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Old 08-28-2006, 06:24 PM   #51
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Thanks, it does. Generally, I think the idea has merit in terms of a standing version of kokyu-ho exercise. As far as being a more sophisticated variant, I think that will largely depend on the level of ability and sophistication of one's training partner. I guess what I was implying at was the rules or framework for such an exercise.

I also think the same can be said about doing seated kokyu-ho within a similar format. For example, even if you are pinned to the ground, you should still be able to use a kokyu path to negate the pin, redirect and uproot the person pinning you. The problem is, once you do that, most see it as you being a jerk and they try to turn it into a contest of strength, rather than learning why/how they were uprooted.

Ignatius
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Old 08-28-2006, 06:38 PM   #52
Upyu
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

David, to give you the benefit of the doubt, what constitutes "good" posture? Phsyiologically speaking.
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Old 08-28-2006, 06:42 PM   #53
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Proud ignorance, Mike. Liang Shou Yu would not agree.
I see. My own teacher wouldn't agree. It is a sad day in my life, indeed.

And your teacher, Mochizuki, left you with the impression that "ki" has to do with the attacker's attitude? David, I'm willing to bet that the problem is not Mochizuki having everything arse-over-teakettle... it's your hearing and personal ideas.



Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2006, 06:47 PM   #54
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Thanks, it does. Generally, I think the idea has merit in terms of a standing version of kokyu-ho exercise. As far as being a more sophisticated variant, I think that will largely depend on the level of ability and sophistication of one's training partner. I guess what I was implying at was the rules or framework for such an exercise.
I just meant using real kokyu/jin instead of muscle, more than I meant certain "rules", IT.
Quote:
I also think the same can be said about doing seated kokyu-ho within a similar format. For example, even if you are pinned to the ground, you should still be able to use a kokyu path to negate the pin, redirect and uproot the person pinning you. The problem is, once you do that, most see it as you being a jerk and they try to turn it into a contest of strength, rather than learning why/how they were uprooted.
Whoa.... Rob... I think he's onto your BJJ tricks!

Mike
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Old 08-28-2006, 06:50 PM   #55
Upyu
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Dammit! and I was about to get my copyright INC on them ...
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Old 08-28-2006, 07:01 PM   #56
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Not if I trademark it first :P.... would love to roll with ya man.... so far the only one I couldn't get around was a really big judoka who represented Australia back in '75...

Ignatius
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Old 08-28-2006, 07:06 PM   #57
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Not if I trademark it first :P.... would love to roll with ya man.... so far the only one I couldn't get around was a really big judoka who represented Australia back in '75...
Remember... this is the stuff that Kevin L wanted to know if it would help in a fight. He's the guy you should roll with and make a believer out of.


BTW... I already know from things Rob has said that he understands this kokyu/jin force. What Ignatius just said makes it unmistakeable that he knows exactly what it is, too. Now it gets down to who knows what variations, how well they can be used, etc. When people know, it's obvious by what they say if they do. It's also obvious when people miss basic references that they don't know or only have a vague, tenuous idea.

Regards,

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 08-28-2006 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 08-28-2006, 07:46 PM   #58
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

As a beginner, I don't understand where all this fits in. I've found in the short time I've been doing Aikido is that the only thing that can train you to be the best you can be in Aikido, is Aikido training and attitude. Never try to stop learning, understanding, and applying; that coupled with progressive relaxation. Aikido is Aikido, not Karate - Tae Kwon Do - Kung fu.. if it was something other than what it is .. it just isn't Aikido.

But that's just my 2 cents.

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Old 08-28-2006, 07:56 PM   #59
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Remember... this is the stuff that Kevin L wanted to know if it would help in a fight. He's the guy you should roll with and make a believer out of.
I HATE fighting.... and I wouldn't roll with anyone to prove anything. I would rather crawl between someone's legs than prove I can do what I can do. Crap, somebody could get hurt... and it ain't gunna be pretty...

Quote:
Now it gets down to who knows what variations, how well they can be used, etc.
Amen!

Ignatius
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Old 08-28-2006, 07:58 PM   #60
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
David, to give you the benefit of the doubt, what constitutes "good" posture? Phsyiologically speaking.
Well, I know you have a whole set of phrases and terms you like to hear, but I am not familiar with that whole lingo, so I will explain it by the nerve processes.

When a human stands, it puts pressure on the soles of his feet. The nerves send impulses to the brain, letting it know exactly where the pressure is affecting the feet. The brain sends signals back down the spinal cord to the body, directing it to adjust according to the pressure on the soles. The signals from the brain sends are physiologically correct for the human body if the body and nerve system are healthy and normal. These signals cause the entire tonus of the body to adjust in subtle ways in the toes, the feet, the ankles, the calves, the knees, the thighs, the hips, the lower back, the rib cage, the middle back, shoulders, neck, and the angle of the head on the neck.

