crieteria in choosing a martial art when they signed up for Aikido? Exactly. we sacrifice some things in terms of gaining absolutely reliable SD skills in a short time frame, in return for other things. It's a trade off.
Aikido should not be your number one choice for self defence. BJJ should not be your number one choice for physically practicing a certain philosophy. Depending on the mix of things an individual is looking to get out of training (including Self Defence) Aikido can be the best choice, or BJJ can, or Tai Chi or Muay Thai.....

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 11-22-2004, 09:54 AM   #58
CNYMike
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
..... Take the pool of people that have done 2-3 years of BJJ and attempted to use it for self defence, and those that have done a comprable time training in Aikido and attempted to use it in self defence. I'll bet all the money in my pocket against all the money in your pocket that the success percentages are much higher in BJJ....
Maybe. Maybe it's the other way around. Or maybe something else beats out both, so we both "lose" this round. The point is that if every martial art in the world, including Aikido and BJJ, is backed by people who claimed to have used it in self defense situations, can anyone point to different arts and accurately predict what will work and what won't? I don't think so.

Quote:
..... Like I've said before, hands up all those for whom self defence was the only crieteria in choosing a martial art when they signed up for Aikido? Exactly .....
Self defense is a reason for why people look into all martial arts, including Aikido. In the case of Aikido, some might be attracted by the idea of defending themselves without seriously hurting their assailants. <shrug> That's how it seems to be billed sometimes, anyway!
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Old 11-22-2004, 09:54 AM   #59
CNYMike
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Michael Young wrote:
Now that is one of the most sensible posts I have seen in this thread, nicely put.

Mike
Thanks.
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Old 11-23-2004, 03:52 AM   #60
rachel
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Wow, I'm so completely unimpressed by so many people here. Just a quick question, if you think aikido is such crap, why do you practice it? I'm assuming you do, you're here...
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Old 11-23-2004, 04:32 AM   #61
grondahl
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Rachel Klein wrote:
Wow, I'm so completely unimpressed by so many people here. Just a quick question, if you think aikido is such crap, why do you practice it? I'm assuming you do, you're here...
Who has said that aikido is crap?
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Old 11-23-2004, 04:39 AM   #62
rachel
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

No one has flat out said that Aikido is crap, but a few comments have treated it as such. I just don't understand why people would train in an art that they don't believe in.
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Old 11-23-2004, 05:20 AM   #63
happysod
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Recognising aikido may have some "holes" in it's arsenal isn't saying it's crap, just standard critical thinking. Most people have indicated they find aikido useful, just have their own ideas on its best use, distance etc. The only direct negative comparison I read was concerning training methods rather than the actual arts themselves and it's probably justified. Many threads have said aikido's for the long haul...

I've also yet to read that anyone claims BJJ is the complete martial art to take either. Most who are looking for that "complete fighter" profile generally cross-train anyway.
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Old 11-23-2004, 08:36 AM   #64
Michael Young
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Here are some questions for those of you that do cross train. How do you view this cross training? Do you consider yourself an Aikidoka who is expanding your horizons? In other words, are you cross training to improve your Aikido training? or Are you doing Aikido to improve your other MA? Do you consider them completely seperate? (which I think you'd be decieving yourself if you did). At heart what do you consider yourself, an Aikidoka or "BJJ'er" or whatever...yes I know I'm going to get the answer along the lines of "I'm a mixed MA'er who considers them seperate but equal arts that enhance each other" and "each art has it's strength and weaknesses" answer. But I'm more interested in how you classify yourself at heart (come on...you know you have a preference for one over the other )

Mike
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Old 11-23-2004, 09:20 AM   #65
wendyrowe
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

