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Old 05-09-2006, 12:48 PM   #776
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
The exact same thing happened to me. It can definitely be disheartening. A wave of different emotions and thoughts moved through me afterwards. Confusion, disbelief, frustration, anger... It was probably the anger that kept me going though.

It was a big step for me to put aside 7 years of Aikido and switch to Sambo/MMA and become a beginner again. However, the more time I spend in Sambo/MMA the more I find similarities between Aikido and my new training. Aikido's principles are universal, they just manifest themselves very differently in grappling/MMA. I still maintain that really high-level grapplers have some of the most Aiki-type movement I've encountered. They are masters of subtlety.
i think it will be a kick for everyone concerned to look through the book "the canon of judo" by kyuzo mifune .many would never have guessed the techniques he demonstrated in this book were fundamentals in judo because of popular conception .

examples:

1. achilles lock and block
2. irimi nage (uprooting the tree)

bear in mind when these pictures were shot and that it's not just some current trend to extol someone else's virtue as their own .
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Old 05-09-2006, 01:03 PM   #777
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

So, I guess Mohammed, I am willing to entertain those that come along and look at aikido and see it as something different than maybe you or I do. You might want to look deep inside yourself. Maybe the frustration is not the fact that a few young inexperienced BJJers are trashing your beloved art, but that deep down inside you intrinsically know it has not rounded you out as well as you may like to be as a Martial Artist. Maybe this is what really bothers you about it.

Let us read it again, this thread is all about what? oh yes! AIKIDO DOES NOT WORK AT ALL IN A FIGHT. Now where did we see anything about Aikido vs. other arts? Well, how about Aikido vs wrestling?, Aikido vs. Boxing? Aikido vs Muay Thai? None. But only Aikido vs Bjj keeps coming up. Why is that?
Because no other arts practitioners moves around forum to forum & desperately trying to prove how great their art is except Bjjer's. Now who has the INSECURITY problem?
They all have the same stories. i.e "I have tried other arts & wasted my training time until I found Bjj. It changed my life. I am enlightened now. I know the true meaning of life finally. And of course I can beat you up."
Here's a typical Bjj practitioner with 6 months of vast experience with his extensive research just proven us that how wrong we are. I guess we Aikidoka should leave our dojo's & join Bjj. Because now that we know there is always a Bjjer waiting for us in the street to beat us up empty handed. wait a minute! why not weapons? Are we being close minded? Bjjer carry weapons too. Then why a need for ground fighting or any form of empty handed combat?
How about violent confrontation? When was the last time any violent confrontation took place without a weapon? specially firearms.

Kevin, The reason I joined this forum, to find out about any Daito Ryu dojo within 100 miles from me. It's been several years since I practiced Aikido. My beloved art not just Aikido as you stated(since you know all about me & my inner frustration). I have experienced only merely 3 arts. One of my beloved/Respected art is Massad Ayoobs LF Training & my close companion customized HKP7M8. That's not my only companion though. With that & my past experiences I am quite comfortable with myself in the street. You answered your questions several times in this forum. Aikido as a "Su" not "do". I know several Aikidoka benefits from that part. You are right , I am not well rounded MA. And I will never be well rounded. I am always learning. I will never know it all. That's why I read all the post in this forum by Dan Harden, Brian cates, Dennis hooker, Ron Tisdale & other experts with utmost respect & curiosity in the topics like Jo tricks. without posting any of my opinions. Because I know very little about those subjects. I am not going to run my mouth with my inferior knowledge about a subject with these heavy hitters with years of experience & experiments under their belts. What my experience entails to is, streets of southeast Asia to here in N.Y . And I was not alone.
If someone training in NHB, MMA or Bjj to compete, to be in great shape or defend themselves that's great. But if anybody training these areas with the goal of becoming a empty handed street fighter, they are not fantasizing. They are living in a fantasy land. Now a days you will be very lucky if you have to fight someone without a weapon. If I run from dojo to a Bjj club to become a baad *ss, then I become a Model of a Insecure person in the true form. I am all for cross train any grappling arts , not just Bjj. Why not Sambo, jjj, wrestling, Judo Shuai Chiao etc. This summer My 8 yrs. old & I was going to enroll a local Bjj club. But I am having serious doubt.
After a couple of months of training, I surely don't want my 8 yrs. old to start bashing TKD practicing classmates or join this forum to start challenging Aikidoka.
Kevin, I wonder what type of violent street experience/encounters that you have in your past. I have read your discussion about going to the ground with knife . With all due respect Kevin, Your experience with knife most likely none. Knife experts will have a field day with your theory. Here is knife drill to try. Go pick up couple of day labor for 12 bucks an hour. Buy them lunch. Then give them magic markers as a knife & tell them to stab you. As a motivator, for every marks on your body they get 5 bucks. Roll with them outside in the parking lot on the asphalts. Watch what happens. Knife experts usually starts the demo with a 9/10 yrs. old girls with magic marker, and ask each participants to touch her without being marked.
yes deep down I surely know who I am. In my present employment I won't last a day with a slight of a insecurity about myself.
Now deep down do you know your weakness & frustration about not being able to be sure with yourself in the street? Is that the only reason you went to MA ? To be a better empty handed fighter? Maybe deep down a venomous serpent of insecurity constantly chasing you & some other Bjjers. when guy's like us like to stay away from forums such as Bullshido & joins Aikiweb, still finds it filled with same form of stereotype, inferior & derogatory posts towards the Aikidoka & even towards the founder.
Please take a hint: Some of us fought out in the streets before. We are not in Aiki Dojo for that. If there were still Samurai's today, they would not carry Katana. They would carry a street sweeper.
Question: Whats the preferred method of street fight of Royce Gracie?
Answer: Royce prefer his trusty SIG SAUER.
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Old 05-09-2006, 02:43 PM   #778
drew-jitsu
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Easy on the digital Jihad there Mohammed. My whole point of argument was not that BJJ is better than or more effective than Aikido. THe point of my post was the way that it is commonly trained i.e. not against fully resisting opponents 1) makes application of the technique in a real situation questionable since an untested weapon is basically no weapon. 2) Because it is not tested with aliveness, there seems to be insecurity in many of it's practicioners because they are unsure they can pull off technique when push comes to shove. Could any of you honestly say that on the street in a confrontation with your adreniline pumping you can execute a complicated Aikido technique? The person who likened Aikido to Calculus was right on. It is a complicated art that takes a long time to master. If that is the case, then BJJ is like Algebra, and that is one huge advantage. All things being equal, the less complicated the process the more chance of success of that process. You can use both calculus and algebra to solve many of the same problems. Why complicate your life by choosing the more difficult.

