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Old 05-06-2007, 08:42 PM   #101
Dan Austin
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Like I have not heard this a 1000 times spoken by someone with allot of incorrect 2nd hand assumptions.

You're on the wrong forum bro...

William Hazen
Everyone's entitled to an opinion, and I'm certainly not the only one to observe that it might be good to modernize the curriculum. While my concerns don't have to be shared by anyone else (though I see them all over the board), the original poster is entitled to hear different opinions. Your comment also makes little sense in light of the fact that in this very thread you mentioned having crosstrained in MMA for 5 years. If Aikido training lacks nothing, why do that?

Last edited by Dan Austin : 05-06-2007 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 05-07-2007, 12:09 AM   #102
CNYMike
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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..... As a male you're pretty unlikely to have your wrist grabbed in a fight .....
Every self defense system in the world has counters to wrist grabs. Inosanto kali includes a counter to what in Aikido we would call kosa dori, leading to juji garame (I think). Yet the empty hand portion also includes Panantukan -- Filipino boxing -- which heavily influened Western boxing.

Furthermore, when sparring in Jun Fan, it's not unusaly for someone to try and grab your wrist! The reason is obvious: grab with one hand and hit with the other. This also applies to shoulder grabs (kata dori). I remember 20 years ago seeing a brawl at a hockey game on TV. Two players had grabbed each other's shoulders with their right hands and were bashing each other's heads with their left hands -- at the same time! More recently, there was a big scandal in Canada when one player came up behind another, grabbed his collar from behind (ushiro eri dori) and hit him with the other hand. The player who was hit fell forward; as he was moving down the rink at the time, he ended up with a serious neck injury that ended his career.

I think it's obvious why grabs are studied: because you want to short circuit the hit that is going to come after it. What if you're too late? That's when things like kata dori shomenuchi come in (IMHO).

Why don't western boxers grab the other guy's wrist? Well, it's physically impossible. Boxers have their hands and wrists wrapped so their wrists stay straight. Then you put a boxing glove -- basically a pillow that weighs somewhere around a pound -- over that. I've recently been exposed to 16 ounce gloves in Jun Fan; you can make a fist but forget a bout grabbing anything.

So there are perfectly valid reasons why Aikido trains against grabs. And their are perfectly valid reasons why Boxers don't. Which one is "better" depends on which one suits you.

Quote:
..... Ueshiba had loads of experience sparring before codifying his art, so to just jump to the finished product makes it hard to develop the kind of timing and experience you need against someone good....
Even so, when you look at his book Budo Training in Aikido, a lot of the little drawings show counters to, you guessed it, grabs. Not surpruising since Hidden Roots of Aikido shows daito ryu people doing a lot of stuff off grabs.
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Old 05-07-2007, 09:49 AM   #103
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

I actually think grabs are reasonably common attacks. I think we have a basic instinct that tells us to immobilize someone before hitting them. And certainly, if you're going to try to throw someone down, grabbing them first is pretty common.

In my limited BJJ experience (very limited), I find that if I contract my arms, people go for the back of my head and my shoulders/legs. If I extend my hands (as though putting distance between us, or reaching out for my partner) and subtly 'offer' them, they generally seize my wrists or thereabouts. To my mild surprise, one technique that comes up a lot is tenchinage, because it's a fairly "direct" forward movement that has less requirement for a "if they let go" contingency. For reference, I usually start BJJ from kneeling, although the basic idea seems the same from standing.

(I'll add that I'm not claiming to be able to reliably throw grapplers.)

