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Old 12-24-2003, 01:33 PM   #26
Erik
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Ron, you beat me to it, right down to the friendship tapes, and, you were much more tactful than I'd have been.

I think it's time to power down and enjoy the holiday.
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Old 12-24-2003, 02:39 PM   #27
NagaBaba
 
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If somebody expect a respect only bcs he is reverend or 6th dan or monk --- it is taking watery moon for heavenly moon. Pure illusion. But some folks can't live without illusions. Nothing can be done with them.

To gain a respect it is very hard labour. Takes also long time.

Another illusion it is a BB without conflicts. If conflicts don't existe, harmony can't existe either. BB without conflicts is artificial concept and honest aikidoka can't write on such forum if he wants to preserve his integrity.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 12-24-2003, 03:42 PM   #28
indomaresa
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I was planning to enjoy my vacation here quietly in china, but I guess I've already fired a salvo, so...
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
If they have a gripe, why don't they come right out and say it? Why don't they approach your comments as if you at least are trying to be honest, and address their disbelief of your intent in a forthright manner?
I did address my disbelief in a fortright manner, you'll notice I use my real name. And why ask don? You seem to be conversing with him instead. You're making feel ignored here. Yuuhuu, Ron. I'm over here.
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I believe that post goes right to the heart of the problem here. A severe lack of directness, a need to be overly clever, and a FALSE RESPECT FOR AUTHORITY (anyone who has done any debating knows that this is NOT a valid tactic).

I get as bad as anyone here from time to time, and for that I appologize. But really folks...if you set yourself up as an authority, and then are not carefull to frame your words with accuracy, you will be called on it.
I AM clever. And btw, I never plan to do any debating. Valid tactic? what on earth are you talking about? Who's at war?
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
AS to Don's qualifications to object when facts are in issue, I can assure you he does not need to appeal to the likes of me. His words, for those who care to really read them, stand pretty much on their own. He deserves as much respect as anyone else here...someone who supposes they are capable of 'rendering' his words for him, should check out some of the friendship demonstration tapes...Don has been around these parts longer than most of us, and in better company too.
? I respect Don with AS MUCH RESPECT he showed others in this forum. Plus I did read his words, hence the translation. Someone who can create such a convoluted way to write an insincere "i'm sorry" demands the entire world's academic respect and standing ovation. (standing up and clapping with tears streaming down me eyes)

Your quoted last line there also shows your "false respect for authority". Haven't we established that entering this forum means leaving your ego and credentials behind? ( did you read Jason Breitzman's post? a very insightful and visual example of what the internet forum is )

Basically, Mr. Boswell have brought up what I've been dying to say all along. All forums have rules, and aikiweb has only one. But it' being broken nonetheless.

Jun-san's reiteration of the rules on the thread "forum credibility" is a good one. Everyone should read it. Again and again. You too Ron.

No hard feelings eh? Happy holidays all

Last edited by indomaresa : 12-24-2003 at 03:48 PM.

The road is long...
The path is steep...
So hire a guide to show you the shortcuts
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Old 12-24-2003, 03:53 PM   #29
Thalib
 
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Wow... You're awake early, Maresa. It's 0545. I'm surprised, you're never awake this early. You're never awake at all... hehehehh... just jokin.

Not coming to Maresa's defense, I also see the "apology post" as being insincere. Maybe I'm wrong about this, that's why I haven't said anything about it. The post is like saying, "I am still right, but since all of you are giving so much beef about it, I'll give in and apologize."

Hope I'm wrong about this...

Merry Christmas everyone and have a happy new year.

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
--------
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Old 12-24-2003, 05:43 PM   #30
shihonage
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Quote:
Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
I AM clever.
I for one think your little dissection was funny.

Or, as Don would probably put it,
Quote:
It does not stand against what happens to be the opinion of the one writing this sentence at this very moment, that despite the unseemly, if not outrageous and bordering on offensive conduct exercised by the above assembled in their colloquy, the intent and content expressed by their neanderthal brains does somehow almost appear to be endearingly amusing, not dissimilarly from such a thing as a child playing in a schoolyard with his or her schoolmates, unaware of how their actions affect the emotional state of the mature developed adults around them, and how much years and thousands of dollars in therapy of damage they have inflicted, uberknownst to them, on the core of my very being.

P.S. I like pie.

If you're interested in pie, please consider going to

http://www.pierecipe.com/

http://www.gourmed.gr/greek-recipes/...id=1&nodeid=45

http://www.freerecipe.org/Dessert/Baked_Goods/Pies/
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Old 12-25-2003, 01:12 PM   #31
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
I AM clever
I'm glad you think so...others may not be as sure.
Quote:
I respect Don with AS MUCH RESPECT he showed others in this forum.
No, you don't. Don (and others) did not **interpret** someone else's words. He saw a factual error, and spoke to that error. YOU on the other hand, played a different game. I'm done with this topic now, and with you.

