Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-30-2010, 02:21 PM   #1
Alex Lee
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8
Offline
Finding Jin in the weirdest places.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1

Isosceles Stance = Jin + Suit (if bit crude version).
Weaver Stance = Typical stiff forward stance.

For those of you who dont shoot, this article may not make any sense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2011, 09:55 PM   #2
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 697
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding Jin in the weirdest places.

I think I've been doing Weaver "wrong" but with jin (as I understand it) and shooting just fine.

In a "real" gun fight mental conditioning and clamness under stress are way more important than stance or technique. Being adaptable and firing from cover often obviate many technical elements.

Given that the vast majority of LEO shootings take place at very close range the cirical elements of situational awareness (to 'get the drop'), mental clarity and calmness along with dumb luck offer the dominant factors well before technical items even come to the table.

The very few times I faced a firearm it was over before there was anytime to think. Over even before any shots could be fired.

More to the point I don't think jin can be infered from the outward appearence of the stance but instead from the intent of the shooter.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 12:02 PM   #3
JangChoe
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding Jin in the weirdest places.

I think the stance is mostly used for competitive shooting. In seeing videos of various IPSC, IDPA matches, I see a lot of isosceles stances.

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I think I've been doing Weaver "wrong" but with jin (as I understand it) and shooting just fine.

In a "real" gun fight mental conditioning and clamness under stress are way more important than stance or technique. Being adaptable and firing from cover often obviate many technical elements.

Given that the vast majority of LEO shootings take place at very close range the cirical elements of situational awareness (to 'get the drop'), mental clarity and calmness along with dumb luck offer the dominant factors well before technical items even come to the table.

The very few times I faced a firearm it was over before there was anytime to think. Over even before any shots could be fired.

More to the point I don't think jin can be infered from the outward appearence of the stance but instead from the intent of the shooter.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 02:29 PM   #4
Alex Lee
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8
Offline
Re: Finding Jin in the weirdest places.

As Jang mentioned. The article clearly states that they were talking about target match situations.

Quite interesting that when he switches to iso stance his shooting got better. Even though hes been a weaver stance shooter for years, practices martial arts AND been told by other martial artist that weaver is the most stable.... hmmm...

Iso stance must rely on some type of grounding or jin type force. You do not have a supporting leg that can absorb the recoil of a gun.

I have a terrible time putting my thoughts on paper so I'll post some visual reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVS55Z2O9nc
His feet is parallel to the target. Meaning he doesnt have a "back brace" leg to resist the recoil. Notice that he's even leaning back while shooting. Which means he doesn't even have skeletal structure to resist the recoil. For those on the qijin list this is sorta like Forrest's stupid jin trick video where he push someone "off balance" (drunken boxingish part).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHI8L...eature=related
Not as good but more extreme version. .50 AE recoil is quite strong. Yet this guy who is not very strong looking fires double tap on one leg and maintains his balance. Yes his shoulder moves back a bit, but its quite understandable considering his conditioning. Most folks would have fallen backwards on the first shot.

Heck I see more grounding and jin in these videos then in some "internal" arts videos on you tube...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 05:22 PM   #5
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding Jin in the weirdest places.

Quote:
Alex Lee wrote: View Post
Heck I see more grounding and jin in these videos then in some "internal" arts videos on you tube...
I think you could find a similar thing in a lot of people who do certain types of work. But isn't this a one-directional skill? I wouldn't think it would enable them to ground a push from the rear, for instance, though they might be able to shoot toward the rear and balance the force.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 07:53 PM   #6
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Finding Jin in the weirdest places.

Quote:
Alex Lee wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVS55Z2O9nc
His feet is parallel to the target. Meaning he doesnt have a "back brace" leg to resist the recoil. Notice that he's even leaning back while shooting. Which means he doesn't even have skeletal structure to resist the recoil.
The guy who put up the clip calls it the "lazy" iso stance because of the leaning.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 08:43 PM   #7
JangChoe
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding Jin in the weirdest places.