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 05-07-2007 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 05-07-2007, 11:23 AM   #104
Dan Austin
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Every self defense system in the world has counters to wrist grabs. .
Granted, but they don't take years to learn, and atemi is a much easier counter in most cases anyway. I don't want my comment to take on some overblown meaning, there is more to Aikido than that. The larger issue is that many traditional arts suffer from not focusing on more modern attacks. The repertoire of Aikido was developed at a time prior to the information age where all this comparison and cross-pollination is possible and common. Ueshiba did travel Japan to seek out different instructors and styles, and what he created as a curriculum reflects his experience, which is very different than today. Apart from techniques, the other issue is that the training in many traditional arts amounts to variations of one-step sparring. When you are faced with a limited repertoire of attacks, you can get really good at reading them and choosing a counter, getting the timing, and so forth. Beyond the basics that's probably not the most efficient training method. Even if people do grab you they also let go (especially after a real atemi), and otherwise act unlike a typical uke. Your example of being punched with the other hand is an excellent example of another thing that's completely different than traditional training. I'm not covering any new ground here, these are the normal criticisms offered for many traditional arts, and you see them here regularly from people questioning their Aikido training. I'm on the fence about certain things, and I don't particularly want to play the role of Devil's Advocate against Aikido, but I tend to accept those as valid criticisms whether I personally like them or not. How much it matters probably depends on what you want to get out of your training. The original poster here seems to want to "prove" to critics that Aikido is effective, which is not a good attitude on many levels.

If you already have reasons other than combat effectiveness to study Aikido, that's fine. It's the combination of not having a combative background, and assuming that Aikido alone will fill that void, that I would caution against. If effectiveness is his main concern, perhaps he should come to Aikido with a different attitude after having worked through that concern in a more combative art if necessary. The "wussy" aspect isn't worth a serious response, but it's disingenuous to dismiss all criticism as though it always comes from thoughtless teenagers. Any martial art depends on a fine sense of timing and distance, and the most efficient way to learn that is to do a lot of sparring. In practical terms that means that if you are concerned about effectiveness, you should study the arts you would want to use your preferred art against. If you do study a lot of combative arts, you may end up not seeing the point of doing Aikido, but if you do, you'll be coming to Aikido for a better reason.
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Old 05-07-2007, 11:36 AM   #105
Dan Austin
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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I actually think grabs are reasonably common attacks. I think we have a basic instinct that tells us to immobilize someone before hitting them. And certainly, if you're going to try to throw someone down, grabbing them first is pretty common.

In my limited BJJ experience (very limited), I find that if I contract my arms, people go for the back of my head and my shoulders/legs. If I extend my hands (as though putting distance between us, or reaching out for my partner) and subtly 'offer' them, they generally seize my wrists or thereabouts.
Roy Harris is one BJJ instructor who incorporates a fair amount of Aikido in his grappling. Not so much in a standing context as far as I know, but on the ground there is less freedom for the opponent to adjust and counter, and most people aren't expecting wristlocks and are used to constantly grabbing at you. Of course this is in a context where being punched isn't a risk, and it's no big deal if your lock fails. In a punching context I think it's pretty risky.
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Old 05-07-2007, 02:25 PM   #106
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

(Oh dear me I can't believe I'm entering this fray!)

Please excuse any ignorance on my part, I'm very new to studying Aikido.

Isn't one of the reasons people unfamiliar with Aikido criticise it is because they are looking for something different from their art?

Aikido was (as far as I understand it) created to help realise the goal to be a perfect human being in both mind and body through training and practice.

To criticise it's effectiveness or manliness is the equivalent of claiming the Tea Ceremony is pointless, just use a teabag. The criticism misses the point of the exercise completely.

As far as I understand (and I really am very new) the purpose of training isn't to be the biggest bad@ss, but to find harmony with everything around you through the removal of self and ego.

I'm happy to learn if I have misunderstood.

Jon

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Old 05-07-2007, 03:11 PM   #107
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
I actually think grabs are reasonably common attacks. I think we have a basic instinct that tells us to immobilize someone before hitting them. And certainly, if you're going to try to throw someone down, grabbing them first is pretty common.

In my limited BJJ experience (very limited), I find that if I contract my arms, people go for the back of my head and my shoulders/legs. If I extend my hands (as though putting distance between us, or reaching out for my partner) and subtly 'offer' them, they generally seize my wrists or thereabouts. To my mild surprise, one technique that comes up a lot is tenchinage, because it's a fairly "direct" forward movement that has less requirement for a "if they let go" contingency. For reference, I usually start BJJ from kneeling, although the basic idea seems the same from standing.