You say people that train in BJJ for the street are living in a fantasy land? Where does that leave you? I may not have the dearth of martial arts knowledge that you have, but one thing I know is that the way BJJ is trained is closer to an actual confrontation than tje way Aikido is trained, unless of course on the street people don't resist throws.

I know my arguments aren't new. I'm sure you've heard them all a million times before. With the information I have, it seems completely logical. Is there any additional information that you care to impart on me to enlighten me?

THe whole reason for me taking a martial art was because I wanted to learn to defend myself if I had to. While Aikido appeals to my sensibilties, I don't have the patience to wait 10 years to master it. BJJ is super easy, and quick to learn. It offers the same advantages of Aikido, i.e. small person vs. large person. Third, the way it's trained is probably the closest you can get to in a street fight.

Last edited by drew-jitsu : 05-09-2006 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 05-09-2006, 02:51 PM   #779
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Why complicate your life by choosing the more difficult
Builds character. Hmm...well....it's supposed to. My Sensei said so...uhhh...

oh never mind...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:01 PM   #780
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Drew, Your previous comments & post is sooo far out there, I did not even attempt to respond to that.
You guy's still don't get it. Street fights will be won by the person is better trained in weapons. That's why a lot, yes a lot of NHB guy's taking weapon based arts on the side. your 6 months of training & extensive research on Aikido did gave me an idea. I will train 3 month in Bjj then open my dojo by name of Mohammed-jutsu. I will claim to be Grand master of 10th degree red belt & Mohammed -jutsu can move mountain. Go ahead humor me again.
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:10 PM   #781
drew-jitsu
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Also as an addendum. Regarding multiple opponents and weapons. Do you really think Aikido will help you in such a situation. Doesn't it stand to reason that if one man is able to take you down, wouldn't two be able to do it that much easier? Even those who claim they can't be taken down are eventually taken down. The multiple opponent senarios I've seen in those cheesy aikido demonstrations are completely unrealistic. The truth of the matter is that no martial art will help you in those situations. That is why Royce Gracie likes his SIg Sauer.
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:11 PM   #782
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

You say people that train in BJJ for the street are living in a fantasy land? Where does that leave you? I

No Drew I did not say that. Here's a copy exactly what I said.
[

B]But if anybody training these areas with the goal of becoming a empty handed street fighter, they are not fantasizing. They are living in a fantasy land[/b]
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:19 PM   #783
milhasan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Drew Nichols wrote:
Also as an addendum. Regarding multiple opponents and weapons. Do you really think Aikido will help you in such a situation. Doesn't it stand to reason that if one man is able to take you down, wouldn't two be able to do it that much easier? Even those who claim they can't be taken down are eventually taken down. The multiple opponent senarios I've seen in those cheesy aikido demonstrations are completely unrealistic. The truth of the matter is that no martial art will help you in those situations. That is why Royce Gracie likes his SIg Sauer.