No question: in my heart, I am first and foremost an aikidoka even though I started karate before I discovered aikido and have continued training in karate. And still, even though I'm training in groundwork techniques to fill in the gaps and in tai chi because it ties everything together.
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Old 11-23-2004, 09:29 AM   #66
rachel
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Do you consider yourself an Aikidoka who is expanding your horizons?
I'm currently training in Aikido, Judo, Kendo and Kyudo. As much as I enjoy the others I've been doing Aikido about 15 years longer, so I'm kinda biased.
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Old 11-23-2004, 09:33 AM   #67
happysod
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

I'm a tree hugging, skirt wearing aiki-fruity and proud of it - they'll never take my unbendable arm away from me! However, that's just my opinion and some people who have actually seen my technique may believe I'm flattering myself.... to be serious, I train in other arts to improve my aikido.
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Old 11-23-2004, 10:23 AM   #68
Chad Sloman
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

I concurrently practice Judo (ne waza heavy), Aikido and Atarashii Naginata. I've been practicing Aikido the longest, but I'd rather not commit to calling myself "just an Aikidoka", but rather a Budoka, as I enjoy training in the Japanese Martial Systems. I typically divorce my aikido from my judo and vice versa determined on which class I'm in, mainly because of the lack of small joint manipulation in Judo. I will say that my tachi waza has definite Aiki flavor and my Aikido probably would be viewed by some as "rough". But for me, it's all about the practice and most importantly THE FUN!

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 11-23-2004, 10:35 AM   #69
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Michael,

That is a very interesting question!

I cross train to fill the holes that I see in aikido to give myself as many options as I can.

But I don't see my training as separate. I firmly believe in principles rather than techniques and that the principles are the same regardless of the art. So when I'm working punching combinations on the hand targets with a partner, I'm still concentrating on maintaining my posture and balance and using my legs and hips to generate power rather than my arms. In addition I'm also constantly making adjustments in distance and angles. I'm working the same principles but training them in different ways and developing different skills.

Last night while working roundhouse kicks I was able to work full speed and full power with one partner so I did. I worked on maintaining my posture and balance, generating power from my hips, angle of attack... starts to get repetitive. then I had a much smaller partner so I worked with much less speed and power. I started working on form, maintaining my posture and balance, using my hips rather than my legs, and angle of attack.... yep same principles

Chris

Chris
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Old 11-23-2004, 02:12 PM   #70
CNYMike
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Michael Young wrote:
Here are some questions for those of you that do cross train. How do you view this cross training? Do you consider yourself an Aikidoka who is expanding your horizons? In other words, are you cross training to improve your Aikido training? or Are you doing Aikido to improve your other MA? Do you consider them completely seperate? (which I think you'd be decieving yourself if you did). At heart what do you consider yourself, an Aikidoka or "BJJ'er" or whatever...yes I know I'm going to get the answer along the lines of "I'm a mixed MA'er who considers them seperate but equal arts that enhance each other" and "each art has it's strength and weaknesses" answer. But I'm more interested in how you classify yourself at heart (come on...you know you have a preference for one over the other )

Mike
Hi, Mike ...

That's a good question.

I suppose that strictly speaking, I'm a karateka who's cross-training in other things, although I have a much stronger interest in Aikido -- I have more books on Aikido than in other arts, and I am positively addicted to the NEW YORK AIKIKAI 2002 PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE tape I loaned to one of the guys from the Kali/Serak class I go to.

I got back into Aikido mainly because I like Aikido. I can justify it: Aikido expands on the internal elements that I've been exploring in Tai Chi, and these, in turn, complement the harder, more "combative" elements I've been practicing in karate, LaCoste-Inosanto Kali, and now, Pentjak Silat Serak, but really, I got back into Aikido because it got under my skin in the late '80s and that's it --- the end.

Looking at Aikido after more than a decade of exposure to other things makes it interesting. There are some things that I think are sensible; the evasive footwork, especially going forward at an angle, is also found in Kali and Serak and God only know where else, so it is a good idea. Some things, like extending your arms fully, might be suicidal against my Kali instructor; I can see him saying "Thank you" before you splat into the floor. Somethings I put a mental asterix next to, because I'm not crazy about them but that just might be my ignnorance of Aikido (and, in all honesty, the other arts I'm comparing it to). And some things are neat.