(I'll add that I'm not claiming to be able to reliably throw grapplers.)
I think one of the main things Aikido brings to the table is the repition of those referece points for the locks and throws; they get burned into your muscle memory, so you instantly recoginize them when they are in front of you. I've noticed this mainly in pushing hads and freestyle lock flow drills. That's why things "pop out."

How Aiki applies to kickboxing is harder to figure out because (A) many dojos don' train from those reference points, and (B) Aikido doesn't really have a premioum on anything it does. It may bea case of paying attention to what you do when you spar; if you do something dfferently that you didn't do prior to Aikido, that might be it. But otherwise it can be hard to figure out.
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Old 05-07-2007, 05:00 PM   #108
Dan Austin
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Jon Sheriff wrote: View Post
(Oh dear me I can't believe I'm entering this fray!)

Please excuse any ignorance on my part, I'm very new to studying Aikido.

Isn't one of the reasons people unfamiliar with Aikido criticise it is because they are looking for something different from their art?

Aikido was (as far as I understand it) created to help realise the goal to be a perfect human being in both mind and body through training and practice.

To criticise it's effectiveness or manliness is the equivalent of claiming the Tea Ceremony is pointless, just use a teabag. The criticism misses the point of the exercise completely.

As far as I understand (and I really am very new) the purpose of training isn't to be the biggest bad@ss, but to find harmony with everything around you through the removal of self and ego.

I'm happy to learn if I have misunderstood.

Jon
People criticize the art for different things, but the main criticism is usually some variation of "it doesn't work" or "it's inefficient" - something related to the presumed likelihood of successfully employing it for self-defense. I like your tea analogy, LOL. Well, if what you really want is a cup of tea, isn't that a valid argument? So usually you see this line of thinking from people primarily interested in a great cup of tea.

Your stated understanding of the purpose is perfectly valid and a good reason many people choose the art. Where things often become fuzzy is in two related areas. First, Aikido is a martial art, not a philosophy or religion. Those areas can overlap (in the general sense, not just in Aikido), so it's sometimes not an easy distinction. Self-perfection and self-knowledge can be approached through martial art, in a way of transcending the martial nature without denying it. It's still a martial art. People who found martial arts often follow a progression of their earlier focus being more martial, and later focus on being more spiritual. Ueshiba and his Aikido, Wang XiangZhai and Yiquan, and so forth. After you focus on how to beat people up for a long time, when you get older and weaker you tend to search for deeper meaning. You can see this in Ueshiba's writings, and things like the greater focus on atemi in the early period.

The other related issue is that frequently, people who come to the art who have no particular concern to be bad@ss, as you put it, invest many years in training, and then a sort of presumption sets in that after all that time invested, they can defend themselves with Aikido if they needed. It may not be their main focus or concern, and it's often unspoken, but I don't know if I've ever encountered anyone who said, "oh, I know I probably couldn't use it to defend myself, but I don't care at all about that." That's easy to say now, but after you've spent hours and years toiling, it's not as easy to swallow. Then you might wonder, well if that's true, am I really learning to harmonize, or am I just pretending? Isn't it better if you could harmonize and neutralize a more realistic attack? Isn't that what Ueshiba was able to do? If you can't use it, are you really following the Way, or is your practice empty? How can you come to know the true Way if not through the fire of combat? Didn't Ueshiba come to understand harmony and not contesting against the opponent after developing a high level of skill doing just that?

See what you're getting into?
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Old 05-07-2007, 05:10 PM   #109
Dan Austin
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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How Aiki applies to kickboxing is harder to figure out because (A) many dojos don' train from those reference points, and (B) Aikido doesn't really have a premioum on anything it does. It may bea case of paying attention to what you do when you spar; if you do something dfferently that you didn't do prior to Aikido, that might be it. But otherwise it can be hard to figure out.
Ah, reference points, spoken like a JKD concepts aficionado. According to SBGi, reference points are not "aliveness". Which is a valid point. But it can happen more easily in grappling where the options are more limited. Kickboxing is very much about timing, ma-ai. I think there are of course ways to address that with Aikido principles, but it can never be blessed from the Founder for obvious reasons. Like many martial artists of his day he began to use words like "scientific warfare", since the power of the fruits of science could not be denied. So the idea that the techniques should be written in stone and never adapt to modern conditions doesn't follow from embracing a scientific view of combat.
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Old 05-07-2007, 06:00 PM   #110
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Jon Sheriff wrote: View Post
(Oh dear me I can't believe I'm entering this fray!)

