Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-14-2002, 11:51 AM   #26
dc20
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 22
Offline
Joshua,

I know exactly the court case you are referring to, which says police in general are not liable for a citizen in general being victimized. That refers to the "obligation to protect" and "special relationship" standards applied to police. What I was referring to is when, for example, you arrive at an active fight with...let's say three "beaters" and one "beatee." You now are aware of the crime and have a "special relationship" with the victim, and are legally obliged to act. But in the same scenario, with police unavailable (or never called), there is no special relationship established and police are not liable.
I am simply saying that we have a wide range of options available that constitute action (from calling for help, to shooting them all). Civilian or police should understand their options in order to choose the best one according to their physical size, skills, weapons, etc. Then you can make a decision how best to help someone. It is very rarely by offering yourself as a sacrifice.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2002, 12:33 PM   #27
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Thanks

Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Ledyard Sensei,

Sir, with all due respect,I think the 'call the police' group is coming from a slightly different place than you perceive-- and we may be all coming from different places within that group. But here is my take on it, first with a personal example:

I was married to a man who liked to beat his wives. I knew he could get violent. And I knew first hand how violent. And his violence would increase if he thought someone was 'taking her side'. I lived in fear that some well meaning man would, at the wrong time, intervene, push him over the edge, and instead of just beating me, he'd shoot me and my rescuer. Even if I could be sure the rescuer had as much skill (and size) as you, I much, much, much prefered that anyone interested in helping me get somewhere safe and call the police, and make sure he knew the police were coming.

I was going to reply earlier that I felt for the police who had pleaded with us not try to do their job: rarely do onlookers feel compelled to do mine...they all gather around to get in the way for us to get to the victim, but they often don't attempt even the simplist first aid, or CPR. It would be nice if they knew how to do it, and that they did. But it is nicer that they aren't making my job worse, either. And first aid and CPR don't require decades to get good enough at it to do something; maybe you can only get safe and call the police, and yell out the window that they are coming...but then when the bad guys run away, wouldn't it be great if you knew how to stop the bleeding? That info might be just as important, if not more, than the harder to get proficiency in martial arts or even firearms.

Anyway, just my personal opinion. I didn't back when I was married (nor still) want a bystander to just stand there, but neither do I want him to jump into the fray. I want him to avoid becoming a victim himself, something that would give me severe emotional and mental harm, and to make sure help (including police and medical) arrive.

As for us arming ourselves...well, I've seen even police, who are highly trained and do this every day for their living, make mistakes and shoot an innocent person. I've patched up some of those, and children and adults accidently shot by friends and relatives, and sometimes not been able to patch them up.

I have the deepest respect for you, sir, I really do, but even you I would prefer to see call the police.
Thank you so much for your heartfelt contribution. I completely get where you are coming from. In point of fact I would have to make a very quick assessment and then go with my instincts when it came to intervening. That would especially be true in a domestic violence situation.

On the other hand I am not one to put huge amounts of responsibility on the police. I train these guys and am quite familiar with their capabilities. Most of the time I would probably call them because my interevention would not be necessary. I am not going to place myself at risk lightly.

Twice when I lived in Washington, DC I interevened in domestic violence situations. Both involved guys beating up their girl friends on the street. One was serious in that he seemed intent on doing some real damage. In that case other men and women from the neighborhood arrived at the scene at the same time to help and we simply dissuaded the fellow from continuing his actions until the police arrived. My training came in to play only to the extent that the consequences of his continuing to beat this woman would have been real and not empty threats and he knew it.

In this instance that woman could have been dead if we hadn't intervened. He had picked up a post that supported a divider chain on the lawn and was hitting her with it. Fortunately when he grabbed it it turned out to be plastic and she wasn't seriously hurt. But he clearly hadn't grabbed it with that in mind. And if it had been a metal post she would have been maimed long before the police arrived. As it was they were there in about four or five minutes. They arrived and we stepped back. I would have had some real personal issues with myself if I had felt that I had to hold back and simply watch her being beaten because I hadn't the skill or intention to help.