Just the same, Happy Holidays, and probably see y'all in the New Year!

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 12-27-2003, 08:17 PM   #32
Neil Mick
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Wink

Wouldn't you guys rather argue it out over on the Iraqi thread? It's getting kind of slow over there...

After all: politics leads to sniping WAAY better than stuffy old topics like respect.
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:11 AM   #33
ikkainogakusei
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Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Wouldn't you guys rather argue it out over on the Iraqi thread? It's getting kind of slow over there...

After all: politics leads to sniping WAAY better than stuffy old topics like respect.
Neil you're silly. If you'd like, I'll feign an attack in the Iraqi War thread, but only if you go easy on me. I'm fragile

Jane

"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:17 AM   #34
ikkainogakusei
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Talking onegaishimasu

Oh, wait...can I start out with the old SNL 'Point Counterpoint' line..."{Neil} you ignorant slut!" <- see that's me asking 'onegaishimasu' for verbal randori, maybe if Neil and I are in agreement, it won't be lame for one of us.

"To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society." ~Theodore Roosevelt
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:08 PM   #35
John Boswell
 
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Well, after much reading, re-reading and re-reading again... I have a question for Don M. and that is:

From what I can gather of what you said, you question(ed) Sensei Furuya's comments and possibly his creditials. Though some are in the world worthy of questioning... why him? In what way did he seem questionable to you?

This whole thread has definitly headed south, much to my dismay. Jun has obviously moved it and that is his peragotive, but it seems like things are getting personal when they shouldn't be.

Honestly, I'm not questioning YOUR right to question... but only asking why. Sensei Furuya's rank is varifiable, his study of Zen (imho) is undeniable, he's been on nationally televised shows and is well known in the MA community. Is there something we don't know that you DO know that would lead to a questioning of him? Besides all that... when I read his posts, he was just giving information based on his own study. It was not intended as opinion as right or wrong.

Sheesh... why do I feel like I'm setting myself up for a fall? Oh well... here I am.

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Old 12-29-2003, 02:02 PM   #36
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
I have a question for Don M.

From what I can gather of what you said, you question(ed) Sensei Furuya's comments and possibly his creditials. Though some are in the world worthy of questioning... why him? In what way did he seem questionable to you?

....

Honestly, I'm not questioning YOUR right to question... but only asking why. Sensei Furuya's rank is varifiable, his study of Zen (imho) is undeniable, he's been on nationally televised shows and is well known in the MA community. Is there something we don't know that you DO know that would lead to a questioning of him? Besides all that... when I read his posts, he was just giving information based on his own study. It was not intended as opinion as right or wrong.
I didn't question his credentials. (Although I would be curious as to where he studied Zen after reading Fred Little's post and an article by Robert Sharf at http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/...rs/pdf/456.pdf. )

"Why him?"--Wrong question. It wasn't about him. It was about his "facts".

Regardless of credentials or standing in the MA community, if he's wrong, he's wrong. He refused to engage on the point when I cited learned arguments (see http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...?threadid=4749).

In all fairness, though, the man claims credentials in aikido, iai, and zen, not history.

"Is there something we don't know that you DO know...?" No, distressing, that. Everyone could see that when challenged on points of facts, he refused to engage other than to scold the questioner to do his homework. That's a warning flag for all of us, not just me. Read Goldsbury, Little, Ledyard, Bodiford, any journal maintaining standards of academic rigor--you'll find no hesitation in citing references.

What's wrong with this picture?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 12-29-2003, 02:26 PM   #37
Neil Mick
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Talking Re: oh my gaishimas

Quote:
Jane Tao (ikkainogakusei) wrote:
Neil you're silly. If you'd like, I'll feign an attack in the Iraqi War thread, but only if you go easy on me. I'm fragile
"Silly?" Au contraire, "Jane!" Politics is serious stuff! It got Jaime and me kicked off the aikidojournal forum: you KNOW you're doing something right when the moderator "shuns" you, from the online community, for bringing up "difficult discussion topics!"

And--you? "Fragile??" Not the Jane I know!
Quote:
Jane Tao (ikkainogakusei) wrote:
Neil} you ignorant slut!" <- see that's me asking 'onegaishimasu' for verbal randori, maybe if Neil and I are in agreement, it won't be lame for one of us.
NOW you're getting into the spirit!! You can't be truly sincere in your beliefs without a little invective to the "other side," I always say! It shows the reader that you "mean business!"
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Old 12-29-2003, 03:52 PM   #38
John Boswell
 
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Okay. Against my better judgement, I'm going to put my finger on what it is that's bothering me... put words to it, and then let the chips fall where they may.