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
The guy who put up the clip calls it the "lazy" iso stance because of the leaning.
Yeah a lean back in shooting is just a bad stance. A lot of beginners seem to want to lean back when to shoot for some reason. It's better to shift forward to your yong quan point and not lean back.

Anyway, that dude was shooting a FNP 9, which is only a 9mm shot through a full sized pistol. There wouldn't be much recoil in that. He could've held it with one arm, be totally out of alignment, and could still handle the recoil. His accuracy would suck though.

I actually have an old video of me shooting a .45 pistol on facebook. I had that stupid leaned back stance. I sure didn't have jin, but even with the .45, I could handle that recoil in my crappy, leaned-back isosceles stance. Nori shot next to me in the same video. She had a much better isosceles stance and handled the recoil much better. (but she was shooting a 9mm).
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 09:51 AM   #8
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 697
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding Jin in the weirdest places.

Quote:
Jang Choe wrote: View Post
I think the stance is mostly used for competitive shooting. In seeing videos of various IPSC, IDPA matches, I see a lot of isosceles stances.
Quote:
Alex Lee wrote: View Post
As Jang mentioned. The article clearly states that they were talking about target match situations.
I acknolwedge my reading comprehension could use some bolstering but the author, to my reading, of the article clearly presenting the proposition that the iso stance needs to come out of sport experience into the 'combat' arena. If he is really interested in good shooting under duress I suggest adding duress and distractions to the shooting course - like extremely loud music, folks shooting back with BB/paintballs, etc and folks whacking the shooter about the head and neck with shinai or stiffened pool noodles. A seasoned DI screaming 'constructive criticism' loudly in ones ear at the same time seems not too bad either.

If anyone claims to be able to see jin and suit then my BS meter goes offscale. Since the SJT were mentioned I offer that if one is well schooled in the qijin then one can easily perform SJT but just becasue one can do a few SJT does not mean one is using jin, suit or qijin stuffs.IHTBF anyone?

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 11:32 AM   #9
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Finding Jin in the weirdest places.

Quote:
Jang Choe wrote: View Post
I actually have an old video of me shooting a .45 pistol on facebook. I had that stupid leaned back stance. I sure didn't have jin, but even with the .45, I could handle that recoil in my crappy, leaned-back isosceles stance.
The Wing Chun icon Yip Man is not in an isosceles stance, but the "lean" in some Wing Chun stances seems to be another example of "finding jin in the weirdest places":



  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 12:59 PM   #10
Alex Lee
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 8
Offline
Re: Finding Jin in the weirdest places.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I think you could find a similar thing in a lot of people who do certain types of work. But isn't this a one-directional skill? I wouldn't think it would enable them to ground a push from the rear, for instance, though they might be able to shoot toward the rear and balance the force.

Thanks.

David
Yep you are right it is one-directional. Its not like I'm expecting 6 direction from some average joe. But its amazing that an average joe who most likely has no martial arts practice ended up using a stance thats very similar to a correct jin stance.

But it would not surprise me if you told him to shoot backwards from that stance, they'll be able to figure out how in few tries.

This stuff is very very basic and crude jin like things. But its interesting to see them out of a martial arts context. For those folks that have jin this is like telling people the sun rises every morning. But for those you dont it can be use as another way to look at the jin or grounding forces.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 09:22 AM   #11
InternalPowerSac
Dojo: Neijia
Location: Sacramento, CA
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 19
United_States
Offline
Re: Finding Jin in the weirdest places.

You inspired this blog post Alex, thanks for making me think some more about my own experience.

http://internalpowersac.blogspot.com...n-all-odd.html

  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Finding a dojo - the modern way JJF General 2 08-19-2010 02:21 PM
Finding our own way in and out of Aikido BAP Spiritual 80 03-24-2009 07:42 PM
finding more students p00kiethebear General 24 01-31-2006 04:35 PM
Article: One of Those Places by Paul Schweer AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 02-14-2005 05:32 PM
Article: The Adventures of Ron Dorey: Finding the Secret by Ross Robertson AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 12-30-2004 12:35 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:46 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate