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Old 11-18-2004, 02:36 PM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

As some of you know the U.S. Army has basically based there combatives program on BJJ. I am currently working with my unit on it (as well as learning it).

Ground work is good, but I have learned a few things and formed a few opinions. Aikido is a principle based art for most part. Doesn't so much concern itself with situational based training. Our Army Combatives program (BJJ) tends to be highly situational in the beginning and it is that way for a reason. (won't waste digits going into it now).

I have gotten good at showing guys reasons why BJJ style submission fighting does not work for all situations, mainly in multiple opponent fighting. That said, it is good for police based situtations and minimal force stuff when you have one on one, or two on one with trying to control someone. (please note these comments are glaring generalities!)

Another observation, so far only one guy out of over 100 guys I have sparred with can beat me with my aikido, aikijutsu background..and he has studied BJJ for many years and is highly skilled. Take away the constraints of the "rules" and "paradigm" he works with and it tilts very favorably in my favor.

You really get on a slipperly slope when you start comparing arts, each one has it's merits and tends to work well within the parameters of it's philosophy/paradigm....removed from that environment things change and this is where we get confused...it is best to go at all arts with an open mind and look at them objectively and find the things in them that work for you!
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Old 11-18-2004, 03:50 PM   #27
Huker
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Kent:

Please keep in mind that I said "Aikijutsu" not "Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu". Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu was a style developed from the much older Aikijutsu, which was one of the primary fighting arts of the samurai--who disappeared long before the turn of the 19th century. Being developed for combatting multiple opponents, aikijutsu became an ideal battlefield martial art (a 'battlefield' being a location where two opposing generals would bring there army to do battle).

I say "greatest swordmen history has ever seen" with some historical backing as well. Samurai were well-known for their abilities with a sword. When oversea trade lanes were created in the western world, exploration became extremely important. Four of the biggest seafaring powers in the western world were the Dutch, the English, the Spanish, and the Portuguese. Once conflicts emerged, new routes had to be discovered and new people had to be found to trade with. Now, the Japanese liked their seclusion. For the most part, the only people they traded with were the Chinese, for their silk. When the western traders first started appearing in Japan, things didn't go so well. Many were pirates and gave all four groups a bad reputation. Also, westerners didn't have a very good appearance at the time (they were considered by the Japanese to be barbarians), being all dirty and what not, so many conflicts emerged. Once trade was established with Japan and western influence began to spread in Japanese culture, it was quickly learned that the Japanese had far superior swordsmanship skills than any western country, and also made far superior steel than any western country and the known eastern countries (Damascus was well known for its steel).

As far as the names of swordsmen go, I'm afraid you've got me. I don't know too many. Once again, keep in mind that I said "Aikijutsu", not "Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu".
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Old 11-18-2004, 10:41 PM   #28
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

T. Hukezalle's post is fascinating, bearing only one flaw - it is incorrect in almost every particular. Aikijutsu is really not that old a term - it was rather uncommon in use until the late Edo period. It was not a principal present in most schools of swordsmanship - and it definitely wasn't an "art" in itself. The vast majority of ryu not only didn't use the term, but many individuals would have no idea what was meant. In mid-Edo, it was used as a term to denote fitting together techniques (it's used this way in Toda-ha Buko-ryu) or as an interchangeable term for kiaijutsu (methods of psychologically affectings one's own and other's state of mind). It was not a principal of multiple attack and defense.

Secondly, the Japanese were not recognized as pre-eminent swordfighters. They were recognized as pre-eminent, using their weapons, in the context of Japanese style battles using Japanese style projectile weapons at long range and Japanese armor.

Third, the Europeans and the Chinese complained about Japanese pirates, not the other way around. The Wako were infamous as murderous, vicious pirates, much like the pirates in Indonesian waterways today (a friend of mine, who piloted super-tankers, told me that they all kept AK-47s at the ready in south-Asian waters).