Please excuse any ignorance on my part, I'm very new to studying Aikido.

Isn't one of the reasons people unfamiliar with Aikido criticise it is because they are looking for something different from their art?

Aikido was (as far as I understand it) created to help realise the goal to be a perfect human being in both mind and body through training and practice.

To criticise it's effectiveness or manliness is the equivalent of claiming the Tea Ceremony is pointless, just use a teabag. The criticism misses the point of the exercise completely.

As far as I understand (and I really am very new) the purpose of training isn't to be the biggest bad@ss, but to find harmony with everything around you through the removal of self and ego.

I'm happy to learn if I have misunderstood.

Jon
you are quite correct on your opinion, in my book. ive been studying for about a year, and am no longer a "super super white belt", but still pretty new none the less.
i agree with you all except you are learning to harmonize with all things while being able to defend yourslef against any sized attacker in the most painless way posisble (for the attacker). so in my book you get the benefit of harmony with the universe, and also you get to become a bad@ss after much training.
-morgan
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Old 05-07-2007, 07:18 PM   #111
Dan Austin
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Morgan Wible wrote: View Post
i agree with you all except you are learning to harmonize with all things while being able to defend yourslef against any sized attacker in the most painless way posisble (for the attacker). so in my book you get the benefit of harmony with the universe, and also you get to become a bad@ss after much training.
-morgan
Jon: see what I mean?
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Old 05-07-2007, 08:08 PM   #112
DonMagee
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

I had 3 sparing matches tonight, I did a test. Match one, I did not present the wrist. Number of times it was grabbed: 1. It was grabbed while working a clock choke from my back, I was in no position to attempt anything.

Match two, I presented my wrist, number of times grabbed during the match, 3 times. These were the first, second, and fourth attempt at taking me down, after this my partner realized what I was doing and ignored my wrist and went for traditional tie-ups. In the first two cases I was able to capitalize on the grab and use this to my advantage in an ikkyo like movement. On the thrid time he realized what I was doing and was able to counter me back to a neutral position.

Match three, I did not present my wrists, but I did not keep my hands inside, I just rolled naturally. Number of times my wrist was grabbed, 2 times. Once on an armdrag and once from my back while my partner was attempting to work up some kind of choke. In both cases I was unable to capitalize on the grab.

My partners were one advanced blue belt and two 6 month to 1 year white belts.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-07-2007, 08:45 PM   #113
CNYMike
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
..... the other issue is that the training in many traditional arts amounts to variations of one-step sparring.
So? I've seen plenty of that in Inosanto Kali for learning different disarms and empty hand entries and techniques. It's not the only form of traning, but it has its place.

Quote:
When you are faced with a limited repertoire of attacks, you can get really good at reading them and choosing a counter, getting the timing, and so forth. Beyond the basics that's probably not the most efficient training method .....
You can make that point about almost anything. For instance, western boxing has four techniques: Jab, cross, hook, uppercut. That's it. There are many varieties of each, but if all you d is box, that's all you see. Would someone who learned to box be very goo at reading and countering boxing, but flop against everything else? Your argument says "yes." If not, then maybe something else is going on?

Quote:
.... Even if people do grab you they also let go .....
I know. One night, my Aikido teacher tenkaned so fast I could not hang on to his wrist. Didn't faze him. "If he lets go, you do something else," he said, as his hand got ibn my face and I "blended" with the matat high speed.

Quote:
..... Your example of being punched with the other hand is an excellent example of another thing that's completely different than traditional training .....
Ahem I did mentioned the attacks where kata dori is followed up by a rear hand attack. Usually shomenuchi or yokomenuchi, but one night we looked at a punch. It comes up.

Quote:
.... The original poster here seems to want to "prove" to critics that Aikido is effective, which is not a good attitude on many levels.
There are enough testimonials about it that pop up to handle that.
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Old 05-07-2007, 08:47 PM   #114
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Well, we got both. We got folks that train in Aikido for self-defense reasons and we got folks that are not at all at the dojo for self-defense reasons - also realizing they couldn't defend themselves against those that are training for self-defense reasons. In a lot of classes, the two groups train together quite nicely. In some cases, for certain classes, the folks from the latter group just don't attend, don't want to attend, and don't feel a need to attend. They don't feel they are missing anything, at the very same time they realize that are not partaking of something.

What does this tell me? If you got some serious folks, training hard, no Aikido "lite" for them, etc., etc., the folks that don't train that way not only know they don't train that way, they are very happy for not training that way. If you got folks that don't know they are not training that way, or if you got folks that cannot be happy not training that way, one isn't really seeing something about the art. One is just seeing a lack of presence regarding the hardcore practitioner.

dmv

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Old 05-07-2007, 08:54 PM   #115
Roman Kremianski
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Aikido was (as far as I understand it) created to help realise the goal to be a perfect human being in both mind and body through training and practice.
Woaw, no. Perfect is definitely not the word you're looking for here dude.
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Old 05-07-2007, 08:58 PM   #116
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
..... Ah, reference points, spoken like a JKD concepts aficionado .....
Not surprising since I've been studying under people tied to Guro Dan Inosanto for ten years now, and I've been to several seminars with Guro Dan; it shouldn't be a shock they shaped my thinking.

Quote:
..... the idea that the techniques should be written in stone and never adapt to modern conditions doesn't follow from embracing a scientific view of combat.
Well, Aikido does have some wiggle room built in; there are as many styles as there are people teaching it (and probably practicing it). But I think there are limits. You want to teach grappling, do that any way you want. You want to teach Aikido, specifically, it's more than just the techniques. Something is being passed down to you, and you're passing it on to somone else. What will future generations get?

Personally, I'm approaching the traditional training from the presepctive of how it works and what do I get out of it. To coin a phrase, "No one martial art has all the answers but everything has somethin to offer." I won't get anywhere near what Aikido has if I don't look at the whole package.
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Old 05-07-2007, 09:39 PM   #117
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
I had 3 sparing matches tonight, I did a test. [...]
Great! Some more anecdotal evidence to add to the pool.

If I read that right, the number of potentially usable grabs was 0, 1, and 3, in ascending order of degree of offering. Ikkyo, though, kind of surprises me. I might just not be as good at it, but it generally feels like a wrist grab (with arms held below the shoulders, at least) is too low, given that in a BJJ context, they're generally willing to let go and reestablish a new grip if they feel you go for something.

The only times I've felt like ikkyo was feasible (and subsequently pulled it off) were when my shoulders were grabbed.

How high were you holding your wrists? Mine were a bit below "chest-high". At that height, the techniques I've tried are tenchinage and kotegaeshi. I'm currently wondering about shihonage -- if not the full technique, at least the opening arm-torque, perhaps taking it into that neck-hold people sometimes do. (I guess kind of like a ... what's that called...maybe a guillotine? But upside down?) I've also tried that inside-elbow-pushing kokyunage, but without that much success. (Works sometimes, but it's easy to run into their power.) Also, some desperate iriminages with some big guys. Generally felt like I was running right into their strength. I'd topple them sometimes, but they'd grab a leg or whatever and I wouldn't end up winning a very strong position.

In the above examples, I'm generally working with (other) relative beginners. (And again, this is generally starting from kneeling.) Less success doing things with people who have a better idea what they're doing. My standup vs. someone who knows judo = ow.

Anyway, I'll see if maybe I can take a more scientific tack, recording successes/failures, and let you know what I find.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 05-07-2007 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 05-07-2007, 10:04 PM   #118
Aikibu
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Everyone's entitled to an opinion, and I'm certainly not the only one to observe that it might be good to modernize the curriculum. While my concerns don't have to be shared by anyone else (though I see them all over the board), the original poster is entitled to hear different opinions. Your comment also makes little sense in light of the fact that in this very thread you mentioned having crosstrained in MMA for 5 years. If Aikido training lacks nothing, why do that?
Why not...You're mistaken in my reasons for crosstraining. It is not out of lack of "effective technique" in Aikido, but the exact opposite. Aikido like any Martial Art measures it's effectiveness in how well it "holds up" to other Martial Arts including MMA. There are several flavors of Aikido that hold up pretty well in my experiance. The bone of contention in all these cases concern the "goals" of Aikido which are vastly different than MMA. I also have experiance in other arts. The techniques of Aikido work period. The practice of Aikido also works. If there is fault to be found then it lies in the instruction which I do agree can be found lacking at times. That is why it is important to learn from the best and practice hard.

It can be frustrating to learn and one can lose sight of forest while complaining about the trees.... So what I tell folks is to leave and pursue your expertise in another discipline... Then give Aikido a try. Perhaps your perspective will change.

William Hazen

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Old 05-07-2007, 10:22 PM   #119
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Great! Some more anecdotal evidence to add to the pool.

If I read that right, the number of potentially usable grabs was 0, 1, and 3, in ascending order of degree of offering. Ikkyo, though, kind of surprises me. I might just not be as good at it, but it generally feels like a wrist grab (with arms held below the shoulders, at least) is too low, given that in a BJJ context, they're generally willing to let go and reestablish a new grip if they feel you go for something.
Perhaps you have discovered the cruxt of your problem with Aikido. Why are you "going" for anything your partner throws at you? If you're putting energy into "conflicting" with your partner then of course you're going to experiance difficulty.

If I have heard it once I have heard it a thousand times from Sensei at the beginning of my Aikido journey. "RELAX and STOP FIGHTING. Let them attack all they want...When the time is right you enter!"

Folks love to grab my wrist hard and stand there waiting for me to do something or throw a combination and hope I "fight back." Aikido is not designed to win conflicts in this manner by going mano au mano...matching blow for blow...

William Hazen
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Old 05-08-2007, 06:12 AM   #120
DonMagee
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Great! Some more anecdotal evidence to add to the pool.

If I read that right, the number of potentially usable grabs was 0, 1, and 3, in ascending order of degree of offering. Ikkyo, though, kind of surprises me. I might just not be as good at it, but it generally feels like a wrist grab (with arms held below the shoulders, at least) is too low, given that in a BJJ context, they're generally willing to let go and reestablish a new grip if they feel you go for something.

The only times I've felt like ikkyo was feasible (and subsequently pulled it off) were when my shoulders were grabbed.

How high were you holding your wrists? Mine were a bit below "chest-high". At that height, the techniques I've tried are tenchinage and kotegaeshi. I'm currently wondering about shihonage -- if not the full technique, at least the opening arm-torque, perhaps taking it into that neck-hold people sometimes do. (I guess kind of like a ... what's that called...maybe a guillotine? But upside down?) I've also tried that inside-elbow-pushing kokyunage, but without that much success. (Works sometimes, but it's easy to run into their power.) Also, some desperate iriminages with some big guys. Generally felt like I was running right into their strength. I'd topple them sometimes, but they'd grab a leg or whatever and I wouldn't end up winning a very strong position.

In the above examples, I'm generally working with (other) relative beginners. (And again, this is generally starting from kneeling.) Less success doing things with people who have a better idea what they're doing. My standup vs. someone who knows judo = ow.

Anyway, I'll see if maybe I can take a more scientific tack, recording successes/failures, and let you know what I find.
When I presented the hand, my arm was out slightly bent with fingers about neck high. When I kept my hands back, I kept the elbows in tight with my chest like I had T-Rex arms. When I was natural, I just did what I do naturally, sometimes I reach, sometimes I don't. These matches all started from the knees. I'm going to get some of my friends to start standing (we are all judo guys as well) this weekend and see what I can work.