And in my own defense, I hesitate to say anything to you, Don, because Sensei Riggs (my instructor) has spoken of you in high regard. But...

"What's wrong with this picture?"

Sensei Furuya, if nothing else, is polite and respectful in his comments here on the boards.

Aikido is the "Way of Harmony" or some variation thereof. Why do comments have to get nasty or aburupt? I have read many posts by Ledyard, Clark, Goldsbury and I agree with them almost always. But whether I agreed with them or not, I have NEVER heard any of them go at someone in the way you did here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...?threadid=4749

"Iz you iz or iz you ain't?" Would you take that from me... regardless of my rank or educational background?

There is a way to be right. There is also just plain manners and respect for each other. Facts should be challenged but that can be done while keeping one's cool.

It's probably a pipe dream of mine that the web can someday work in an orderly fashion. That manners and respect would walk hand in hand with good debate. In the meantime, I'll do my best to live up to the standard I hold others to in the hope that I'm not coming across as arrogant or egotistical... or just plain wrong.

AND... if it makes you feel any better, I truly was never even addressing you with this thread in the first place. I was attacking the asinine idiot(s) telling my sensei that "smoking is no big deal" over on the smoking thread... when we all know the ill effects of it. THOSE kind of people need to be taken down a notch, imho.

Anywhoo... best wishes for your New Year, Mr. M! Wish that "I" was in Florida...

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Old 12-29-2003, 04:54 PM   #39
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
Sensei Furuya, if nothing else, is polite and respectful in his comments here on the boards.
Perhaps superficially. Although obsequious in exectution, Mr. F was also quick to insinuate about the personal character and lives of anyone who dared to question or challenge him. Your interpretation of the exchange is positively Orwellian.

I suggest you would get more out of the discussions by paying attention to the actual content of what was being said, rather than just the form. It looks as though you reduce any disagreement to "A is saying something mean to B, and he didn't say please and thank you".

In my book, talking straight to someone, holding them accountable for their factual claims, and their behavior in the discussion shows more respect than any amount of disclaimers, niceties, compliments or apologia.

It seems you have two projects here: one, to make an emotional plea for acceptance of arguments from authority, and two, to attempt to enforce a narrow, syrupy style of communication in people's posts. I can't go along with either.
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Old 12-29-2003, 06:02 PM   #40
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
Sensei Riggs (my instructor) has spoken of you in high regard.

DJM: By all means, please extend him my YOROSHIKU.

"What's wrong with this picture?"

Sensei Furuya, if nothing else, is polite and respectful in his comments here on the boards.

DJM: As did Mr. Wilbanks, I found contradictions in Mr. Furuya's courtesies and how he treated people.

Aikido is the "Way of Harmony" or some variation thereof. Why do comments have to get nasty or aburupt? I have read many posts by Ledyard, Clark, Goldsbury and I agree with them almost always. But whether I agreed with them or not, I have NEVER heard any of them go at someone in the way you did

DJM: I addressed that above.

here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...?threadid=4749

"Iz you iz or iz you ain't?" Would you take that from me... regardless of my rank or educational background?

DJM: Yup. No problem. The "you" doesn't refer to a person here. I'm using it loosely to define the issue, not challenge Mr. Young. Sequence:

DJM: Mr. F offers the traditional connection--which is to say, a whole body of reference--between Zen an MAs.

DJM: Several question this, including myself.

DJM: Mr. Young says I'm reading too much into Mr. F's comments.

DJM: I post the Zen/MA thread.

DJM: Now Mr. F could as well, indeed more accurately, have said Mikkyo or Kannagara as Zen. That he said Zen invokes a whole discourse and history of the connection. It says more than his words themselves did.

DJM: (Btw, I'm somewhat taken aback that anyone would find the "Iz" you stuff offensive. I remember it from a charming song and dance routine, Louis Armstrong, wasn't it? Maybe that's why I didn't have a problem with it; how could anyone have a problem with Satchmo's smile? )

AND... if it makes you feel any better, I truly was never even addressing you with this thread in the first place.

DJM: Thank you for your concern. Actually, I posted here because all the other pertinent threads seemed to have been abandoned.

I was attacking the asinine idiot(s) telling my sensei that "smoking is no big deal"

DJM: Ha! Wouldn't have guessed it.

Anywhoo... best wishes for your New Year, Mr. M! Wish that "I" was in Florida...