Fourth, the Japanese did not like their "seclusion" until the 1600's. The big debate at the end of the 1500's, was whether to expand as a colonial power in the Philipines, or in the mainland. They traded as far as India. Hideyoshi made the grandiose mistake of invading Korea with inferior naval power, and illusions about the power of China. The Japanese forces were depleted and absorbed by a combination of Korean naval power and the Chinese army. They went into seclusion after being defeated - this, by the way after adopting European plate armour and musketry. (BTW- most letters by to Japan from Korea pleaded for guns and spears, not more swords).

Fifth, the Japanese sword is a wonderful example of metallugy. But it was not, even in earlier days, the most superior steel sword (log-on to SwordForum.com regarding this.). Equal, and in different aspects superior, were Wootz steel of India, Damascus steel, and the braided cable Viking swords.

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Old 11-18-2004, 11:56 PM   #29
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

It is too late for this...

I can't really argue how old aikijutsu is because I am not sure, but I am convinced that it predates the Edo period, which lasted from the mid-17th century to the 19th century sometime. Aikijutsu is based on Japanese sword- and spear-fighting styles. I also do not know what the art was called during, or before the Edo period, but I know that we now call it aikijutsu. If I have used the wrong name for the mother art of aikido, please keep in mind that this does not matter to my point: that the mother art of aikido was designed to combat multiple attackers.

I agree that the Japanese did have archers and that many battles were fought using archers, but the fact is that there were also swordsmen in those armies, as well as spearmen, etc... This predates the influence of guns, which appear in Japan the late 1500s/early 1600s. I beg to differ, but the Japanese were known for their swordsmanship. For a culture that committed their entire lives to perfecting their role in society, I highly doubt that their swordsmanship (an imporant skill of the warrior class) was anything to be scoffed at. On such a large scale, there was no discipline of this kind found in the western continents. With this in mind, it is unlikely that the swordsmanship skills of lets say, the English, were up to par with those of the Japanese.

About your third point, I think you're taking this out of historical context. I am talking about a time when exploration by westerners was still taking place. At this time, when Japan was first discovered by the west, the Japanese had mostly fishing boats. If I'm not mistaken, the Japanese had never seen a galley or a warship up until exposure to western culture. I'm sure the Wako are very fearsome, but with AK-47s, I'm almost positive that they (and their relations with the Chinese and the English) have nothing to do with Japanese swordsmen.

Yes, at one point they must have tried for the mainland. I am not disagreeing that the Japanese ever tried to take more land. I gave a brief chunk of history illustrating how the Japanese came to be known for their swordsmanship. I agree that the Japanese did trade with other countries, but I said for the most part China, not exclusively. About the letters--I don't understand the wording for your statement, could you please clarify it for me?

Katanas were very strong because they were made using folded steel. Whether or not this is unique to Japan, I don't know. I also am not sure whether or not Japanese steel was the strongest in the world at any points in its day, but I am sure that it was 'up there' in quality. Like I said, it has been implied that Damascus steel is of lesser quality than Japanese steel. To my knowledge, the semi-crystalline nature of wootz steel gives the blade a more abrasive texture, but this advantage is sacrificed since the steel itself is slightly more brittle because of it. Viking swords were more of a bludgeoning weapon than a cutting weapon. Their sheer size made them slow to wield. Katanas are shorter, lighter blades, so the tactical advantage alone would make them a superior weapon.

Well, it is almost 2:00am and I'm really tired, so I'm calling it quits. The only reason I'm up this late typing this is because I resent your comment about my last post being "incorrect in almost every particular". Not cool, sounds very arrogant.
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Old 11-19-2004, 12:42 AM   #30
bob_stra
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Chris (the original poster)

People are people, you know? They say and do things that re-affirm their self image / self worth. To that end, we are all a little blind. IOW - if I haven't seen kickass, 'whoomp' killer aikido - just the light, fluffy bunny stuff - then that's all I know. So my opinions become biased on what I "know". You dig?

BJJ is fabuloso on the ground. It gels nicely with Aikido.

If a BJJ guy can drag you down there, by and large, you are screwed.

*If* he can drag you down there.

