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Old 10-20-2017, 10:30 AM   #1
Dothemo
Dojo: Canberra
Location: Canberra
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Safety of wrist locks long term

Hi Aikiweb,

Perhaps I'll be thought of as a wuss after asking this! But in my martial arts journey I've always questioned personal safety in regards to training effects on health. That's actually why I gave up Muay Thai kickboxing after truly learning the long term effects of blows to the head (no matter what the practitioners say, it's definitely not good for you! source: AIS) , anyways:

So on the mat today we were doing controls that involve Sankyo and getting some wicked wrist locks on. It is amazing how just the right angle causes pain compliance. I was wondering how to train to minimise damage, I presume you just tap fast the moment you feel pain? Also, there isn't long term damage from taking too many good wrist locks is there? Am I right in presuming that any micro damage caused gets healed by the body? Thankyou in advance for your thoughts.
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Old 10-20-2017, 12:49 PM   #2
jurasketu
Dojo: Roswell Budokan
Location: Roswell GA
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Re: Safety of wrist locks long term

Tap early and often is my motto. Even just applying wrist locks "properly" without extra mustard can really hurt - so you have to be careful and be sure to complain to your partner when they over apply. If they dismiss your concerns - don't work with them until they fix their ego. This is practice not punishment. Controls should always be applied carefully and slowly so that uke has a chance to feel the control and tap before harm.

Pain compliance style controls are likely poor training technique anyway. Untrained people won't know how to avoid the pain and will thrash around probably disrupting the control or breaking something and still escaping the control. The control should be a control - not a pain compliance.

This is really important when working with children. Youngsters' growth plates can be damaged by "ordinary" controls. Children will often refuse to tap to prove technique doesn't work. So will newbie adults. Ego needs to be set aside in favor of safety. I never apply controls to children or newbies to prove it works. They trust me to NOT hurt them. I consider it my solemn duty to not hurt them. Accidental injuries happen often enough. There is no reason to make them happen.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 10-20-2017, 02:44 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
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Re: Safety of wrist locks long term

If people are cranking me quickly I won't train with them. Period.
As Robin mentions, pain compliance is NOT the goal with a lock. Locking up, unbalancing, disrupting the person's entire structure THROUGH the lock is the goal and this is best learned SLOWLY. And with experience one can do it quickly but with enough control for there to be no damage.
This allows uke to learn to breathe and relax into the lock (and eventually maybe reverse it... :-) )

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-20-2017, 05:30 PM   #4
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Safety of wrist locks long term

The thing that hasn't been mentioned is don't resist with your arm and move your body to accommodate the technique. There have been so many times when people have complained of pain where I have countered with "why didn't you move your feet? You could have alleviated the pain, but you chose to just stand there and get hurt, you numpty."
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Old 10-21-2017, 03:32 PM   #5
sorokod
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Re: Safety of wrist locks long term

Indeed, this is usually referred to as ukemi. An important aikido skill.

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Old 10-21-2017, 08:14 PM   #6
Janet Rosen
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Re: Safety of wrist locks long term

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Indeed, this is usually referred to as ukemi. An important aikido skill.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-21-2017, 11:00 PM   #7
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Safety of wrist locks long term

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Indeed, this is usually referred to as ukemi. An important aikido skill.
I'd like to think so. You'd be amazed at the number of people that think they have good ukemi (i.e. they can do high falls, etc.,) but just stand there when a lock is applied.
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Old 10-22-2017, 03:09 AM   #8
sorokod
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Re: Safety of wrist locks long term

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I'd like to think so. You'd be amazed at the number of people that think they have good ukemi (i.e. they can do high falls, etc.,) but just stand there when a lock is applied.
Yes, this is not martial arts let alone Akido. I'd blame the teachers.

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Old 10-23-2017, 09:54 AM   #9
lbb
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Re: Safety of wrist locks long term

Long-term problems are caused by traumatic injury or repetitive injury, and there are different strategies for coping with both. It's probably safe to say that it all boils down to training appropriately and care for your body appropriately. Training appropriately means training with people, in a manner, at a speed and intensity where you can take the ukemi. If you attack hard and fast, use a lot of force and remain stiff, your partner needs to be quite skilled to respond with enough softness to prevent injury to you. If you do this with someone who doesn't know you well, particularly if you've done something to indicate that you're more advanced than you are, that's when you can get a traumatic injury. Focus on what YOU can do to train safely, that's about all you can do.
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Old 10-23-2017, 12:54 PM   #10
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
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Re: Safety of wrist locks long term

Hi Edward,

As mentioned earlier, tap early ! But to carry that a little further, DON'T WAIT for pain, but tap when your partner has control. The line between pain and injury is pretty narrow so why go there ? Also, when some techniques are applied, don't resist, but move your body to lessen the possibility of pain. I'm thinking specifically of sankyo right now - if you stand your ground, your partner can apply tremendous pressure to your hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder. If you move as he directs, the technique is far easier to live with. It's always valuable to know your partner too and to avoid someone who likes to hurt people. I have run into a couple of folks who have applied a pin and then ignored me when I tapped out and continued the pin. That has caused me to have conversations with them about their heritage, intelligence and future.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 10-24-2017, 12:52 PM   #11
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Safety of wrist locks long term

Edward,

In my opinion, pain compliance techniques are using principles that, while martially valid, are tending away from the heart of aikido. I mean this not for "fuzzy-puppy" reasons. In my training, steadily less and less of pain compliance is desired or needed to effect the necessary result, and I encourage students to work to find and feel for precisely what makes the waza work without forcing pain compliance.

The physical principles that aikido strives to apply do not require pain compliance to be effective, though they certainly can and do allow this. The application of a correct systemic torque brings the whole body into a certain reflexive manner of action, from which kuzushi flows and formal techniques then capitalize.

It isn't just twist for twist's sake -- what really works has a recognizable shape and rhythm in application that are critical. The spiral stress may be applied through the wrist, or the forearm, or the elbow, or the upper arm or the shoulder or the head and neck - or for the matter, even the legs. It can be applied more directly, with what appears to be hardly a twist at all -- (try an ankle yonkyo on a standing uke sometime . )

(If you really want to work an inquisitional level torture, though -- the pinky-lock nikkyo is infamous... Only attempt with exceeding caution and a willing and prepared uke instantly ready to slap out)

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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