DJM: Best wishes back. Train hard and have a safe holiday.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
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Old 12-29-2003, 09:35 PM   #41
PeterR
 
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Hi Don;

You need to learn how to cut and paste those quotation comands.

I've already commented on the source of this thread but I would like to add that it seems that RESPECT has become polarized. Some demand respect from the beginning and others expect you to earn it. What gets lost in the middle is common courtesy and many times I've noticed the two polar extremes tend to forget that.

There are several people who never seem to get flamed even if they show their annoyance at us lesser mortals. They never forget.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-30-2003, 08:52 AM   #42
SeiserL
 
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IMHO, if we focus on our own respectfullness, we can develop some compassion for those of us who are still working on it.

Don't allow others to take your balance (respect). Learn to enter, blend, and redirect with all levels and stages of learning on and off the dojo mats. I find other's opinions and presentation an excellent source of learning and practice.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 12-30-2003, 11:54 AM   #43
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Hi Don;

You need to learn how to cut and paste those quotation comands.(1)

I've already commented on the source of this thread (2)
1) I used to use this system, but rereading one of my own posts once, I found it tedious scrolling back and forth, thus the "DJM:" system. Kind of narrow paragraphs for you,are they?

2) Sorry, Peter,. I searched for your name earlier in the thread and couldn't find it. Where did you comment? Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 12-30-2003, 07:26 PM   #44
Peter Goldsbury
 
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This is a topic of interest to me because it is virtually never discussed in Japan. Elders of course complain that the young treat them with diminishing respect and the young complain that they also are entitled to a measure of respect from their elders. The concept has two aspects: respect for what you are as a human being and respect for what you do with what you are. Another way of putting this would be to think of respect for your basic personhood and for the positive or negative qualities that you bring to this basic personhood.

In Japan, where society is thought to be imbued with Confucian ideals, the elderly are given respect simply because of their personhood: their advanced age and the experience that they are supposed to have acquired. Those with status, the people addressed as Sensei, are also given respect, including politicians whose reputation for political and moral corruption is well known and equally well deserved. People here are also very good at displaying tatemae or kata: here understood as the outward or omote aspect of social interaction. The honne or ura aspects, what people really feel, are supposed to be kept firmly hidden, but there is a tendency, especially among the young, who have been more exposed than their elders to foreign influences, that this is somehow dishonest. Thus the young have good reason for some of their complaints. I suspect\without any grounds other than living there for two years and the basic reading I have done\that in a society like the US respect is more firmly based on what you do with your life than on what the Good Lord has given you. Going out and making good seems more deserving of praise than simply accepting with as good grace as possible the role that society has assigned you.

This topic also of great interest to me because I am an official of a large international aikido federation. As a federation it is grounded on the general principle of equality of members. Congresses, where people come together to do some intensive aikido training and also to meet and discuss issues of common interest (such as sex discrimination and violence in the dojo), are held only once every four years, but on these occasions there are certain ground rules that have to be accepted.

One is that all delegates represent their organizations and as such have equal status, rights and obligations, even when a delegate happens to be an 8th dan aikido shihan. Thus the shihan may not use his shihan status to browbeat or bully a delegate who happens to be a 5th kyu.

Another rule is that discussions, decisions at the congress are all done under the general direction of the Chair. This means that occasionally the Chair has to ensure that the rules of order are followed\by everybody.

In this situation, for me the question of respect does not arise. If someone breaks the ground rules, whether shihan or shokyu, this must be corrected. However, for some delegates the question of respect is a major issue. Here is someone, sent by the organization and representing organizationfs interests, who is in serious disagreement with another delegate who just happens to be a shihan, possibly connected in a teacher-student relationship with the first delegatefs own teacher. What do the delegate do? Should he keep quiet during the congress sessions, or speak out? How should he vote on an issue like dojo violence, if the sensei is known to be eroughf?

Sometimes the discussion becomes very heated and two episodes stand out at IAF congresses I first attended as a delegate. One is of an IAF official picking up a chair to throw at a delegate who refused to keep quiet. Another is of a delegate who walked over to another delegate whose manner he disliked and grabbed him by the collar. The offending official and delegate were both Japanese aikido shihan.

Thus, my reaction to Mr Boswellfs initial post was mixed, to say the least. Perhaps it is true that in the aikido world in general due respect is being lost. On the other hand, in my experience aikido meetings like IAF congresses are generally better conducted than they were. The focus is now much more firmly placed on training and there is virtually no bullying based on rank during congress sessions. Given that aikido can be understood in general as the enlightened resolution of conflicts, an aikido Internet discussion forum is much more like an aikido meeting than training in the dojo, in the sense that participants are like delegates, who have an equal right to express their views and be listened to / read. The shihan and the shokyu are equal in this very basic sense. I think the real issue is not whether, but how you disagree and I think that here we are in agreement. Nevertheless, my own experience has been that shihan sometimes do not bring to the resolution of conflict off the tatami the wisdom that should have been gained on it.