Personally, the more BJJ I do (3yrs off and on, to date), the more I like to recommend folks to look into Judo as well. The takedown skills taught to many BJJ'ers are (to be honest) sub-par, whilst the ground fighting is overdeveloped to an extreme. Just IMHO and YMMV.

Mr Fooks -

Still grilling sacred cows, I see

How dare you say those things abt BJJ!?! Dare you incur the wrath that is Gichoke's army of atomic supermen! We're everywhere, you know...watching (ok, mostly watching porn, but still...)


Mr Roy Dean

You're one of the luckiest s.o.b's on earth to have Roy Harris as your instructor.

Is there any chance you could convince Mr Harris to let you perform some "aikido-into-bjj" on his (eventual?) BJJ201 v2 DVD? Even as an outtake, or blooper reel?
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Old 11-19-2004, 04:28 AM   #31
Aristeia
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:

Mr Fooks -

Still grilling sacred cows, I see
Mmmm....sacred burgers....
Quote:
How dare you say those things abt BJJ!?! Dare you incur the wrath that is Gichoke's army of atomic supermen! We're everywhere, you know...watching (ok, mostly watching porn, but still...)
Well Graps already sent the ninja's after me so I thought what the hey

Quote:

Is there any chance you could convince Mr Harris to let you perform some "aikido-into-bjj" on his (eventual?) BJJ201 v2 DVD?
Doesn't aikido get a mention during one of those ligh sparring bits on 101?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 11-19-2004, 08:42 AM   #32
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Well Graps already sent the ninja's after me so I thought what the hey

Ninjas...they'll kill ya five times before you hit the floor!

Doesn't aikido get a mention during one of those ligh sparring bits on 101?

Armbar tapes IIRC. The screen flashes AIKIDO!!!!! AIKIDO!!!! when Roy wristlocks. (you can almost hear the 'neener neener neeener)

Personally, I'm still quietly chuckling over the "never trust a magician who knows jujitsu / watch out for falling coins" bit.

Still...it would be nice to see "BJJ for Aikidoka". Believe it or not there's a "Judo throws for BJJ'ers" tape out there.
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Old 11-19-2004, 10:22 AM   #33
roninja
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Hmmm... I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but in Bjj, from the school I studied, and many other schools, it takes about 3-5 (or more) years to get a blue belt, which, in many arts, equals a 2nd or third degree black belt.
As for me I have studied both Aikido and Brazilian Jiu jutsu and I find that my Bjj is far more applicable when I spar, but then again, you have to ask yourself, why is an aikidoka sparring? catching on? I think the frist reply also touched on this. But I remember when i studied brazilian Jiu jutsu there was a guy in there who had studied aikido previously and the guys suwari waza was so good, no matter what I did, I just couldn't keep my grip on this guy.
As for the group of people that I study aikido with (this includes me), I'd say that a bjj player would take the match anyday, supposing that we were only using aikido. I've seen what kind of junk we try to pull of in Randori.
But trying to discredit another art based on the merit of your own art is a bit of bad thing to do. Of course brazilian jiu jutsu may prevail in most confrontations, but have you seen the way that most bjj players get to the ground? the fall straight down or do wrestling style take downs, which hurt a lot more on the street than in the dojo. So why not practice an art that accells in throwing techniques as well? such as judo or aikido.
I know stories were not asked for, but I'm long winded. Take the story of Kimura (the only guy to beat Helio Gracie, thus giving the name to the technique "Kimura", I'm assuming) and Helio Gracie (founder of Bjj). The story has it that Kimura threw gracie relentlessly, and so did the other judo contestants before Kimura (though the other contestants were beaten with ease on the ground).
But if you take the smart side of the thinking of a fight, why would you drag a fight out if you can end it with a throw and get the hell out of there?
But that's why, and I think this would go for many, Aikido and Bjj serve two different purposes for one's life.
I don't study Aikido to know how to "fight" and I don't study Brazilian Jiu jutsu to gain a sense of peace and harmony.
So I'll end with the fact that I have great respect for both arts, those people who really accell in them, and those who don't.
I think that in the end, those who practice the martial arts with all their heart will reach the same destination, despite the style
Tsunezune no
Waza no keiko ni
Kokoro Seiyo
Hitotsu O motte
Yorozu ni ataru zo
Shugyousha no michi

Last edited by roninja : 11-19-2004 at 10:26 AM.

僕わ Joseph Dunkin
"Compassion is pure kindness
Wisdom is knowing the truth of dependent origin"
- Ven. Hsing Yun
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Old 11-19-2004, 11:42 AM   #34
rachel
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
I made it very clear to him from the very beginning that should I take BJJ, that I would still remain in Aikido as well. He was very polite but he kind of disappointed me when he said like most arts that it really wasn't very effective from a realistic stand point.
I've been studying Aikido for many years. Within the last year, I have been trying other arts to compliment my Aikido training. I tried some BJJ, Judo, Kendo, Karate, and other things. I have to point out however, that BJJ is not a martial art, it is a sport, and it's goal is not self defense, it is submission. I encourage you to try other arts, but any instructor who tells you that what you are studying is not valid, is not a very good instructor. You should never study under anyone who doesn't believe that the more you learn, the better you will become. Try other arts, but never give up Aikido.
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Old 11-19-2004, 12:06 PM   #35
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Rachel Klein wrote: -

have to point out however, that BJJ is not a martial art, it is a sport, and it's goal is not self defense, it is submission.

Respectfully, I must disagree with that.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/street.htm
http://www.straightblastgym.com/street01.htm
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Old 11-19-2004, 12:34 PM   #36
paw
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Rachel Klein wrote:
I have to point out however, that BJJ is not a martial art, it is a sport, and it's goal is not self defense, it is submission.
Rubish.

It is the basis for the US Army's modern combative training, and that was previously mentioned in this thread. It is taught to law enforcement agencies world wide.

It is most certainly a martial art.

The only thing I can think of is you may have encountered a school that only teaches the sporting aspect of bjj.


Regards,

Paul
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:44 PM   #37
Aristeia
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Rachel Klein wrote:
any instructor who tells you that what you are studying is not valid, is not a very good instructor. .
I'm not sure I even buy this.I mean is someone comes to me and tells me that they're also learning yoga for self defence I'd probably raise some questions. The issue here in my mind is the basis on which he challenged aikido.
"We can beat them up so their art is useless" is just not a valid argument.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:46 PM   #38
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:

Still...it would be nice to see "BJJ for Aikidoka". Believe it or not there's a "Judo throws for BJJ'ers" tape out there.
You're not wrong. Hmmm...*looks at camcorder on the desk*, *looks at mats in the garage* hmmm....all I need is...oh yeah, some actual skill in BJJ. bugger.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 11-19-2004, 03:21 PM   #39
Kent Enfield
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
a lot of good stuff
Now I'm glad that the computer ate the post I tried to make yesterday. Mr. Amdur came along and did it better, naturally.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 11-19-2004, 06:07 PM   #40
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

To T. Hukezalle - I don't want to hijack the thread, so if there needs to be further discussion, best to start a new one. Sorry about the syntax on one point - (BTW- most letters by Japanese generals from Korea pleaded for guns and spears, not more swords). The samurai "arts" - many of them still exist. I'm a licensed instructor in two koryu and I've view many times, and had frequent consultation with many of the headmasters of the remaining ryu. Aikijutsu never meant multiple attack defenses. It was NOT - never was - a separate art, before Daito-ryu. Yes, there is training in multiple attack fighting, encased in the two person kata. But the claim that the Japanese were better than the English (per your example) or more systematically trained, is also historically incorrect. Early fencing manuals, including the Germanic broadsword texts have both practical and esoteric training, and look so similar to Japanese methods that one might imagine there were cross-overs. The claim that Japanese were regarded as pre-eminent among swordsmen is just that - a claim without historical basis in fact. You are also incorrect in referring to the Viking sword as a bludgeon. The average weight was close to three pounds, only 1/2 to 3/4 pound more than a war katana. They also used methods of folding steel.
Finally, I do not see it as "arrogant" to contradict error. What you wrote does not conform to the facts of history. Again, if this should continue, lets make another thread. This one's supposed to be about BJJ vs. Aikido.

