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Old 08-28-2008, 09:58 AM   #151
Flintstone
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I don't know why you separated any one thing out from the rest of what they were doing as irresponsible and in-effective. Unfortunately, I watched it. I would have pointed out 0:00 to 2:28
You know even the sutemi at 1:57 is so open, and his position so poor that a competent guy would just bend with it and land on him not go over him. Kata or drills are fine but they are meant to instill proper placement and timing at the very least. So even in a staid and static demo the pieces are right.
Live...much of that can go out the window. So if you can't do it in a kata-good luck when Murphy steps up to greet you..
Guys... this video of the kata is not performed by top exponents of the art.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:02 AM   #152
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Sure he had a good reason but, are you sure he wanted to teach takedown defense?, are you sure nothing was lost in transmission?. Sadly he's not with us, we can't ask him, but we can spar (like he did, and a lot) and see if something is missing.
It is always something lost in transmission. And you are absolutely right about the sparring part.

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
What's the purpose of the kata, then?
Still not sure about that .

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I hope some day mid september. I'll pm you when I know the date. Take care.
See you then. Stay cool!
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:36 AM   #153
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Guys... this video of the kata is not performed by top exponents of the art.
I think that was exacty the point...he...was making. And it's a good case for there being far less video, far less teachers, and far less writing as to technical know how.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:48 PM   #154
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Agreed. That is the problem with kata of this nature. It becomes so disconnected from the mechanics of reality that the reasons for doing it become completely lossed in translation. It then becomes so lost that only the "top exponents" are the ones that can do it properly.

Ironically, it plays to their advantage (intentionally or not) as it guarantees them students that will strive to "one day be as good at it as them".

Certainly this video represents an extreme on one end of the spectrum of kata and aliveness. You could do the same kata and incorporate a great deal of aliveness in it and still accomplish the same things, but you would have guys with much less experience doing it pretty darn good (of course always room for improvement) but it would not be a requirement to be a "top exponent" only an average guy.

think about that logic. Those are pretty darn basic things going on there. Controlled, methodical, predictable, and slow....what is so skilled about it that would require years of experience?

Not much....other than the communication process that is needed between the two participants because they have an artificial relationship between the two of them because it is so "unalive". That process WOULD take two "top exponents" that have worked together for years so that they could move very easily together and look good as they did it.

Add aliveness to it, and it requires much less communication between the two as they respond to the dynamic of the situation.

This is the very reason it is easy for me to walk into a BJJ dojo anywhere in the world and immediately be able to "communicate" physically and speak the same language.

Not the same in aikido dojos. If I am visiting one, I make sure that I understand who is running it, what style they are doing, and I have a general feel and idea of where they are coming from.

Not that there is anything wrong with the differences in approach and timing etc....only that when you factor out the aliveness, you have to realize that you are complicating the communication and transmission process tremendously. That needs to be considered.

I think it is why we have all grown to believe that it takes 20 years to learn aikido. Yes, it might take 20 years to learn Aikido (tm), depending on your brand...I agree.

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Old 08-28-2008, 02:59 PM   #155
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Compare that video to this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wsQE6K3a6s

What differences do you perceive?

Or for that matter, this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvxJYM_LsHw

Last edited by DonMagee : 08-28-2008 at 03:05 PM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-28-2008, 03:23 PM   #156
MM
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I had a chance to work with someone who had a background in Judo. Didn't ask the rank and it had been some years since he'd studied. Take that for what you will.

Anyway, I wanted to show him the stability with aiki in a judo format. So, I have him grab me and try to throw me. He can't enter to get a throw. (If you've seen my vids on youtube, you can see how big Brian is in them. The judo guy is bigger than Brian.) He tries a couple more times and can't enter. Then, on one, I slip in my intent and he gets inside to get a fit. But then he stops. He didn't think it was going to work. It might have and it might not have, but we didn't get to find out.

So, I say, no, you should go for it. I purposely let him do the same thing again, but this time once he's got the fit and starting for the throw, I have my structure back. He can't throw. He's trying a throw like uki goshi (sorry, my judo is bad so I'm not exactly sure). All the time, I'm not trying to *do* anything to him at all, just use structure to not get thrown.

So, I tell him, let me try something different. We go back to the same type throw and I tell him to do his best to throw me. As he tries, I get heavy. (Um, hard to describe. It's like my body is covered in chain mail where the links are all spread out and I draw them all together into a tightly linked mesh with no holes while my feet are anchored to the ground -- so it brings me downwards.) He stops quickly because it's like I weighed a whole lot more than what I should have.

Then, I showed him how to use structure in his arms to not let someone break them. It was a different feel in his body between his normal self and his trying to use structure. More solid, but still a lot of muscle. Course, the muscle part goes away after time. He seemed to have fun with it.