Overall, Aikido probably isn't hurting me any; my aforementioned Kali instructor encouraged me to do it when I told him I had been thinking about it! And it zeroes in on certain areas that, because of the vastness of their curiculums, don't come up as often in Kali and Serak.

Although I do a little bit of almost everything when I train on my own, my current project is to learn to compartmentalize my training somehow. Because joint locks and throws are very prominent in Kali and Serak and in my karate sensei's take on karate, thinking about them all at the same time can make me feel like my head is going to explode. It is difficult; one night in Aikido, Sensei Larry demonstrated and arm lock in response to kata dori munetski (or something like that); the very next night, in Kali/Serak, Pembantu Andy demonstrated the SAME EXACT POSITION, although with a slightly different purpose.

Boom!

Oh, crap, another bloody mess all over the place.

So, does that answer your question?

What was your question?

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Old 11-23-2004, 03:28 PM   #71
Michael Young
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Thanks all, very nice replies to my questions, I particularly liked Michael's and Chris's. Thanks for so much detail. I am a little short on time right now, so I'll post some of my own thoughts and experiences later. (I just want to keep this thread alive right now )

Mike
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Old 11-23-2004, 03:46 PM   #72
Rocky Izumi
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

I would like to assert that every time my BJJ friend and I had a competition, I put him on the ground. He usually collapsed after the 7th or 8th beer and I was good for at least another three Tsingtao. Right, A.C.?

Choose your weapons wisely.

The irreverent and irrelevant,
Rock
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Old 11-23-2004, 04:16 PM   #73
JMartinez
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Ai symbol Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Please read what this Judo Sensei has to say about BJJ and his experience. I agree with him entirely.
Here is an interesting look at the Gracies. It is by a famous judo stylist named Mehdi who has taught the Gracies judo. He teaches the older form of judo, his students are about as good at ground as they are at standup so they do very well in BJJ tournaments and the mundials. He has also taught many BJJ fighters such as Sperry, Rolls and Rickson gracie and all will tell you is a touph dude. He beat Swain in a randori match. Rolls centered his strategy around Mehdis principal of doing a good throw(hopefully to knock the person out or injure them, Rolls Gracie has won matches like that and so has Mehdi and his students) and then from there dominant position do a submission. I am suprised none of Mehdis students have done UFC or Pride although I am pretty sure they have done vale tudo in Brazil. Anyways here is the article. http://www.geocities.com/global_trai...port/mehdi.htm
Here is the actual article.
"I had passed by the Mehdi Academia de Judo on R. Visconde de Piraja 411 in Ipanema more times than I could count. Sylvio Behring recommended that I meet Mehdi. So did many other people. "Mehdi knows everything. He's been here forever", they'd say, or something like it.
One late afternoon, I did stop in. The door was open. Mehdi was napping on the tatame. I rapped on the wall to let him know I was there, but he already knew. I told him that I lived in Japan and wanted to see how judo is practiced in Brazil. He liked that.

Kastriot "George" Mehdi came to Rio on vacation from the south coast of France, near Cannes, in 1949. He decided to stay. He had studied judo before, in France, and wanted to continue. There was judo in São Paulo among the Japanese immigrant community, but in Rio, the closest thing to judo was jiu-jitsu.

The place to learn it was 151 Av. Rio Branco in the Central District. That's where Carlos and Helio Gracie had their large academy (for more about this academy see Robson).

Mehdi enrolled.

Carlos, Helio, Robson, Carlson, and the other instructors at the academy emphasized ground fighting because, they said, it was more effective and more realistic. In a street fight or self-defense situation, four things could be expected. First, the attacker would probably be bigger. Second, he would be attacking. Third, whoever was getting hit would probably clinch to avoid getting hit some more. And fourth, sooner or later, one or both people would fall down. The Gracie system was predicated on these four assumptions.

Mehdi's interpretation was different. The Gracies emphasized ground fighting because they "don't know how to throw". Why get your clothes dirty if you don't have to, Mehdi says?

Mehdi's view was that a good throw can make ground fighting unnecessary. And even if the fight goes on, you are going to be in a much better position after dropping or slamming your opponent onto the ground from five feet up in the air, no matter how you look at it. Ukemi or no ukemi, it hurts.

A correctly executed throw is also beautiful to behold, Mehdi believed, whereas holding someone between your legs for the entire fight or match, while ok for a woman in a street survival situation, is unbecoming of a trained martial artist. Romero Jacare and Mehdi's former students Sylvio Behring and Rickson Gracie, believe Mehdi has a point.

However, when two fighters are evenly matched and the rules permit them to stay in the guard, it's inevitable that this will happen. It's a problem with the rules, or the officiating, rather than the techniques, Sylvio says. Mehdi agrees entirely. It's the rules that make jiu-jitsu what it is and what it shouldn't be. That's precisely what's wrong with it. That's the point.

It wasn't only the Gracie's emphasis on ground fighting Mehdi didn't care for, it was the Gracies themselves. "Fighting and lying. I don't like. Judo should make a better person, not someone who fights in the street". He mentions as an example of Gracie mendacity the time Helio announced that a French judo "champion" was learning from him. "He was just a beginner, not a champion", Mehdi says.

(Anyone watching Gracie in Action 1 and 2 might have detected a certain penchant on Rorion's part for exaggerating the skills and achievements of the opponents of his family and its "representatives". Rorion describes the guys who challenged him and his brothers (or accepted their challenge) in the USA as " experts", "masters", "champions", or at the very least "instructors". In Brazil, the Gracies generally describe their challengers as palhaços (clowns).

For Mehdi, the simple fact that the Gracie's call their style "jiu-jitsu" is evidence of dishonesty. "It's all judo," he says.

(Mehdi may be right that all jiu-jitsu techniques are really judo. Jiu-jitsu guys don't mind that their techniques came from somewhere else. On the contrary, they are proud of it—every retelling of the Gracie story begins with Carlos's encounter with Mitsuo Maeda. You can see most jiu-jitsu techniques on old Kosen Judo tapes. You won't see many of them in judo dojos however. And most crucially, what you won't see on these tapes or in old books is how to set them up. This is where the Brazilians have taken newaza to a higher level.)

Mehdi gave up on Gracie jiu-jitsu and went to Japan immediately after the American Occupation ended in 1952. Among others, he trained with Kimura Masahiko, who defeated Helio the year before. He stayed five years as a student at Tenri University in Nara. Kimuras's fight with Helio, Mehdi says, "was a joke". Kimura agreed to stall for 10 minutes, Mehdi says, to give the fans their money's worth and begin fighting after that. Mehdi imitated Helio's footwork in the match, exaggerating its awkwardness. Thirteen minutes into the fight, Kimura finished Helio with a shoulder lock, which the Brazilians now call "Kimura" in his honor ("don't call it "Kimura", Mehdi admonishes—it's ude garami"). There was some talk of fixing the actual outcome of the fight, but the Japanese embassy reportedly warned Kimura that if he lost he wouldn't be welcome back home in Japan anymore. A certain degree of choreography could be accepted but for Japan's greatest champion to lose to a scrawny gaijin, that would be too much.

As another example of the Gracie's flexible attitude with regard to accuracy, Mehdi says Kimura weighed 80 kilos, not the 100 usually claimed (he showed me a picture of himself and Kimura at about the time of the contest; they appeared to be the same height and weight, and Mehdi is about 5'9" and 80 kilos. On the other hand, Kimura weighed 86 kilos for his final judo shiai in Tokyo in 1949. It is possible that he put on some kilos during the two years between the contests.)

Mehdi, who received his 8 dan kodokan rating in 1979, is not just an "encyclopedia" of technique (according to Cleiber Maia, who owns black belts in both judo and jiu-jitsu and was a Brazilian freestyle wrestling champion). He was a successful competitor too, dominating Brazilian judo for years. Mike Swain visited Mehdi's dojo just after winning the world 71 kg. Championship in 1987 (his Brazilian wife was from Rio). Swain was understandably confident. While practicing a particular throw, Mehdi corrected his grip. Swain rashly invited, or according to some versions, challenged Mehdi to show him in a randori situation. Mehdi threw Swain across the room and into the wall (this story was recounted to me by both Sylvio Behring and Cleiber Maia, although neither could recall who the American judo champion was. Mehdi provided that information along with a quotation from Swain telling Mehdi's students that, "voces não sabem a sorte que voces tem em serem alunos do Professor Mehdi, com todo conhecimento e technica" [you don't know how fortunate you are to have a teacher like Mehdi, with all his knowledge and technique].)

Mehdi was reluctant to talk about the Gracies. It's no secret in Rio that he doesn't like them. Why write about the Gracies, when there are great Japanese champions to write about, he asks? Because I'm writing about Brazilian jiu-jitsu, I explained. "Why?" he asked, seeming genuinely puzzled as to why anyone would care. He was reticent about himself too, for the same reason. It isn't jiu-jitsu as such that he disliked, because he liked Marcello Behring. [Marcello was better at ground fighting than Rickson, says Mehdi. Sylvio says it isn't true. "You have to remember, Mehdi loved my brother; he hated the Gracies"].

Mehdi loves the Japanese "mentality". It's that just as much throws chokes, locks, and hold-downs that he teaches. As one of his former students, Mario Sperry said, "I learned so much from Mehdi, not just judo and jiu-jiutsu, but other things too, like honor and respect".

Maybe it's the Brazilian mentality he doesn't care for? He denies that. Brazilians are undisciplined (compared to the Japanese, who isn't?), but he likes them. It's the Gracies themselves he doesn't like, and specifically their "mentality"—lying and brawling.

He also thought it was ludicrous for someone with a mere black belt to pretend to teach anything to anyone. "In Japan a teacher needs 20-30 years of experience before he teaches". I didn't tell him that people actually teach jiu-jitsu with a blue belt, in some places. Not in Rio of course. That was the key. In Japan, teachers have 20-30 years of experience because Japan is full of good judo players, just as Rio is full of good jiu-jitsu players. I also suspect Mehdi didn't realize that a jiu-jitsu black belt represents six or seven or more years of study, while judo black belts, at least in Japan, are routinely awarded in less than two years, sometimes less than one.

However little Mehdi may have liked Carlos and Helio and their brothers, he never objected to teaching their offspring and students. In addition to Rickson and the Behring Brothers, Carlson Jr., Mario Sperry, Murilo Bustamante, Wallid Ismail and many others have spent time on Mehdi's mats. According to one jiu-jitsu instructor (also a former Mehdi student), Rolls Gracie himself learned judo from Mehdi.

And Mehdi shared a certain attitude with the jiu-jitsu community. He took it for granted that I wanted to train. Where's your gi, he asked? I was cautious. The ju in judo means gentle but there's nothing gentle about being dropped on your head or back from five feet off the ground. However, I wanted to get to know Mehdi better, and he seemed eager to have me participate in a class, so I did.

Everyone told me Mehdi's classes were intense. The warm-up alone was enough to wipe you out if you weren't in top shape. I watched a class to confirm that. However, the class ran from 6 to 8:30, and was loosely structured. The first part, 30 minutes, was the "warm-up"; the second part was new technique (or review as the case may be). The third part was traditional uchikomi (setting up the throw without actually executing it) and the fourth was randori (free sparring, or, the standing version of "rolling"). This is standard practice in every judo dojo everywhere. That would take more or less an hour, but those who wanted to could stay longer and continue their practice in whatever form they preferred. They could also arrive whenever they felt like it and begin with whatever they wanted. In other words, they could skip most of the warm-up if they wanted to. Some people came late and left early. The kids came early. Mehdi was sitting on a bench chatting with me, shouting commands, and now and then getting up to correct a student's form. The warm-up was led by an adult with a black belt and a ponytail. When uchikomi began he put on a large mechanical knee brace. "Judo injury?" I asked Mehdi. "Yes", he said, "his shoulder too".