Apologies for the length of this post and a Happy New Year to Everybody.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
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Old 12-30-2003, 09:30 PM   #45
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
1) I used to use this system, but rereading one of my own posts once, I found it tedious scrolling back and forth, thus the "DJM:" system. Kind of narrow paragraphs for you,are they?
I meant this system. I have the same advice for Peter G. It's just a matter of copying and altering the quote command as necessary. I suggest it because often I read only the comments to see if something new has been said and go back to the quote if it isn't clear.
Quote:
2) Sorry, Peter,. I searched for your name earlier in the thread and couldn't find it. Where did you comment? Thanks.
It was in the This Forum Just Lost Credability it had Left. thread in the Feedback section. Different thread same topic. No matter - it wasn't that deep meaningful or profound.

Cheers and by the way I actually don't understand why you are getting that much flack. I would just let it die.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-31-2003, 01:19 AM   #46
Peter Goldsbury
 
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
I meant this system. I have the same advice for Peter G.
Ohh? Have my columns been too narrow recently as well? Usually, when I want to respond to a lengthy post with direct quotes, I copy the whole thing on to a Word file and then can cut, paste and edit as I wish, at leisure. My last long post sat in a Word folder for several days before I finished it this morning.

All the best to you, your wife and daughter for 2004.

P A Goldsbury
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Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
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Old 12-31-2003, 02:03 AM   #47
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
Ohh? Have my columns been too narrow recently as well? Usually, when I want to respond to a lengthy post with direct quotes, I copy the whole thing on to a Word file and then can cut, paste and edit as I wish, at leisure. My last long post sat in a Word folder for several days before I finished it this morning.
Now I'm embarassed - a quick scan of your latest endeavors shows no problem. Memories. Don take note - it is only you.
Quote:
All the best to you, your wife and daughter for 2004.
I was trying to talk them into going to Hiroshima with me over the holidays but with little luck. I'm in need of a road trip so ... well I just phoned a couple of Aikido friends and sent you a private message.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-31-2003, 09:17 PM   #48
AsimHanif
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Peter - I tend to agree with your statements. Also I believe that the same generational phenom of etiquette current in Japan has been tested somewhat here in the States. The expression "keeping it real" employed by the under 30 demographic initially meant being honest and true. It now has been used to give license to do and say whatever comes to mind regardless of who it hurts. My personal feeling is that this unchecked disregard for humanity is wrong.

BTW - I am not putting Don's comments in this category at all. I have been know to take issue to a few of my college Profs "theories" when I believed they had misrepresented certain facts. Of course they would try to pull "rank".

This all reminds me of something that was said to me long ago that has since become my mantra -

"Just train and everything will take care of itself".
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Old 12-31-2003, 09:25 PM   #49
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Asim Hanif (AsimHanif) wrote:
"Just train and everything will take care of itself".
Wise words.

I was once told half in jest - after too much discussion on my part.

In the East a 16 year old listens to a 60 year old man talk about life.

In the West a 16 year old tells the old man what life is all about.

Not sure what that has to do with the thread but ... Happy New Year all.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-05-2004, 03:42 AM   #50
happysod
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PeteR, to be fair, the regarding age with respect was due to many factors that no longer exist, the main one being that surviving to an old age was rare and often denoted valuable experience to be respected. I agree that the west in particular has embraced a culture of promoting youthfulness to an absurd degree (look at ageism in the workplace for the direct effects of this) but dismissing opinion because of the age of the proponent has always struck me as odd. (note, I'm not ascribing this behavior to you, just to your post's implications).

For me, respect or more correctly manners as I can be very polite to someone while being highly disrespectful, is directly linked to the consequences of "overstepping the bounds". This is an area where the web is one of the most interesting forums as many cultures with different expectations of mannered behaviour interact in a very direct manner. Most forums find a level of acceptable behaviour determined by the members themselves and posters who transgress are ignored or pilliored (our very own aikiweb's Justin was an example).

However, returning in a very longwinded way to aikiweb, my view is that if you post, you must be prepared to justify your post. It is a discussion forum with peer review and should enjoy as little censorship as possible and no-one should have a "free ticket to ride". Just because you've been doing something for 40 years, doesn't mean you've been doing it right and aren't there quotes like "out of the mouths of babes?..."
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