But it's definitely nice to see aikido work in a non-aikido environment. Not saying I have anything perfected, mind you. Just that the training for aiki is making a difference -- one I'm really beginning to see after only a year and a half (technically 1 year 5 months). Cool.
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:31 PM   #157
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

I can't tell you how happy I am to hear you say that Mark. What is particularly fulfilling for me is remembering back to our first meeting after all the arguments with people here about this training making you all but unthrowable-and you being so surpised at feeling it from me. Now here you are just starting to do it yourself. I told you then that anyone can do this if they train.
It is my hope, that we can imagine a day when aiki re-introduced and trained -back into aikido- will produce aikido people that are so profound, so incredible that grapplers are going to look at them and say... "how do I learn that?"
Further that an Aikidoka's punches will be devestating, all while their controls and body movements are hard to avoid, and while being all but unthrowable-will be planting other MA for trying. One, by one, by one. you guy's are going to change Aikido and it will become a force to be reckoned with. With the choice- to not cause harm but control agression, being a very real choice,

I can't wait to see all these guys in three or four years...ten. And mores the point, what's going to happen when these Japanese Shihan start feeling these Americans.
The power of Aiki, ya gotta love it.
Good on ya Mark. I hope the travel and hard work and sacrifice continues to pay off.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:50 PM   #158
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I can't tell you how happy I am to hear you say that Mark. What is particularly fulfilling for me is remembering back to our first meeting after all the arguments with people here about this training making you all but unthrowable-and you being so surpised at feeling it from me. Now here you are just starting to do it yourself. I told you then that anyone can do this if they train.
Thanks and yeah, I remember.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It is my hope, that we can imagine a day when aiki re-introduced and trained -back into aikido- will produce aikido people that are so profound, so incredible that grapplers are going to look at them and say... "how do I learn that?"
Further that an Aikidoka's punches will be devestating, all while their controls and body movements are hard to avoid, and while being all but unthrowable-will be planting other MA for trying. One, by one, by one. you guy's are going to change Aikido and it will become a force to be reckoned with. With the choice- to not cause harm but control agression, being a very real choice,
The next 5 years are going to get very interesting.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I can't wait to see all these guys in three or four years...ten. And mores the point, what's going to happen when these Japanese Shihan start feeling these Americans.
The power of Aiki, ya gotta love it.
Good on ya Mark. I hope the travel and hard work and sacrifice continues to pay off.
In Aiki News Issue 34 in an interview with Saito, Saito states this:
"I think Aikido will be reimported to Japan in the future." It's an interesting section. While he doesn't really mean what we're talking about specifically, he's pretty close.

So far, it's all been more than worth it. Can't imagine another year. Should be fun ... amidst all the hard work, travel, and sacrifice.

Mark
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:19 PM   #159
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Sounds like all the pro-MMA/Bjj are having a great time pointing out what is all wrong with Aikido because of one Youtube clip. Each is his own.

But, the original question and much of this thread reminds me of a South Park episode "Make Love Not War Craft." Here is the similarity, it seems there are a number of MMA/Bjj that are wrapped up in this like in the fantasy MMORPG of South Park where the 30 something year old with no life and a candidate for a mental health study ( here is where there are similarities I talked about) renegade player builds a character that is intended to be invincible. That is what the original ( trolling - but entertaining) question is build on fantasy.

As the question assumed in the view of the MMA/Bjj the Aikidoka does fall and is submitted. So if the Aikidoka doesn't fall then it would be fair to say the grappler in the question was used like a mop to clean the floor by the geeky wimpy Aikidoka.

Since the question is full of assumptions, let’s assume the grappler was a woman between 21-25 years of ages no more then 50 kgs. And she is an FHM model or Sports Illustrated swimsuit model. And the Aikidoka was a 20-30 something single male. Do you think the Aikidoka isn't going to fall? Well of course he does, and the fight is on as the romance fantasy novel stuff chugs on. Then afterward they both get a latte together discussing their performances on the net.

I don't not know why there are a number of MMA/Bjj caught up in the fantasy that was the original question like that South Park character who built an invincible MMORPG character which was defeated by the "lesser" skilled players. I don't get it why it is an obsession with MMA/Bjj. The proof is in the number of posts and threads here and else where. So denial is mute.

I didn't get in the martial arts with the single-minded goal to prove to the world and other arts my testosterone is secure. Well to cockfight. If I wanted to do that, I would instead learn arts that are quick and easy to learn work hard at it and combine them. First I would take backyard fighting tactics, like sitting on top of someone and punching them, etc. Boxing, wrestling's principles of balance and escape techniques, some judo principles, arm bars, and chokes the stuff before 1964 Olympics ( I am told ), and get on the "juice." Then go to a MMA/Bjj place like Mike Fooks ' place and tear 'em up. Or skip the juice, put in half the effort into physically learning the things, read up on all the arts, and troll other arts. You know get people talking.