I came a little late the next day, hoping to miss at least some of the "warm-up" (I planned to visit Alexandre Paiva's academy later that evening and anticipated being invited to roll, as never failed to happen everywhere). All I missed was 30 laps around the dojo, but that helped. Mehdi introduced me to the class and said he was going to teach a special class in my honor, and asked me what I wanted to learn. I said, newaza, and especially the technique I saw them practicing the previous day, a choke counter to opponent's attempted seio-nage. Mehdi also demonstrated a very painful choke (which Alvaro Barreto also showed me a few days later!) and a nice variation on Kimura (ude garami) that works even if opponent hangs on to his own belt.

What do you think? he asked me after. "Impressive, interesting", I said. "I like newaza", I elaborated. "Nage-waza is dangerous". I was thinking about his black belt assistant with the knee brace and bum shoulder. "Yes", Mehdi agreed, "judo is dangerous. But I love it."

I mentioned that I planned to fight in the Internacional de Masters e Seniors tournament later that month, and asked him for some tips on how to get off to a good start. He suggested some hiza guruma variations and practiced them with me. Cleiber Maia was right, and so was Sylvio Behring, Café, Mario Sperry, and Mike Swain. Mehdi knew a lot.

Interesting guy, this Mehdi."
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Old 11-23-2004, 04:44 PM   #74
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Rachel Klein wrote:
Wow, I'm so completely unimpressed by so many people here. Just a quick question, if you think aikido is such crap, why do you practice it? I'm assuming you do, you're here...
Wow, you must be reading a different thread. Some of us have voiced our opinions on where Aikido has holes, but no one's said it's crap. Just because we don't claim aikido to be the most bad ass kick your ass system on the planet isn't the same as saying it's crap.

Let's take a car analogy. If I want to get from A to B really quickly I might get a Ferrari. But just because a Ferrari is faster doesn't mean my 4x4 is crap. The Ferrari owner and the 4x4 owner share some goals - getting from A to B, but have different priorities in how to accomplish that. The 4x4 owner sacrifices speed for other benefits, but his vehicle will still get him to destination ina reasonable time frame.

Similarly here. Aikido is good for self defence. Other arts may be better, or may give you that self defence ability sooner. But that's ok, because we are prepared to sacrifice some of that for other benefits, particularly when you do still get self defence tools along with those benefits.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 11-23-2004, 04:48 PM   #75
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Michael Young wrote:
Here are some questions for those of you that do cross train. How do you view this cross training? Do you consider yourself an Aikidoka who is expanding your horizons? In other words, are you cross training to improve your Aikido training? or Are you doing Aikido to improve your other MA? Do you consider them completely seperate? (which I think you'd be decieving yourself if you did). At heart what do you consider yourself, an Aikidoka or "BJJ'er" or whatever...yes I know I'm going to get the answer along the lines of "I'm a mixed MA'er who considers them seperate but equal arts that enhance each other" and "each art has it's strength and weaknesses" answer. But I'm more interested in how you classify yourself at heart (come on...you know you have a preference for one over the other )

Mike
I cross train to varying degrees in BJJ, Judo and Ninjitsu. Put a gun to my head and ask for a preference and it'll be Aikido and BJJ
I will first classify myself as an Aikidoka for a couple of reasons.
1. I have been studying it the longest and know it in the most detail
2. I tend to be interested in the other arts in terms of how they fit into aikido.
That is to say because Aikido is my base, it is somewhat inevitable that I view other arts from that perspective. But there's alot of good stuff you can take from those arts, both in terms of technique and training methods/approach that you can bring back into the aikido dojo.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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