But I am also aware that the issues involved are quite complex and I would always act with serious forethought about the consequences.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2002, 12:49 PM   #28
ronmar
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 66
Offline
I read everyone's posts and find myself agreeing with every one on some level. I liked what Colleen had to say and I think I will be taking a course in basic first aid as soon as possible. I just want to be able to help in some way, not necessarily jump in and be a hero. That sort of action would be stupid in a lot of situations.
However, I think that George Ledyard hit the nail on the head. You have to take responsibility for your own actions and not just rely on the authorities. It is a very different thing to intervene in a pub argument, and perhaps prevent a minor assault, than it is to wade in and try to stop a drug related execution. In the latter example you will get yourself killed, no matter how good a martial artist you are. I feel most of us should be able to choose when is a good time to intervene and when is not.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2002, 01:06 PM   #29
Kat.C
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
Offline
Colleen addressed this issue in her post and I felt it needed to be mentioned again as people often don't think about it. Intervening in an attack could result in a weapon being brought into play. In the small village that I grew up in there have been a few shootings. One time two people got into a fight at a bar. Others stopped the fight and one man walked out to his truck got his gun walked back to the bar and killed someone. I do not recall who he shot, but I believe it was the man who he had attacked. Please be careful if you are trying to help, you do not know what your actions may provoke the attacker into doing.

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2002, 01:24 PM   #30
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
Ronmar,

Great, good to hear that! You'd be surprised how handy it can be, not just on the street or in the dojo, but at home, work, etc. Sometimes the ability to stop arterial bleeding, or perform CPR, while simple to learn, can mean the difference between life and death. And while I've never broke up a fight, or stopped a mugging, I have stopped on the side of a road and saved a life. And that is a really good feeling. Take it from me, there is a reason doctors develop a God-complex and the feeling can be addicting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2002, 01:42 PM   #31
gadsmf@aol.com
Dojo: Kokoro,Tucson
Location: Tucson AZ
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 25
Offline
Do symbol

Some very interesting threads here on a very difficult subject. I am fortunate enough never
to have been exposed to a situation of physical violence to myself or others, or at least those situations that had the potential of physicality, I was at least able to diffuse by talking down the half hearted would-be trouble makers.
However,I find myself agreeing strongly with George Ledyard. Why do we do martial arts? If we want to get fit we could take up roller blading or swimming etc.If we want to enhance our spirtual energy we could do Yoga or Tai Chi. I suspect we do Aikido because as well as the above reasons we also wish for the ability and strength to defend ourselves and others.
As an RN I have a professional (and also legal) duty to aid anyone who needs help during a health emergency both in and out of hospital. As a martial artist (albeit a crappy one) I feel I have a moral duty to at least consider intervention where, once evaluated, there is at least a chance that it may help. I can't dodge bullets or break baseball bats with my shin, but I can put myself and my Ki in between a victim and the assailant(s) and say "the cops are on their way, leave this person alone"

DL Gadd
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2002, 02:14 PM   #32
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Intervention

Quote:
Originally posted by Kat.C
Colleen addressed this issue in her post and I felt it needed to be mentioned again as people often don't think about it. Intervening in an attack could result in a weapon being brought into play. In the small village that I grew up in there have been a few shootings. One time two people got into a fight at a bar. Others stopped the fight and one man walked out to his truck got his gun walked back to the bar and killed someone. I do not recall who he shot, but I believe it was the man who he had attacked. Please be careful if you are trying to help, you do not know what your actions may provoke the attacker into doing.
This is absolutely true. There are many instances in which someone tried to step in and ended up dead. You don't get involved unless you are willing to accept the possibility that this can happen. No matter how good your training is you could be dead. That is true for you as a civilian and it is true for the police officer that responds. It is even true for the EMT that is there to help. I had a DT student who was an EMT and she has had several instances in which she was attacked by the very subject she was trying to help.