Best

Ellis Amdur

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Old 11-19-2004, 10:04 PM   #41
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
You're not wrong. Hmmm...*looks at camcorder on the desk*, *looks at mats in the garage* hmmm....

Yeah....I was trying for 'subtle' / jedi mind trick.

'These are not your droids'.
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Old 11-20-2004, 12:14 AM   #42
rachel
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Rubbish.
and
Quote:
Respectfully, I must disagree with that.
Just because it may be a good form of self defense, that does not make something a martial art. I don't think that BJJ is bad, I just think that it lacks many elements of training that are found in what I am referring to as 'martial arts'. And actually, the school of BJJ that I encountered is run a very well known instructor, so I think that I got a fairly good impression of how BJJ really is.
Quote:
I'm not sure I even buy this.I mean is someone comes to me and tells me that they're also learning yoga for self defense I'd probably raise some questions.
I think that you misunderstand my entire point. Firstly (going with your example) whether you are studying yoga for self defense or another reason, a good instructor should not tell you to stop taking yoga so that you can learn what they will teach. Secondly, yoga does improve self defense skills. Mostly any kind of exercise and movement training will help to improve your Aikido or whatever other style of self defense or martial art that you practice. For example, about 4-5 years ago, I began studying ballet. My Aikido has improved very quickly and steadily from that time. Whether you believe me or not, it's true.
Also, I'd like to tell you about an Aikido student I once knew. He studied Aikido for many years from childhood and was ikkyu when he reached high school. He joined the wrestling team at his school. The wrestling coach told him that if he wanted to wrestle, he had to quit Aikido, so he did. It's a shame because he was very skilled and natural at Aikido. He is likely lost to Aikido forever, but he had so much potential to be a great Aikidoka.
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Old 11-20-2004, 05:10 AM   #43
bob_stra
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Rachel Klein wrote:
and
Just because it may be a good form of self defense, that does not make something a martial art. I don't think that BJJ is bad, I just think that it lacks many elements of training that are found in what I am referring to as 'martial arts'. And actually, the school of BJJ that I encountered is run a very well known instructor, so I think that I got a fairly good impression of how BJJ really is.
Again I must respectfully disagree.

You are aware that there are "sub styles" / flavours of BJJ beyond the "pyjama clad, slugs fornicating" one sees in some academies?

Just this week I did "Vale Tudo flavour" - we kicked each other, we punched each other, went to the ground, he took me to guard so I stabbed him in the stomach (rubber knife, of course!) and then went to break his foot.

AFAIK - this kind of training is becoming more common. Even in some sports based / gi schools it is offered as an occasional 'elective'.

In any case -with regards to 'sports style' BJJ - we are 100% in agreement.
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Old 11-20-2004, 05:28 AM   #44
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Rachel Klein wrote:
and
Just because it may be a good form of self defense, that does not make something a martial art.
You'll have to define "martial art", because I'm confused how an art taught for use in military combat, law enforcement, civilian self-defense and various sportive contexts isn't a martial art, while aikido which isn't taught to nearly as broad a group somehow is.

Quote:
Mostly any kind of exercise and movement training will help to improve your Aikido or whatever other style of self defense or martial art that you practice.
If your argument is that improving athleticism improves self defense, you might have a point, although such an argument doesn't address sport specific functionality nor does it address different energy pathways and muscle fiber use.

For example, it has been demonstrated that aerobic training reduces potential anaerobic power over time because of the nature of muscle fiber, while the reverse is not true. Thus, if "self defense" requires explosive power training engaging in chronic aerobic training would actually decrease someone's self defense potential.

While nearly any exercise is better than nothing at all, exercise and fitness modes are not necessarily complementary.