But I am not that way. I have no reason or purpose to prove in a cyclone fenced or roped off ring I have more testosterone then the other guy, or on the net. I prefer to never have to use my Aikido. Because the reality that has never been mentioned in this thread is that physical contact does results in injury of both fighters. In the original question it was assumed the grappler didn't get a scratch. That isn't true. Not every Aikidoka has the same mentality of defending themselves. The natural instinct to protect yourself from harm is strong under a high pressure situation. In those situations you don't know what a person is capable of under that pressure. So if the Aikidoka did fall and the natural instincts kicked in etc. and felt under a high pressure to survive the grappler may not be rolling on the ground with a few less body parts. Because we assume the grappler and the Aikidoka to both be male in the question that is another of many flaws with the question .

I think it can be said there are a number of MMA/Bjj also not in touch with reality. Really. Of all the MMA and Bjj who train how many are good vs. how many think they are good. I know. It is easy. The few who make it in the pro venues, and even less are those who are the top fighters in those venues. Everyone else is MMORPG. I say this because really a mirror needs to be held up to many MMA/Bjj who trash talk and troll Aikido. Aikido has had mirror held up to us for years.

I was told in the 1964 Olympics Judo went from a martial art to a sport. Due to that, it has deteriorated, less effective then it was with all the rules and scoring etc. MMA is on that very same path ever since NHB went commercial to MMA. Bjj faded out losing the spot light to the MMA fighters who made fights more exciting, etc. But with all the shift in rules, regulations and more rules etc. to come, and the exploitation and commercialization, and the marketing to keep it a entertaining Pro Wrestling comes to mind with TapouT, etc. it will choke MMA out. MMA will lose out to the next trend. as Bjj lost out to MMA. In time, it will be like Judo and wrestling now. I feel for you guys.

Last edited by Buck : 08-28-2008 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:13 PM   #160
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
All the time, I'm not trying to *do* anything to him at all, just use structure to not get thrown.
...As he tries, I get heavy. (Um, hard to describe. It's like my body is covered in chain mail where the links are all spread out and I draw them all together into a tightly linked mesh with no holes while my feet are anchored to the ground -- so it brings me downwards.) He stops quickly because it's like I weighed a whole lot more than what I should have.
That sounds very much like when I'm extending my ki/intention to the "center of the Earth." My mental image is often of filling up...as with iron, and I become much more difficult to move...when successful .
Quote:
...But it's definitely nice to see aikido work in a non-aikido environment. Not saying I have anything perfected, mind you. Just that the training for aiki is making a difference -- one I'm really beginning to see after only a year and a half (technically 1 year 5 months). Cool.
I hear ya! I highly value the extremely few moments I've had in which my Aikido training has kicked in (and worked as described) that wasn't also on the Aikidojo mat. It's crucial to find and train with folks who have a deep understanding of aiki (and can transmit that understanding reasonably well), particularly if you're trying to learn Aikido for self-defense or other physically demanding activities.
Specifically regarding grapplers, I've only had a smidgen of experience with jujutsu and other grappling folks. I was able to escape a technique better than I was able to perform one, but I was also able to spend far less energy than him when I was resisting his efforts (the most notable of my few meetings).
I think that if someone wants to learn Aikido in the hopes of learning to defend against anyone, let alone a grappler, they should think of it in terms of its principles. Techniques drive the system, but the principles (which ki exercises are designed to illustrate) drive the techniques...thus for this system to work it's techniques must be based upon the use of sound principles (and sound exercises/drills). Once principles are the foundation of movement, technique is circumstantial and almost happens of its own accord...in my limited experience at least.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 08-28-2008 at 07:19 PM.

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Old 08-28-2008, 08:14 PM   #161
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
with all the shift in rules, regulations and more rules etc. to come, and the exploitation and commercialization, and the marketing to keep it a entertaining Pro Wrestling comes to mind with TapouT, etc. it will choke MMA out. MMA will lose out to the next trend. as Bjj lost out to MMA. In time, it will be like Judo and wrestling now. I feel for you guys.
Dude! Really?!?! Is it possible for an art to "lose out"? How exactly did BJJ "lose out" to MMA? Aren't there still plenty of people all over the world who enjoy practicing BJJ? Don't alot of people practice BJJ and MMA simultaneously? Are they traitors? Did Greco-roman wrestling "lose out" to Hulk Hogan?

Maybe even a better question: Did Jiu-Jitsu lose out to "Brazilian" Jiu-jitsu? If so, why are people all over the place happily enjoying training it? Didn't anyone have the courtesy to tell the poor saps that it lost out?

Look, if anybody takes time out of their life to "bash" something on the internet, doesn't that say alot more about them, than it does about whatever they're talking about?

Just relax, Don't take it personally. If Aikido works, great. But it stands on it's own, it doesn't need anybody to come to it's rescue.

W.

P.s. - Hotdogs totally lost out to hamburgers.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

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Old 08-28-2008, 08:39 PM   #162
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
William Prusner wrote: View Post
Dude! Really?!?! Did Greco-roman wrestling "lose out" to Hulk Hogan?
Yep.