Good posture is an organization of the body that is appropriate for the demands of the moment--or more precisely, to the demands of the milisecond. This naturally comprises the three external harmonies of hips/shoulders, knees/elbows, hands feet. Good posture is comfortable and uses optimal energy--not too little and not too much in any part of the body.

When we relax, we free the body to respond instantly to the signals that go back and forth from the pressure on the feet to the brain and back to the body, which changes the pressure on the feet, which sends new signals to the brain, which sends new impulses to the body, which changes pressure on the feet, etc., many, many times in a single second.

Bad posture is anytime we tense any part of the body without purpose. This impedes the nerve impulses and the body's response to those nerve impulses, resulting in the hips being out of line with the shoulders, the head to be at an improper angle to the neck, the lower back to be too curved or too flat. Bad posture is usually enacted by an inner image of how we think we should appear--in other words, mimicking someone else's way of standing or moving instead of feeling our body's own natural impulses to adjust to gravity and the terrain.

In other words, good posture comes from feeling how we need to adjust our position. Bad posture comes from thinking about how we ought to position ourselves or how we look to an outside observer.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-28-2006, 08:13 PM   #61
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Well, obviously, watching Tohei's "ki tests", he's not using "postural alignment" to effect what he's doing. He's establishing jin paths at will.

Incidentally, here's a quote on Misogi that I've posted before:

Misogi-kyo was one of the thirteen religious groups designated "Sect Shinto" (shuha shinto) by the Meiji government. It has never been a large movement (in 1995 it reportedly had a membership of 99,180), but, like the better-known Kurozumi-kyo, with which it shares several features, its early history and teachings vividly illustrate the religious world of late Tokugawa Japan. The group has its origins in the activities and teachings of Inoue Masakane (1790-1849), son of a samurai employed in the domain of Tatebayashi (in today's Gunma Prefecture).[13] When Inoue was eighteen,[14] he practiced Zen under the guidance of Tetsuyu Zenni, an Obaku nun in the lineage of Shoto Mokuan (1611-1648). A year later, he set off on a journey to seek the guidance of various Shinto, Confucian, and Buddhist teachers, and eventually completed a stint in the Chinese medicine school of Nagata Tokuhon (1513-1630). By the age of twenty-five, Inoue began training under the Kyoto physiognomist Mizuno Nanboku. He underwent a strict regimen, carrying out menial work for his teacher and restricting himself to simple food and dress. It was reportedly during this time that Inoue learned to regulate his breath by concentrating it below his navel. After mastering the disciplines of the Nanboku school, the young man (now twenty-eight) moved to Edo and began practicing divination (under the name Shueki). The following year he added finger-pressure therapy (shiatsu ryoho) to his growing repertoire of physical and spiritual skills.

This concentrating of his breath below the navel is pretty much what I was talking about with Dennis Hooker on the breathing thread. The idea is not "deep breathing" per se, but "concentrating" or "condensing the pressure" in the lower abdomen. It's the start of building up the "ki" that Abe Sensei is referring to with Gernot... ultimately the "pressure" goes to all parts of the body and the body is hard. However to augment that pressure source in the abdomen, they found that you can shout/yell in certain ways as you strike. It will add to the already great strength developed by ki... "ki ai".

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-28-2006, 08:21 PM   #62
Upyu
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
<snip>
In other words, good posture comes from feeling how we need to adjust our position. Bad posture comes from thinking about how we ought to position ourselves or how we look to an outside observer.
You don't have to use the Buzzwords, but honestly... I'd have to be very skeptical as to whether you knew something David. What you say is to vague. There are certain postural configurations that are adhered to and become natural which are describable if you can do these skills.
Mike and I haven't met once, and there are parts we have differences in interms of how we train these skills, perhaps how we use them, even in their quality. But there is a fundamental block that they share which should be describable. I've encountered this time and again.
Even Sam Chin who uses the "Qi" description in a more vague term on his website can explain everything (and does so) in terms of anatomical structure, as well as explain why those configurations serve their purpose in training.
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Old 08-28-2006, 08:23 PM   #63
Upyu
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It will add to the already great strength developed by ki... "ki ai".
Auuummmmm.......
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Old 08-28-2006, 08:39 PM   #64
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
I'd have to be very skeptical as to whether you knew something David. What you say is to vague. There are certain postural configurations that are adhered to and become natural which are describable if you can do these skills.
Well, that means a lot to me, believe me, coming from someone with your lengthy experience and wide range of training. It's precisely what I expected when you asked so politely. I just wanted go give you another chance to show what you're really about.

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Mike and I haven't met once, and there are parts we have differences in interms of how we train these skills, perhaps how we use them, even in their quality.
Even in what "these skills" are, I'm inclined to believe.