Regards,

Paul
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Old 11-20-2004, 06:29 AM   #45
Michael Young
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Ok, it is six O'clock on Saturday morning and I couldn't sleep...I woke up, tried to get back in bed, couldn't sleep, and for some reason this post started going through my head. So, you'll have to forgive me if it is a little bit fuzzy or even slightly rude to a point. We are constantly seeing posts like this on Aiki-web, and other forums...posts questioning the efficiency of Aikido and it's martial effectiveness... and they usually devolve into a diatribe over what is and isn't good about Aikido, why it is or isn't an effective martial art, etc. Just do a quick browse through the general forum and you find plenty of examples. Generally I will hear the (forgive me if this sounds rude) lame "I don't take Aikido to learn how to defend myself" excuse, or the "Aikido is not designed as a fighting art". excuse: i.e.
" No one chooses to train Aikido because it is the best most bad ass fighting style in the world. It's not designed to be that way. It's designed to achieve other goals be they physical or spiritual"

The funny thing is the first statement is usually not the case for why most people start taking Aikido, at least in my general experience. I think most people still walk into Aikido dojo's with the intent of learning a self-defense form, but if they stick with it later evolve to something else. The second statement is true from a certain POV, it would probably be more true to say "Aikido is not designed ONLY as a fighting art"...I think Aikido is definitely designed to deal with fighting though and not just deal with "other goals", but not by dealing with fighting on a fighting level. It transcends fighting. I think I'm getting off on a tangent though because what I really want to address is why I think Aikido is the pinnacle art (uh-oh, I think I'm about to get a firestorm of criticism for that statement), let me state why.

Siritual, etc. practice aside, and addressing the purely martial appplication of Aikido: I believe Aikido can legitimately "defeat" any other martial art out there (another statement I'm going to get slammed for)... if YOU can not do it, it is because YOUR Aikido has not reached that level yet. If you cannot "defeat" the technique of a boxer, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you cannot deal with the kicks and punches of Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Tae Kwan Do, Kung Fu, Hapkido, etc., it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you open yourself enough to allow a BJJ'er, Greco Roman Wrestler, Judoka, etc. to take you to the ground, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you get cut by the guy trying to kill you with the knife, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you are standing there when the guy whips out the gun to shoot, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient.

Aikido has practical, sound, applicable principles, arrived at through the correct application of years of study, to deal with all of the above situations and more. If there is a deficiency in Aikido, it is its complexity and the many years of practice needed, before the level of proficiency required to deal the above situations occurs ( Another deficiency may be whom you practice under and what training methods you follow..but that is for a whole other inflammatory debate ). You can (and should) go out and cross train in other MA's (I have), but if you are really looking for it, you will find that Aikido is all encompassing and can deal with all of them. Please note, I am not arguing the effectiveness or legitimacy of other MA's, just Aikido's.

Let the slamming begin

Mike
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Old 11-20-2004, 08:47 AM   #46
L. Camejo
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
paul watt wrote:
You'll have to define "martial art", because I'm confused how an art taught for use in military combat, law enforcement, civilian self-defense and various sportive contexts isn't a martial art, while aikido which isn't taught to nearly as broad a group somehow is.
Hi Paul,

Just a quick point.

Aikido is actually applied in all the forums you indicated above. Some web links are offered below.

Military Combat & Law Enforcement - http://www.tacticalapplications.com/history.htm , http://www.aikieast.com/deftacop.html

Civilian Self Defence - http://www.aikieast.com/deftacop.html

Sportive Contexts - http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi1.html

The rest of your post I mostly agree with.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 11-20-2004, 09:05 AM   #47
Hagen Seibert
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

[quote=Michael Young]If you cannot "defeat" the technique of a boxer, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you cannot deal with the kicks and punches of Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Tae Kwan Do, Kung Fu, Hapkido, etc., it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you open yourself enough to allow a BJJ'er, Greco Roman Wrestler, Judoka, etc. to take you to the ground, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you get cut by the guy trying to kill you with the knife, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient. If you are standing there when the guy whips out the gun to shoot, it is because YOUR Aikido is deficient.


Right. Though: In your own accounting of situations you will quickly reach a point where NO-ONES Aikido does work. Itīs too easy to just blame the student, and too naive to assume that Aikido can do everything.

Nice to see Ellis Amdur participating in this thread, there is a chapter in his wonderful book "Duelling with OSensei" , the chapter is named "How tough do you want to be when you grow up" basically adressing the subject, worth reading !

regards
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Old 11-20-2004, 10:17 AM   #48
Michael Young
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Hi Mr. Siebert,

I didn't mean to imply that I was blaming someone if they aren't advanced enough to deal with everything...I'm certainly not. Perhaps my choice of language could have been better, but in my defense, it was 6:00am this morning when I wrote it . I'm not sure there is anyone on the planet that COULD deal with everything, we are human we make errors. But the error is not in the principles or techniques of the art itself, they are in the application. My point is that the limitation lies in human beings, not the art. This is true of any MA. Also let me say, if you deal with a Boxer on a Boxer's level, or a Judoka on the ground, etc...no, Aikido techniques probably could not deal with it...however, if an Aikidoka lets it get to that point, they have already failed to apply the principles.
It always seems as if we look at things "bass ackwards" on this forum, in particular, and others. Whenever someone brings up a specific MA, there are a torrent of comments dealing with how Aikido just can't deal with it. I am constantly seeing posts like "How to deal with a boxer's Jab? They are just too fast!" or "What happens when you are taken down by some 250lb BJJ''er?, you'll never be able to deliver atemi or apply nikkyo its all over for you!" etc. etc. There is truth to statments like these, in that I would have to agree that the Aikidoka would more than likely "lose" to a well trained practitioner in any number of MA's when working inside that MA's particular speciality. But let's turn it around for a moment...what is Aikido's "speciality"...controling the outcome of a confrontation from the very first instant, "before it even begins" (katsu hayabi) by complete awareness and connection, then blending with the energy of an attacker (musubi), control the attacker's center and apply whatever technique is applicable while maintainig the connection and control. If just those principles themselves are adhered to then nothing else beats it, does it? A boxer is intent on hitting you, a wrestler on taking you to the ground, a person with a knife wants to cut you, the TKD guys wants to strike...There is a closing of the mind there already...Aikido has none of those things and all of them all at the same time...the intent is not to "do" anything but what is appropriate at the right moment in time. How is this defeatable when applied correctly, what other MA could beat it? There is no technique or principle or art that could, other than to not attack in the first place. The MA of menoconfrontju
I'm not naive, like I said I know there may not be a person on the planet who can maintain that awareness and skill level 100% of the time...but that fault lies with the individual not the art. I think too often though, people close their mind to what Aikido is, I'm not just refering to the spiritual and philosophical side of it (although those are completely interconnected with the martial side). The tendency is to think that martialy, Aikido is a collection of techniques, not as all encompassing principles. When viewed as a collection of techniques practiced over and over, then yes, it is a complete joke of a MA that has no real world application and is utterly defeatable by a one year boxing student. The techniques are defeatable, the principles are not though.

Thanks for the reply,

Mike

BTW, I completely agree with you on seeing Mr. Amdur post, it is nice to see someone of his experience giving opinion.
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Old 11-20-2004, 04:38 PM   #49
paw
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Hi Paul,

Just a quick point.

Aikido is actually applied in all the forums you indicated above. Some web links are offered below.

Military Combat & Law Enforcement - http://www.tacticalapplications.com/history.htm , http://www.aikieast.com/deftacop.html
Hello Larry.

Let me be more clear. While I believe that aikido can be taught in such a way as to have military and combative applications, to the best of my knowledge aikido has not been taught en masse to all soldiers of a branch of military service. Other arts however, have been. Krav Maga, BJJ and SOMBO, for example.

I'm aware that aikido was taught to a group of select soldiers (and really, what art hasn't been taught to a select group of soldiers?) and that this was documented in Richard Strozzi Heckler's book, unless I'm mistaken it has never been the "official" or "standard" hand to hand combative core of any military.


Regards,

Paul
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Old 11-20-2004, 06:12 PM   #50
L. Camejo
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Cool Paul, I understand your point now. I perfectly agree.

Isn't clarification a great thing?

LC

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