Quote:
Maybe even a better question: Did Jiu-Jitsu lose out to "Brazilian" Jiu-jitsu? If so, why are people all over the place happily enjoying training it? Didn't anyone have the courtesy to tell the poor saps that it lost out?
Gee...I don't hear Gracie anymore, like in the 1990s, maybe Matt Huges pounded that last nail in that coffin. It's MMA now and not Bjj that is hot.

Quote:
Look, if anybody takes time out of their life to "bash" something on the internet, doesn't that say alot more about them, than it does about whatever they're talking about?
Thats my point!

Quote:
Just relax, Don't take it personally. If Aikido works, great. But it stands on it's own, it doesn't need anybody to come to it's rescue.

W.

P.s. - Hotdogs totally lost out to hamburgers.
Is that Vegan or Pork, or Chicken, or Turkey, or Beef or any type of combination hotdogs?

Last edited by Buck : 08-28-2008 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:49 PM   #163
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

ummm....you do know bjj is a core component of mma right?

And you're completely wrong about it only being the upper echelons that are effective. there's a reason for the saying "blue belt beat the world, puple belt beat blue belt"

It's interesting to me that you like to talk about "fantasy" when it's clear that you've never set foot in a bjj or mma school. So you make assumptions about testosterone levels and all sorts of other stuff which are simply not true.

So my question is - if the people you are debating with have expereince of both Aikido and BJJ/MMA, and you have experience only of aikido but are imagining what the other side is like - which of the two sides is engaging in fantasy?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:53 PM   #164
DH
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Excellent points Michael.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:48 PM   #165
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
ummm....you do know bjj is a core component of mma right?
Ya. Know, something down deep inside said someone is going to say that. I figured it was obvious that Bjj is used by many pro fighters, but not all, and not completely. Allot of what Bjj is, is judo and classical jujitsu any way. It is the Pro fighters that dictate to the amatures the sport of MMA. I wouldn't say a core componet. I would say early influence. Have you seen pro venues lately.

Quote:
And you're completely wrong about it only being the upper echelons that are effective. there's a reason for the saying "blue belt beat the world, puple belt beat blue belt"
And where does black belt and BB levels come into play? Blue belt isn't the new black belt, is it?

Quote:
So my question is - if the people you are debating with have expereince of both Aikido and BJJ/MMA, and you have experience only of aikido but are imagining what the other side is like - which of the two sides is engaging in fantasy?
That has been played. Scratch it. It has nothing to do with the original question or my opinion of it. I can't see why it is so important to defend the original question that is full of assumptions, it is fantasy, flaws, and dang right unrealistic. So why do you and so many others support it. Why do you and other fail to realize that if Aikido isn't about fighting for money in a fenced ring called a sport. Well a human cock-fight with fans and cheerleaders, and a large fantasy following, I am surprise there isn't something on MMA like other sports like fantasy baseball. Hey that is it! Maybe you start something like that I think it would work for you guys.

You have to understand I didn't start a thread that said, what would a grappler do if the grappler throws a punched at an Aikidoka say based on Dan Harden's teaching on how to improve or do Aiki. And the Aikidoka was a male of 105kg and 195 cm talls, and the grappler a woman half the Aikidoka's weight and frame, and 160 cm tall.

Last edited by Buck : 08-28-2008 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:18 PM   #166
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Also, I don't have any reason were I need to defend Aikido. I have nothing at stake. I don't need to convince or win people over. More people in the world do Aikido then MMA and Bjj combined.

I don't have to convince people who would win in a fantasy scenario fight via a "What if question."

The world isn't full of people who want to beat he other senseless and look to Aikido for all the other things it offers.

Not everyone can be the champion, there is only on champion at a time. So what are then the other people in MMA and what are all the other people doing in MMA if they not the champion or pros? The best fighters are the pros who are already pros. That means everyone else in the sport is doing what, working in restaurants in Hollywood telling everyone they are going to be the next big star once they are discovered?

That is why I do Aikido, because I am not waiting in the wings on the net for my big break to be a champion that will never come, because I am not good enough and don't realize that I will not stand in the middle of the ring and hear my name and the word Champion in the same sentence as my arm is raised. Some people still cling to that fantasy. Honestly, allot of people are not facing that reality they will never be pros, they are drinking the hype Kool-Aid. And the other reality is in MMA everyone loses to someone, at least at this point of the entertainment game.

I don't enjoy beating the bloody someone for the sake of entertainment. I never could. I hope I never have to. I hope I will die with the luxury of knowing Aikido was a journey and I got so much from it, it enriched my life, and it always stayed an art for me. I don't live by the sword, and I don't want to die by the sword. That is why I do Aikido, and because I realized along time ago that it is the politician with the pen that sends the solider into combat. And the only reward for the solider is the glory and his life. The politician gets the spoils of power and war without ever having to step on a battlefield. It is the pen that is the greatest martial technique. The politician is the greatest and most powerfull warrior.

Last edited by Buck : 08-28-2008 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:51 PM   #167
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

This is one of the best trolls I've read in a long time. My wife actually came in to ask why I was laughing so hard. You sir are genius. I started off thinking you were just messing around, then i realized you were actually serious about this crap you are spouting. I'm sorry for being rude, and maybe I'll get in trouble, but that is what this is. As this could very well be my last post here at aikiweb (due to the content). I'm going to make one last shot at this and just be brutally honest.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Sounds like all the pro-MMA/Bjj are having a great time pointing out what is all wrong with Aikido because of one Youtube clip. Each is his own.
And here I thought my clips were proving a point that kata even in alive sports does the same damn thing. I guess I was just being blinding by the massive testosterone running though my 155 pound body. I have a question for you, instead of griping about it, do you have any physical evidence to examine? No, then you might as well try to convince me unicorns exist.
Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
But, the original question and much of this thread reminds me of a South Park episode "Make Love Not War Craft." Here is the similarity, it seems there are a number of MMA/Bjj that are wrapped up in this like in the fantasy MMORPG of South Park where the 30 something year old with no life and a candidate for a mental health study ( here is where there are similarities I talked about) renegade player builds a character that is intended to be invincible. That is what the original ( trolling - but entertaining) question is build on fantasy.
Please provide proof again, or just freaking stop writing. I would accept a picture of you in a bjj or judo club engaged in sparing. Bonus points if you are actually not getting tossed like a ragdoll.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
As the question assumed in the view of the MMA/Bjj the Aikidoka does fall and is submitted. So if the Aikidoka doesn't fall then it would be fair to say the grappler in the question was used like a mop to clean the floor by the geeky wimpy Aikidoka.
No the question is how does the aikido person stop the takedown? More so than just the technique, how do you actually train to do it? My assumption is you sat on the mat and talked about extending ki and moving off the line of attack, then you made some gay jokes about bjj and went went out for pancakes. When a guy in a 'sport' says this works, did you know he actually did it for real?? Hard to believe? Go find out for yourself. Do some research.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Since the question is full of assumptions, let's assume the grappler was a woman between 21-25 years of ages no more then 50 kgs. And she is an FHM model or Sports Illustrated swimsuit model. And the Aikidoka was a 20-30 something single male. Do you think the Aikidoka isn't going to fall? Well of course he does, and the fight is on as the romance fantasy novel stuff chugs on. Then afterward they both get a latte together discussing their performances on the net.
I know a few little girls who would kick the ass of most guys here in a ring, even if we were fighting our hardest. I'm sure there are even some on the web willing to travel just to do it.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I don't not know why there are a number of MMA/Bjj caught up in the fantasy that was the original question like that South Park character who built an invincible MMORPG character which was defeated by the "lesser" skilled players. I don't get it why it is an obsession with MMA/Bjj. The proof is in the number of posts and threads here and else where. So denial is mute.
Hmmmm........maybe the obsession is because people are seeing a rise in popularity and want to understand what is happening. Sadly there are people like you who would rather put Galileo to the sword rather then run the same test to see the sun does not revolve around the earth (yes I know Galileo was not killed, but they tried to).

The difference between people like you and the people who 'defend' alive training (yes they don't defend bjj/mma/judo/whatever they defend the training method. Is that these people have evidence. More on this later.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I didn't get in the martial arts with the single-minded goal to prove to the world and other arts my testosterone is secure. Well to cockfight. If I wanted to do that, I would instead learn arts that are quick and easy to learn work hard at it and combine them. First I would take backyard fighting tactics, like sitting on top of someone and punching them, etc. Boxing, wrestling's principles of balance and escape techniques, some judo principles, arm bars, and chokes the stuff before 1964 Olympics ( I am told ), and get on the "juice." Then go to a MMA/Bjj place like Mike Fooks ' place and tear 'em up. Or skip the juice, put in half the effort into physically learning the things, read up on all the arts, and troll other arts. You know get people talking.
You can see how I got confused and thought you were joking. You just said that if you wanted to actually quickly learn to fight you would train MMA and do illegal drugs. I can see though you have already selected your second option. Probably a good choice.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post

But I am not that way. I have no reason or purpose to prove in a cyclone fenced or roped off ring I have more testosterone then the other guy, or on the net. I prefer to never have to use my Aikido. Because the reality that has never been mentioned in this thread is that physical contact does results in injury of both fighters. In the original question it was assumed the grappler didn't get a scratch. That isn't true. Not every Aikidoka has the same mentality of defending themselves. The natural instinct to protect yourself from harm is strong under a high pressure situation. In those situations you don't know what a person is capable of under that pressure. So if the Aikidoka did fall and the natural instincts kicked in etc. and felt under a high pressure to survive the grappler may not be rolling on the ground with a few less body parts. Because we assume the grappler and the Aikidoka to both be male in the question that is another of many flaws with the question .
Ahh, the deadly instincts. If that is all you have, why bother training at all. I suppose from under the mount you can gouge eyes, or oh oh oh rip the grion!!! yea, the groin, so accessible during those brief moments of consciousness while your face turns to mash potatoes and ketchup.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I think it can be said there are a number of MMA/Bjj also not in touch with reality. Really. Of all the MMA and Bjj who train how many are good vs. how many think they are good. I know. It is easy. The few who make it in the pro venues, and even less are those who are the top fighters in those venues. Everyone else is MMORPG. I say this because really a mirror needs to be held up to many MMA/Bjj who trash talk and troll Aikido. Aikido has had mirror held up to us for years.
See again, proving you have done no research. Had you bothered to go to a school that trained with aliveness you would see that most students who have trained the same amount of time have the same level of skills. In the case of bjj, by the time these skills are a purple belt, you are basically 100% screwed if you are not an expert striker or have a significant alive grappling background. This is EXACTLY what the alive training method is about; consistently building the same skill sets and skill levels in a large group of people. You put the pro fighters at a disservice. You think that is the goal. Pro fighters are a cream above the sport. Better then the black belts. It does not take a pro fighter to be good. This s not like what I assume you are told by your instructor. It takes months, not decades to gain skill in alive arts. You think that it takes a master to be any good, and you are sadly mistaken. Again, had you done ANY research, you would of found this.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I was told in the 1964 Olympics Judo went from a martial art to a sport. Due to that, it has deteriorated, less effective then it was with all the rules and scoring etc.
You are simply wrong. The majority of throws used in competition have not changed much at all from the beginning. Different areas have been weakened by the rules, such as ground work, but the rules didn't make my harai goshi any less effective then some guys in the 1900's. FACT: when a skull meets the concrete, it doesn't end well for the skull. Have you spent any time sparing against judo practitioners? No, then stop posting assumptions about what you think you know. It makes you look like a fool.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
MMA is on that very same path ever since NHB went commercial to MMA. Bjj faded out losing the spot light to the MMA fighters who made fights more exciting, etc. But with all the shift in rules, regulations and more rules etc. to come, and the exploitation and commercialization, and the marketing to keep it a entertaining Pro Wrestling comes to mind with TapouT, etc. it will choke MMA out. MMA will lose out to the next trend. as Bjj lost out to MMA. In time, it will be like Judo and wrestling now. I feel for you guys.
WHAT????? hang on a sec, I want to just write what a few more times...pretend I did that.

Have you been following MMA at all? There is a resurgence in grappling. Here is some homework, check out these guys:
Shinya Aoki
Jason Miller
Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira
Nick Diaz
Mitsuhiro Ishida
Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza
God I hope I really don't have to say this one - Fedor Emelianenko
Hidehiko Yoshida
Kazuhiro Nakamura
Karo Parisyan
Kenny Florian

Well you get the point. The number is only growing. What is changing is fighters are learning more and it is getting harder to win by submission. So the focus of the grappling is changing to be either better at setting up submissions, or using these skills to get takedowns and pound out your opponent.

Yes, there is the annoyance of show boating and clowning before and after fights. But that is really only in the UFC. You do realize there is more to MMA then the UFC right? I'm hoping you watch different mma venues before making up your mind on what mma is or isn't. Or MAYBE your like those mythical bjj guys you talk about who only went to 5 bjjc lasses found one under skilled crappy aikido teacher, tried it for 20 minutes, went home, got on the internet, came here, made a few hundred or thousand posts over a few years about how bjj totally owns aikido, and wastes your bandwith. Nah, i'm going to assume you have indepth knowledge of the rules and training methods employed in mma (took me a while to type that sentence)

And where do I get off all high and mighty? What gives me the right to come here and say what I say? Well nothing. EXCEPT for the fact that I put my money where my mouth is. I wanted to know what judo was like, and rather then listen to the crap spouted by everyone who was afraid to get out there and try it. All the self conscious guys worried about not being good enough, or having to do hard work, or maybe just have egos so freaking huge they had to buy a bigger hakama, I went out and tried it. Not just took a class, but gave sincere effort to learn and ask questions. Then I tested myself and saw where I was lacking. Finally I went back and tried to see how what I was doing would help me achieve my goals. I realized that what I was doing was the slowest possible path. I don't know about you, but I'm not getting any younger.

So rather then just accept what I've been told and just use blind faith and convince myself that everyone else is wrong and only this one guy I am paying money to is right, I decided to not just accept his answers without testing. I gave him the same amount of attention I gave everyone else. I also used logic and science to test what I thought might work.

The results? I did judo for a few months, new guy came in and we did some randori and he could not throw me. He was outward and clumsy. I do aikido for over a year. New guy comes in and I can't even do the simplest of techniques I've been working on 3 times a week. I do bjj for a month, new guy comes in and the stuff my teacher has taught me works. I keep doing aikido and try to show my friends a few wrist locks and find myself just holding hands with guys. I try some mma sparing and find everything I learned in aikido in all that time is just getting me punched in the face. I clinch and judo throw and now I'm not getting punched in the face.

Then I start doing interviews with people (informal). I start meeting not just a few, but dozens of people who have the same experience. Not with aikido mind you, but with tons of 'traditional' arts. And it clicks, what if I applied this alive training method to what I learned from aikido?? Fast forward a few months and now ikkyo actually works! oh my I can do wrist locks in sparing!!! I go back to aikido, and I see that yes the students are getting better. They can do awesome breakfalls, but the progress seems stalled compared to the rate i see in bjj/judo/boxing/whatever. I'm told it is because these techniques take years of drilling to master. I wanted effective self defense and fitness NOW. I didn't want a black belt now or mastery now. I wanted skills that were actually useful now.

And would they ever be useful had I not trained them alive. I would say no. I honestly believe that without alive training, nothing I ever learned would ever help me. I'll say that again.

I honestly believe that without alive training, nothing I ever learned would ever help me.

Now for the why. The first time I ever got seriously punched in the face. I've been in school yard fights, but those kids didn't want to really hurt anyone, they wanted to prove dominance. This is why I ended up friends with a lot of these guys afterward. You would fight it out and be friends. But the first time I ever did any MMA sparing. I remember that. I remember working with a guy who just hit me in the face, and I remember what I did. I turned away and covered. I didn't enter even after all that time of drilling it and being told to do it. I didn't cover and counter. I didn't clinch. I turned the back of my head to a guy throwing punches at me and exposed my back.

I've gotten past it for the most part. But when overwhelmed, I still turn away and cover when I should enter or circle. How would you suggest I fix that? I could have someone throw a shomen strike at my head over and over while I step off the line and enter. Or, I could just keep sparing and keep trying to force myself to do what I know I'm suppose to do. In any case, you would have me wait until it is simply too late to find out. if I can handle a guy in padded gloves trying to tag me, what do you think will happen when I guy wants to really hurt me? I assume you believe some mystical power will surge though me and I will rip his heart out with my bare hands (or bear hands) and then finish off his friends in true steve segal fashion, keeping one in a finger lock just long enough to fire off a witty line.

I'll tell you what would of happened. I would of trained and felt so bad ass. Then when I needed it I would of been struck and turned my head and hopefully woke up without any serious damage.

The good news? I stopped training with self defense in mind. Now i try to improve my physical health and engage in healthy friendly competition. The kind that you believe doesn't exist and I assume you traveled the world looking for.

Again, i'm sorry for being brash (but not if I offend). But I just got back from doing well over 200 squats and 50 jump sprawls, teaching a judo class, and getting my ass handed to me by a purple belt in bjj (hur hur, gay joke hur..) and read that someone with no idea of what I do wants to try to make the people who do what I do look like fools. The post I've quoted is by far the most ignorant, intolerant, holier than thou thing I've replied to on aikiweb. And (probably because of my lack of aiki) simply just pushes my buttons. And quite frankly, ever single time a discussion comes up that has the potential to help people better learn how to apply what they know or learn methods to help train what they know, some know it all has to show up from 1991 and tell us to ignore all the evidence with arguments well past the point of rebuttal. Rather then try to impart any knowledge, they simply just clutter up the page with worthless drivel.

I've tried to be polite and post evidence, but that does not work. I want to be brash in the hopes that some young impressionable student does not come here and believe this bull. But instead does their homework and actually tests out these 'theories' and finds out what actually works.

I leave you with this http://yunshui.files.wordpress.com/2...e-vs-faith.png

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:07 PM   #168
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Yep.
oh...

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Gee...I don't hear Gracie anymore, like in the 1990s, maybe Matt Huges pounded that last nail in that coffin. It's MMA now and not Bjj that is hot.
So you're upset that people are trendy?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Thats my point!
Well, that also holds for fanatically defending something.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Is that Vegan or Pork, or Chicken, or Turkey, or Beef or any type of combination hotdogs?
It's apples and oranges, man. You like oranges better, fine. I get it.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
So what are then the other people in MMA and what are all the other people doing in MMA if they not the champion or pros?
Hopefully enjoying themselves. If not, they should find something they enjoy. But I kinda suspect most of them are just enjoying themselves.

-

Y'know normally I'd just think "Troll" and leave it at that. But you have more posts than usual trolls. It's quite a conundrum. Maybe, God forbid, you actually buy the stuff you spew.

W.

P.S. - I've never trained BJJ, Judo, or MMA in my life. But I have an open mind. It's made all the difference.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:16 PM   #169
DH
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Just ignore him Don. You can't change the world. It's not worth trying. 5 minutes playing with the boys usually shakes some sense into people. Particularly when they see the rather benevelant and fun personalities of these "dreaded" grapplers. Personally I think the mindest, skill set, and demeaner of grapplers wins over a lot of nay sayers.
I'm arguing both sides- I'd love to get my hands on him and have a discussion, but that the only way- hands on. Let it go man, it just isn't worth it.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:17 PM   #170
salim
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Don,

I agree with you. Unfortunately, people like Philip Burgess are the typical modern Aikidoka. I couldn't help but laugh when I read his last post. All I could say was, WOW, this guy and his thinking. His living in a fantasy world about Aikido.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:19 PM   #171
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
My assumption is you sat on the mat and talked about extending ki and moving off the line of attack, then you made some gay jokes about bjj and went out for pancakes.
LMFAO. Can't breathe... omigod....laughing to hard!!!

Good points, Don!!!!!!!!!!!

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:29 PM   #172
DH
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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William Prusner wrote: View Post
LMFAO. Can't breathe... omigod....laughing to hard!!!

Good points, Don!!!!!!!!!!!
Well be careful. Don't go over board.
You can eat the pancakes, and I'll take all the internal ki jokes you care to dish out. Then I'll move and hit you with 6 oz gloves and actually let you in to try and throw me while "I imagine extending ki" and I will be more than happy to see who has something they want to learn after we're done. Just because one guy doesn't understand a method does nothing to invalidate or dimminish the method. Don't fall prey to the same ignorance -you- are accusing him of.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:50 PM   #173
Will Prusner
 
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well be careful. Don't go over board.
You can eat the pancakes, and I'll take all the internal ki jokes you care to dish out. Then I'll move and hit you with 6 oz gloves and actually let you in to try and throw me while "I imagine extending ki" and I will be more than happy to see who has something they want to learn after we're done. Just because one guy doesn't understand a method does nothing to invalidate or diminish the method. Don't fall prey to the same ignorance -you- are accusing him of.
No, no, no, you misunderstand, I found it hilarious because I've actually done all of those things. It just hit too close to home. For me, it was funny because it was true. Long conversations about Ki at IHOP actually makes for a pleasant evening.

I practice Qigong, too. If "imagining extending ki" is funny to me, then I would be a constant source for my own amusement.

I'm always eager to learn. Besides the one inside, my only enemy is ignorance.

W.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
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Old 08-29-2008, 01:33 AM   #174
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Don.

Bravo.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-29-2008, 01:52 AM   #175
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Re: Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido

Don,
I totally feel you on the aliveness thing. I've been through it too. I think that judo was a huge part of my developmental process.

As to aikido, if your instructor is saying it takes years to develop stuff like extension, well, it doesn't. To be blunt, either he doesn't have the skills , can't teach, won't teach, or you're a bad student. Sounds like you're methodical and work hard, so we can scratch bad student off the list. I know I'm being blunt here about your aikido teacher, but those are the facts.

I've seen it with my own two eyes-- a person can develop significant bodyskills within a few years, if they practice every day. I mean that. You combine those skills with alive training and well, it's good times. I know you said "you no longer concern yourself with what's internal." I'm telling you, it's a similar empirical process, just like mastering grappling or striking or any other skill. It's just a different type of attribute training. REALLY activity specific training. Proper internal development training goes solo, then two people to test the understanding against limited resistance (to test your understanding), then to actual wrestling/striking practice in freestyle (to severely test your understanding in chaotic situations). No joke. It's a _different_ way of using the body than what we normally think is the way of using the body.

Just because science can't currently explain it, doesn't mean it isn't explainable. That's a fact-- Stanford University had a taiji master in their motion capture/gait lab and the scientists couldn't explain how the guy could generate the power he did, or even how to train it. That doesn't mean it's not explainable. There's a difference between science as dogma , and science as process. Science as dogma is when people see something that isn't adequately (yet) documented and explained and say "OMG, that can't be possible, that's qi, that's stupid Asian dorks , that's bogus, that's not scientific wah wah wah." Science as process is looking at something like that and saying "weird. it's obviously happening, but we can't explain it. I wonder how it works?" And then, playing around with it to see how it works. Of course some people (I'm not putting you in this category at all) like to stick their fingers in their ears while screaming "I'm not listening, I'm not listening," despite many credible reports to the contrary. Oh well.

To me that another thing about this entire internal-arts internet movement that is so fascinating-- it's watching people from all over the world come together online (and in person, mediated by online interactions) to work on the cutting edge of what is understood about the limits of the human body. And THAT is exciting.

So why did I post this? Because I read your post and I could tell you've spent a long time thinking about and testing your training, going through a disillusionment process with aikido. So , I thought maybe you'd like to hear that there's other stuff out there that paints in the eyes of the dragon, so to speak. I think if you got a chance to check this stuff out , you'd find it fascinating. Changed my life, I can tell you that.

All the best,
Tim

Last edited by Tim Fong : 08-29-2008 at 02:03 AM.
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