I do not go for a technique, I use the ikkyo movement to create an angle of attack. You are right, they do let go to re-grip, but by the time they let go their balance is broken and I am able to out maneuver them. Usually this movement allows me to get side control or their back. So basically its a big arm circle with a tenkan step, if they don't let go they know they are going face down, so they do let go and attempt to turn in to pull guard, however by this time the angle is usually insufficient for them to do so. It is working with a fair amount of success though, the trick is getting them to grab your wrist. It seems the more advanced students realize it is out there for a reason and just work around it. I am hoping I get to play with this at NAGA at the end of the month.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-08-2007, 07:42 AM   #121
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Thanks for the replies, William and Don; you've both given me stuff to think about.
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Old 05-08-2007, 07:55 AM   #122
Ron Tisdale
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

Hi Don,

Looking forward to hearing how that goes. Thanks for the posts...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 05-08-2007, 02:59 PM   #123
CNYMike
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
I had 3 sparing matches tonight, I did a test. Match one, I did not present the wrist. Number of times it was grabbed: 1. It was grabbed while working a clock choke from my back, I was in no position to attempt anything.

Match two, I presented my wrist, number of times grabbed during the match, 3 times. These were the first, second, and fourth attempt at taking me down, after this my partner realized what I was doing and ignored my wrist and went for traditional tie-ups. In the first two cases I was able to capitalize on the grab and use this to my advantage in an ikkyo like movement. On the thrid time he realized what I was doing and was able to counter me back to a neutral position.

Match three, I did not present my wrists, but I did not keep my hands inside, I just rolled naturally. Number of times my wrist was grabbed, 2 times. Once on an armdrag and once from my back while my partner was attempting to work up some kind of choke. In both cases I was unable to capitalize on the grab.

My partners were one advanced blue belt and two 6 month to 1 year white belts.
You shouldn't be preoccupied with the wrist grab because there are other grabs studied: Grabs at the elbows, the shoulders, etc. So in theory, you should be able to present anything and when your partner goes for it you have him. Of course, that requires being one step ahead of your oppoent, but the relevant JKD term would be ABD, "attack by drawing" --- you bait him with a target and when he takes the bait, you apply whatever presents itself. Ideally, uke moves, nage moves, and nage does whatever he can with whatever he (or she) gets. But to get there, you do things bassackwards through the prearranged training.

So if you were to try the test again, same mindset but offer .... whatever. I think katate dori is used first because it is simple, straightforward, and the entries are least confusing.

Just my 2p.
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Old 05-08-2007, 03:43 PM   #124
Dan Austin
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Why not...You're mistaken in my reasons for crosstraining. It is not out of lack of "effective technique" in Aikido, but the exact opposite. Aikido like any Martial Art measures it's effectiveness in how well it "holds up" to other Martial Arts including MMA. There are several flavors of Aikido that hold up pretty well in my experiance. The bone of contention in all these cases concern the "goals" of Aikido which are vastly different than MMA. I also have experiance in other arts. The techniques of Aikido work period. The practice of Aikido also works. If there is fault to be found then it lies in the instruction which I do agree can be found lacking at times. That is why it is important to learn from the best and practice hard.

It can be frustrating to learn and one can lose sight of forest while complaining about the trees.... So what I tell folks is to leave and pursue your expertise in another discipline... Then give Aikido a try. Perhaps your perspective will change.

William Hazen
Sounds good, I said essentially the same thing a few posts back. If effectiveness is a concern, it's good to stay current with the arts of the day regardless of what your chosen art is. That experience also helps one be able to evaluate how the training is in any given school.
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Old 05-08-2007, 03:48 PM   #125
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: "Aikido is for wusses": a response?

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Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Actually the wrist grab is a form of beginning practice. The wrist grab alone is an incomplete attack. It's been said that if an attacker can get ahold of you, you are basically already dead. We allow ourselves to be grabbed as part of the training process. Aikido is not fighting or about fighting. No matter how many tmes this is explained, we all seem to forget, again and again. I suppose that just goes to show how hard transformational training really is.

In gassho,

Mark
This was so right on that I just wanted it to reappear in the post in case anyone missed it a little ways back on the road.

jen
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