For a lot of Aikido people our training is metaphorical. It is something that teaches us to be more centered, less violent, able to see the futility in being oppositional, etc. But many Aikido people really don't train with the idea that the techniques themselves would be applied to defend themselves or someone else. I train with the idea in mind that this is a real martial art and I could concievably be called on to use it in the defense of someone who is not able to defend themselves. If I am in a situation in which there is a higher liklihood that I will need to use my training I react accordingly. I do part time work as a private investigator and some of that work involves protective details. When I knew that the subject we were potentially dealing with might be armed, I carried a firearm. If I simply expected someone who might be violent but not necessarily armed I carried an ASP baton. It depended on the nature of the detail. But it isn't a matter of wishful thinking about the powers of Aikido and conflict resolution.

I see so many dojos where the practice simply has nothing to do with application at all. In fact actual application of technique is considered irrelevant as Aikido "isn't about fighting". In my opinion that statement is merely an excuse to cover up training that is inadequate.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2002, 04:40 PM   #33
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by gadsmf@aol.com
Some very interesting threads here on a very difficult subject. I am fortunate enough never
to have been exposed to a situation of physical violence to myself or others, or at least those situations that had the potential of physicality, I was at least able to diffuse by talking down the half hearted would-be trouble makers.
However,I find myself agreeing strongly with George Ledyard. Why do we do martial arts? If we want to get fit we could take up roller blading or swimming etc.If we want to enhance our spirtual energy we could do Yoga or Tai Chi. I suspect we do Aikido because as well as the above reasons we also wish for the ability and strength to defend ourselves and others.
As an RN I have a professional (and also legal) duty to aid anyone who needs help during a health emergency both in and out of hospital. As a martial artist (albeit a crappy one) I feel I have a moral duty to at least consider intervention where, once evaluated, there is at least a chance that it may help. I can't dodge bullets or break baseball bats with my shin, but I can put myself and my Ki in between a victim and the assailant(s) and say "the cops are on their way, leave this person alone"
Why do Aikido if your goal is self defense? As has been mentioned over and over on this web, there are MA much more easily and quickly learned for SD purposes, or even a self-defense class at the Y. Or carry a gun. Or pepper spray. You do Aikido for self-defense. I do not. I carry a cell phone and act intelligently for self defense 'in the street' and a 9mm for self defense in a combat zone.

If I am ever attacked, and rather than get away (which I feel fairly confident of my ability to do), I must stay and save the sorry a** of someone putting their Ki between me and the assailant, I will not be very happy.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2002, 07:23 PM   #34
paw
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
Offline
brief intermission

Colleen,

I have great respect for the honesty and courage it took to give the forum your personal example. Thank You.

Warm Regards,

Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2002, 08:33 PM   #35
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Goal of Training?

Quote:
Originally posted by ca


Why do Aikido if your goal is self defense? As has been mentioned over and over on this web, there are MA much more easily and quickly learned for SD purposes, or even a self-defense class at the Y. Or carry a gun. Or pepper spray. You do Aikido for self-defense. I do not.
I agree with you. In my own case however I can't say that I do Aikido FOR self defense. I haven't had to use it yet and I don't really expect to. The reasons that I do Aikido would probably sound all ethereal and New Age-ie. I was an Asian Religions major in college, almost tried for a Phd in Buddhist studies but decided it was impractical as a way to make a living (so I ended up teaching Aikido which is about the only thing less practical, hah hah).

It's just that if I am going to spend my entire adult life training in some wierd Japanese martial art with all sorts of cool energetics and mystical twists I darn well want to be able to handle myself if I need to.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2002, 12:36 PM   #36
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Offline
Women and violence

I think we all agree.

Get help before you risk your life to help another.

If verbal warnings work, fine.

Of course, men are stupid enough to forget the danger of jumping into a fight and becoming a victim or hero?

This doesn't mean a woman should be that stupid too.

Leave jumping into a fight to the men.

We men have enough stupidity for the whole family ....
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
causing no (serious) harm jss General 92 05-06-2005 10:16 AM
Seizure by violence kocakb General 4 06-13-2004 10:57 PM
What is your limit for violence? Jeff Tibbetts Spiritual 40 07-10-2003 09:43 PM
So, what are your thoughts on violence and Aikido? Dennis Hooker General 86 05-01-2003 06:19 AM
Aikido and the politics of violence Neil Mick Spiritual 54 09-12-2002 02:55 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:22 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate