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Old 11-05-2017, 05:14 PM   #26
jurasketu
Dojo: Roswell Budokan
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Re: Lost in Aikido

I do strongly recommend reading Meditations of Violence. I also recommend On Combat.

https://www.amazon.com/Combat-Psycho.../dp/0964920549

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 11-05-2017, 10:14 PM   #27
Trolloc63
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Blush! Re: Lost in Aikido

So I've been doing some video research on realistic applications of Aikido. And there is this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7MNOpQhlBQ

This is a vid of Steven Segal practicing with some MMA guys. At the 2:40 min mark, he shows the application of applying a technique off of a more realistic straight punch.

From my limited knowledge of several different styles, this appears to be a combination of blocking with the arm/elbow, riding the punch or feeding it to the other hand which captures, then attacking with the first hand to the face as a strike or distraction. You can then apply technique. Kind of a difficult description, but watch the video and you will see it. Seems to be pretty realistic to me. But like anything you would have to train it and spar.

Does anyone know where he learned these hand deflections? Some of this seems like limp capture mixed with slipping, mixed with limb destruction via the elbow.

A similar form in 52 blocks is the "skull and crossbones", but that's for straight destruction.

Very interesting stuff if you ask me.
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Old 11-05-2017, 10:34 PM   #28
Trolloc63
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Re: Lost in Aikido

So after more research, this appears to be some form of arm deflections, not hand deflections. This vid shows some good examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDsJBtvqdo4

Seems pretty realistic if the attacker committed. Probably less so if they did not throw a heavy punch.
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Old 11-07-2017, 09:46 PM   #29
Trolloc63
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Re: Lost in Aikido

I love how I point stuff out that may actually work in real life and I get crickets.

Anyway I have begun my Aikido journey yet again, as humiliating as it is. I guess it will take a few years before I have a good understanding.

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Old 11-08-2017, 04:45 AM   #30
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Lost in Aikido

Quote:
Joe Patach wrote: View Post
I love how I point stuff out that may actually work in real life and I get crickets.
Welcome to aikido
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Old 11-08-2017, 04:54 AM   #31
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Lost in Aikido

Quote:
Joe Patach wrote: View Post
I love how I point stuff out that may actually work in real life and I get crickets.

Anyway I have begun my Aikido journey yet again, as humiliating as it is. I guess it will take a few years before I have a good understanding.

I'm not sure what you want us to say. It looks like aikido to me. (I'll leave it to others to talk about the quality of the aikido.) It's the sort of thing that most of us have done every day for years or decades. I think Mary wrote something earlier about being careful about making declarations with limited experience. They were wise words...
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:57 AM   #32
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Lost in Aikido

It is hard to learn new ideas when one is attached to to old ways.

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Old 11-08-2017, 09:32 AM   #33
lbb
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Re: Lost in Aikido

Quote:
Joe Patach wrote: View Post
I love how I point stuff out that may actually work in real life and I get crickets.
Consider the possibility that some of us, at least, were busy with things other than aikiweb. Don't read so much into it.
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Old 11-08-2017, 02:49 PM   #34
Erick Mead
 
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Post Re: Lost in Aikido

Quote:
Joe Patach wrote: View Post
So after more research, this appears to be some form of arm deflections, not hand deflections. This vid shows some good examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDsJBtvqdo4

Seems pretty realistic if the attacker committed. Probably less so if they did not throw a heavy punch.
To put that move in more formal terms, if one cares -- it strings two basic movement variants in a manner of henkawaza:

1) It begins as an ikkyo engagement of the punch. It treats nage's arm as foreshortened (as though with stubby elbow-length arms) but the tai sabaki of it is ikkyo

2) The follow-up change in the backfist (metsubushi?) is a manner of straight entering kokyunage, (and the tai sabaki is equally primed to invert for an ikkyo engagement of the (not unlikely) off-hand counterpunch by uke)

3) The final movement variants seem to illustrate that if entry is too impeded for the full kokyunage insertion, there are options (in the exact same mode of throw) to:
a) buckle his structure rolling/striking the shoulder back, or
b) following the leading arm flow around, down and into the arm-wrapped kotegaeshi

The two basic tai sabaki principles are present -- The first closing the body from the outside of the strike, the second opening the body into two possible forms of kokyu throw and the last of that variant (the formal kotegaeshi) then reversing to close the body once again.

In all the options -- only the range and manner of engagement allowed by the circumstance really change. The tai sabaki is simple and spindle-like, in the manner of a "prayer drum" with the in-yo close-open-close etc. of the frame in concert with the progressive irimi-tenkan of the movements.

Key thing is IMO, that one does not, cannot, plan this or train this precise engagement -- it evolves completely from the first principles expressed from the body in course of the physical engagement itself.

Aikido is (or ought to be) an extensive training mode for discovering, learning and expressing those first principles of this manner of action, not a collection of mere "techniques." Looking at it the first way makes it plainly martially effective and profound. Looking at it the second way makes it seem trite and utterly lacking.

This difference of perception in the purpose and intent of the art is fundamental to these sorts of debates, it seems to me.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:09 PM   #35
jurasketu
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Re: Lost in Aikido

In addition to given an Amen to the comments of Erik Mead, Mary Malmros, Mary Eastland, Robin Boyd and Demetrio Cereijo, at risk of being obtuse, let me speak to training methods and effectiveness outside of martial arts with an example from my own experience.

In high school (many moons ago), I was an elite Mathlete. I even have a varsity letter and was named my high school's Mathlete of the Year. In other words, I was really good at competitive problem solving. 😊

A Math Team tournament usually consists of two parts. First, the players are given a challenging thirty to ninety minute multiple-choice test of unusual variations of the standard problem types. Then there are 16 to 24 single-problem written competition rounds called "ciphering" that are scored based on time (i.e. more points for getting the answer correct faster) or in order of completion of the competing players (i.e. the first four players with correct answers would score 4-3-2-1 and the remaining players would get nothing). In a tournament of twenty or more teams, scoring "firsts" or "seconds" is crucial to winning. The ciphering problems are either ordinary problems that would be difficult to solve quickly using standard techniques or are unusual problem variations without a standard solution technique. Both situations require the players to creatively apply the principles of problem solving to invent a fast and accurate solution technique in the competitive moment.

It requires a special kind of Math Zen to intuit and execute a solution technique under the crushing panic of that competitive time pressure. That Math Zen is not easy to learn or teach. It requires understanding principles, explicit confidence in the basics to avoid fatal errors and calmness of mind to avert the panic.

Mathletes don't complain that the techniques that they had spent considerable time learning were not effective in a competition. It is understood explicitly or implicitly that the problem variations and solution techniques presented in training were idealized versions designed to teach the principles of problem solving. Real, complex problems require application of problem solving principles and confident execution of the basic techniques.

I still regularly use those problem-solving principles to earn a very fine income as a software engineer solving novel problems effectively under the pressures of time.

For me, I feel/recognize that Math training in my Aikido training. If only my Aikido Zen now were as good as my Math Zen was then.

Explicitly stated, the lesson is that Aikido training is very much like Math training. Aikido training seems to be purposed to teach martial principles that can be applied to the world of general martial situations/problems.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:41 AM   #36
lbb
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Re: Lost in Aikido

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
Explicitly stated, the lesson is that Aikido training is very much like Math training. Aikido training seems to be purposed to teach martial principles that can be applied to the world of general martial situations/problems.
I agree - but I don't think it's something that can be grasped from the outside, any more than someone who has never studied algebra can understand differential equations. The question is whether, as someone new come to a field of study, you look at what advanced practitioners do and declare it fraudulent because you don't have the background to understand how it's done. The study of aikido to me is more like an inductive proof than standard deductive reasoning

Bottom line, to OP, you can call this a copout if you want, but to learn you really do have to empty your cup, set aside preconceptions, trust your teacher, and train with sincerity in what they are teaching you now, not what you hope to learn later. So you have to make a judgment call, about whether this person is trustworthy (recommendations help) and whether the hoped-for goal is worth your time in any case. Understand that the judgment is whether it is worth YOUR time, not whether it's worth someone else's time or whether it's worthy in general. As my mom used to say at restaurants, "You order for you and I'll order for me."
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:52 PM   #37
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Lost in Aikido

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
... but to learn you really do have to empty your cup, set aside preconceptions, trust your teacher, and train with sincerity in what they are teaching you now, not what you hope to learn later. So you have to make a judgment call, about whether this person is trustworthy (recommendations help) and whether the hoped-for goal is worth your time in any case.
I'll add to this the point that if all one learns is what is being taught -- one isn't paying enough attention to the lesson.

As the saying goes: it is a poor teacher who teaches only the lesson given; it is a poor student who learns only the lesson taught.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 11-10-2017, 06:55 AM   #38
SeiserL
 
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Re: Lost in Aikido

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
Aikido training seems to be purposed to teach martial principles that can be applied to the world of general martial situations/problems.
Greetings and agreed.
IMHO, too often we look at the technique and totally miss learning the principles that make it work/applicable.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-10-2017, 01:01 PM   #39
Trolloc63
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Re: Lost in Aikido

Good replies so far. As you may know I have re-started my Aikido training yet again. I think it is well worth it. Forgive me for not sounding like it was so. I was merely giving you a "someday" thumbnail sketch on where I could possibly take my Aikido. I know I have to put my time in, which is what I'm doing now.
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