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
But there is a fundamental block that they share which should be describable.
So why don't you describe correctly what "good posture" is. Physiologically.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-28-2006, 08:45 PM   #65
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
This concentrating of his breath below the navel is pretty much what I was talking about with Dennis Hooker on the breathing thread. The idea is not "deep breathing" per se, but "concentrating" or "condensing the pressure" in the lower abdomen. It's the start of building up the "ki" that Abe Sensei is referring to with Gernot... ultimately the "pressure" goes to all parts of the body and the body is hard. However to augment that pressure source in the abdomen, they found that you can shout/yell in certain ways as you strike. It will add to the already great strength developed by ki... "ki ai".
Those things are part of the refinement and increase of the ki, but the fundamental nature of ki is there before any refinement is done. Kiai is "going against" the other person's ki. Babies do that, including naturally breathing into the belly. But the fundamental nature of kiai is nothing more than entering your own ki into the other person's ki with an intent to dominate him.

Aiki is the ura of kiai. It is using the ura of the other person's intent and effort to control him. It, too, can exist without movement or sound.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 08-28-2006, 09:04 PM   #66
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
T... But the fundamental nature of kiai is nothing more than entering your own ki into the other person's ki with an intent to dominate him.

It is using the ura of the other person's intent and effort to control him. It, too, can exist without movement or sound.

I guess I agree. But then how is this so different from issueing forth the ki-powered-kokyu-forcepath-derived-alignment-power-coupled-by-sinews-strengthened -through-six-harmonies-training (c) via an alignment to the opponents (unwitting) kokyu-alignment (if, it is present), and dominating him?

If kokyu is this coordinated-mind-body-(spirit) connection, (mediated by ground-path force within) and you can maintain and use this in your body -specifically against an opponent, is this not arguably 'issuing-forth' of kokyu? then called jin?

whatever.

p.s. [edit] should have tried to fit-in 'pressure-suit' somewhere up there.

pps. [edit]2 Don't you guys feel that somewhere there should be some kinda warnings to nooBs when initiating people into this mode? should there not be a thread entitled "I've learned how to cultivate and condense, and it's caused me obsessive behavior?", which is what it may or not take to become a 'madD martialArts champion' /random thought...

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 08-28-2006 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 08-28-2006, 09:10 PM   #67
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote:
the ki-powered-kokyu-forcepath-derived-alignment-power-coupled-by-sinews-strengthened -through-six-harmonies-training (c) via an alignment to the opponents (unwitting) kokyu-alignment (if, it is present), and dominating him?
Holy Cow. I will study from you, O Master of the Word.
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Old 08-28-2006, 11:04 PM   #68
Upyu
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Well, that means a lot to me, believe me, coming from someone with your lengthy experience and wide range of training. It's precisely what I expected when you asked so politely. I just wanted go give you another chance to show what you're really about.



Even in what "these skills" are, I'm inclined to believe.



So why don't you describe correctly what "good posture" is. Physiologically.
I have, check the training section
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Old 08-29-2006, 04:54 AM   #69
raul rodrigo
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Boy....and I thought Mike Sigman vs. Justin Smith was entertaining. David Orange, though, takes things to another level.
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Old 08-29-2006, 05:14 AM   #70
ian
 
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

I can't say I'm an expert on ki/chi. However I would observe the following points:

1. push-hands is not a chi development exercise per se. Chi Gung and tai-chi form are.
2. Since chi exercises can take many years to develop stronger chi (or expression of chi through power (jing?)), and also due to the link with the meridians (vital points etc) I would suggest chi (as chinese traditionalists think of it) is not purely mechanical.
3. Most aikido ki 'exercises' are actualy ki testing, not ki development i.e. if you are just teaching your body to relax, this is helping chi/ki flow, but is not aiding ki/chi accumulation - this is stored in the dan tien.

When people talk about chi they often think of 'exercises' or breathing but chi is also obtained from food. Basically, getting enough sleep, exercising regularly, and eating healthly (grains and fruit and avoiding coffee, excessive fats or sugars and alcohol) must be one of the best ways to develop chi/ki. Indeed the local chinese doctor almost always prescribes more sleep and better diet!

Therefore, in conclusion I would say that in aikido we focus on the mechanical aspects of improving chi/ki flow, but not necessarily ki/chi development. We also do very little of the conditioning that fighting tai-chi/kung-fu arts would do (e.g. lots and lots of horse stance, press-ups, repeated striking etc). I do believe aikido is a great martial art, but I also believe that are impression of ki in aikido is often misplaced and not necessarily congruent with the understanding of chi in chinese martial arts. I also believe what Ueshiba did (esp. in terms of conditioning) is rarely done by modern aikidoka.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 08-29-2006, 06:08 AM   #71
Upyu
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
2. Since chi exercises can take many years to develop stronger chi (or expression of chi through power (jing?)), and also due to the link with the meridians (vital points etc) I would suggest chi (as chinese traditionalists think of it) is not purely mechanical.
<snip>
When people talk about chi they often think of 'exercises' or breathing but chi is also obtained from food. Basically, getting enough sleep, exercising regularly, and eating healthly (grains and fruit and avoiding coffee, excessive fats or sugars and alcohol) must be one of the best ways to develop chi/ki. Indeed the local chinese doctor almost always prescribes more sleep and better diet!
Just a couple of thought before I head off to bed:

2. I don't think it takes years to develop this to a practical point of useability. But, you can continue to develop and strengthen it for years once you understand how to train it. In fact I think a lot of the effort by the "old masters" went into finding "how" to train it. Once they understood how to train it, it didn't take them very long to start trashing people. Note, when I say not very long I mean like 5 years plus for them to start using it with great efficiency. The longer they go at it, the better they get at it.

About the Food-chi part, that's a different paradigm and I wouldn't get that confused with the bodyskills we're talking about, though I think Mike could comment more on that.

And no, most people don't condition their bodies to the degree that Ueshiba or other old-timers did. But they weren't doing it to run a triathalon...think about "what" they were conditioning
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Old 08-29-2006, 07:40 AM   #72
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Mike,
I second your first few posts (haven't read all of them yet) on Tai Chi push hands.
The head Aikido instructor, with whom I attend 1 class a week, has a leaning toward more of that type philosophy (how to develop soft/internal/etc.) - can't explain very well, you'd have to see for yourself. He was a student of Peter Ralston for a time, if you've ever heard of him.
I do enjoy the other classes, but they are more physics or strength oriented. Just what comes out in those classes.
I'm fortunate to have a Tai Chi school that does push hands class (cooperatively) once a week.
Seems the only way for me to grow in this skill is to practice as much as I can on my own. Even practicing the form 15 minutes per day should show improvement over years.
Everyone learns differently, though.
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Old 08-29-2006, 07:42 AM   #73
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
I have, check the training section
Why don't you adhere to your own descriptions of "good posture," then?

David

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Old 08-29-2006, 07:53 AM   #74
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
2. Since chi exercises can take many years to develop stronger chi (or expression of chi through power (jing?)), and also due to the link with the meridians (vital points etc) I would suggest chi (as chinese traditionalists think of it) is not purely mechanical.

When people talk about chi they often think of 'exercises' or breathing but chi is also obtained from food. Basically, getting enough sleep, exercising regularly, and eating healthly (grains and fruit and avoiding coffee, excessive fats or sugars and alcohol) must be one of the best ways to develop chi/ki. Indeed the local chinese doctor almost always prescribes more sleep and better diet!
Ian, especially on those two points, you are exactly right. What I've been grappling with Mike and Rob John about is their mechanical belief that chi doesn't even exist except when you do those mechanical structural things. Mike has even said that ki comes from the fascia of the muscle. But what you have stated is the correct view, according to the Chinese, including Liang Shou-Yu, as stated clearly in "Emei Baguazhang" and, I'm sure, elsewhere.

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
Therefore, in conclusion I would say that in aikido we focus on the mechanical aspects of improving chi/ki flow, but not necessarily ki/chi development. We also do very little of the conditioning that fighting tai-chi/kung-fu arts would do (e.g. lots and lots of horse stance, press-ups, repeated striking etc).
Those two statements seem contradictory. the horse stance and other development exercises (and Rob John's vaunted Aunkai) are all mechanical forms of ki development.

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
I do believe aikido is a great martial art, but I also believe that are impression of ki in aikido is often misplaced and not necessarily congruent with the understanding of chi in chinese martial arts. I also believe what Ueshiba did (esp. in terms of conditioning) is rarely done by modern aikidoka.
Correct on those counts except that I believe the aikido/Japanese approach is simply a different way to develop the ki/qi. However, the Chinese way (as your local Chinese doctor describes it--not the fanatical mechanical training) is closer to the root and therefore more natural and therefore correct.

As for what Ueshiba did for conditioning, I think that farming/gardening is the missing element much more than any mechanistic, repetitive "training" through exercises and conditioning. In the West, we tend to "overshoot" by doing too much unnecessary "conditioning" and also too much unnatural stuff such as driving, sitting in air conditioning, watching TV and failing to walk and interact with the natural world.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 08-29-2006, 07:57 AM   #75
David Orange
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Re: Aikido Supplemented with Push-Hands?

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
About the Food-chi part, that's a different paradigm and I wouldn't get that confused with the bodyskills we're talking about, though I think Mike could comment more on that.
You've got it exactly backward, Rob. You have confused "body skills" with ki/qi and its development. You think that the mechanistic exercises are the beginning, but they are only good once you have made a firm connection to the root of natural ki. Doing it your way results in "trashing people". Doing it the other way makes for a natural mind and a healthy life, which is a life-long process.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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