Read my post again & see where did I said about anything about street fighting by using Aikido. let alone multiple opponents.
Great Drew, You have done some excellent research. You made a breakthrough that most of us still Novice at that area. Let me run to my nearest Bjj club so I can be sensible, practical & safe person. Since we aikidoka are not.
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:22 PM   #784
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Drew, why do I have the feeling that you are really a Aikidoka? You are just pulling our legs?
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:22 PM   #785
drew-jitsu
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mohammed Hasan wrote:
Drew, Your previous comments & post is sooo far out there, I did not even attempt to respond to that.
You guy's still don't get it. Street fights will be won by the person is better trained in weapons. That's why a lot, yes a lot of NHB guy's taking weapon based arts on the side. your 6 months of training & extensive research on Aikido did gave me an idea. I will train 3 month in Bjj then open my dojo by name of Mohammed-jutsu. I will claim to be Grand master of 10th degree red belt & Mohammed -jutsu can move mountain. Go ahead humor me again.
Well you can't really use that name. You see Drew rhymes with Jiu which is what makes it clever. Mohommed does not rhyme with Jiu, so it would kind of not really work. (I'm messing around with you)

Regarding your points on weapons. That is assuming that there are weapons, which is a function of your enviornment. If you're at a bar in south central Los Angeles on a Friday night, there is a good chance that at least 75 % of the people you encounter are armed in some way. However, if you're in a bar in Malibu, chances are that not many people are armed. I have always lived in relatively safe and affluent areas, so I think my chances of getting into a confrontation with someone unarmed are pretty good. I think when we talk about street fighting here, we always assume it's in some low rent demilitarized zone where cops won't even dare to venture. Every fight I have ever witness in bars or night clubs has been between two unarmed combatents and was broken up within 2 minutes and 4/5 have gone to the ground. This is why I train BJJ. I'd like to make sure that the fight won't go beyond 30 seconds. Further more, in crowded club there is no way to make space. Usually space clears one the confrontation has begun. Maybe I should train Wing Chun. My point being is that I'm structuring my training to maximize my advantages in the enviornment I typically inhabit. If I lived in Iraq, I wouldn't even bother training empty hand techniques. I'd get an AK-47 and practice with that.

Last edited by drew-jitsu : 05-09-2006 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:24 PM   #786
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mohammed Hasan wrote:
Drew, why do I have the feeling that you are really a Aikidoka? You are just pulling our legs?
Why do you say that?

No, I mean it. I don't like violence and I do my best to avoid physical confrontation at all cost. I think that's pretty Aikido like no? I don't believe in hurting people, even those that deserve it.

Last edited by drew-jitsu : 05-09-2006 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:27 PM   #787
drew-jitsu
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mohammed Hasan wrote:
You say people that train in BJJ for the street are living in a fantasy land? Where does that leave you? I

No Drew I did not say that. Here's a copy exactly what I said.
[

B]But if anybody training these areas with the goal of becoming a empty handed street fighter, they are not fantasizing. They are living in a fantasy land[/b]
Reread it, and i originally missed your point. Your post was kind of long so it slipped by me. I agree with you here.
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:32 PM   #788
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Btw Drew, even though you see my name as Mohammed, I am not Muslim. In fact I am a Mahayana Buddhist. so jihad has little or no meaning to me.
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:33 PM   #789
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mohammed Hasan wrote:
Btw Drew, even though you see my name as Mohammed, I am not Muslim. In fact I am a Mahayana Buddhist. so jihad have little or no meaning to me at all.
This is why I lose in Vegas. What are the odds?
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:37 PM   #790
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Drew, Thank you very much for keeping the sense of humor. I think that's the only cure we have right now.
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:41 PM   #791
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Mohammed wrote above:
Quote:
Let us read it again, this thread is all about what? oh yes! AIKIDO DOES NOT WORK AT ALL IN A FIGHT. Now where did we see anything about Aikido vs. other arts?

Mohammed wrote in post 707:

Quote:
Like I said in my previous post, Bjj trolling on every Martial arts forums. Whenever any effectiveness of a particular arts or style being discussed, there are always few Bjj practitioners will intervene & bash everything. To prove the superiority of the Bjj style. They will refuse to believe that it is not the art, it is the person. In this forum Aikido's effectiveness is a disguise to really eloquently talk about how Bjjer's can defeat Aikidoka.They are under assumption that we will be unarmed & facing a unarmed Bjjer in the street. Never heard or seen or read any street fights between Bjj & any other arts at least here in Orlando. This thread was to dissecting Aikido, not about Bjj.
Sorry if I offended you. It was not meant to be taken in that vein. My understanding of your comments was based on what you wrote in post 707. Did I get it wrong?

I believe you are making some assumptions and may be reading between the lines a little too deep on what I said.

Again, if the shoe fits, wear it...if not, then leave it alone. It is only you that can decide what is right for you and what is not right for you.

All I can share is what I have learned from my own experiences and training.

I cannot tell if you are inferring that I have been derogatory toward aikido, O'Sensei, or anyone else...that was certainly not my intent.

On another note, I have no interest in street fighting. If have followed my post as close as you seem to have followed a few of them since you bring them up, you would know that I have a very complex view on street fighting and self defense.

I also recommend that you go back and read my comments about ground fighting and knifes a little closer. I never proposed that this was a default solution for fighting, simply a "concept" and idea that was based around a particular set of parameters and situation. An idea and concept...not a solution.

About my experience. Well I can't claim any "street fights" of any great degree. Only a few stupid bar fights that I was a willing participant in. A few I got my ass kicked! Learned some lessons there.

Other than that, I would not claim to be an "expert" any more than anyone else. I just base my opinions on my experiences through what I have learned in the Army over the last ten years through training, teaching, and lessons learned.

I have had the benefit of experiencing things and training that the average citizen has not had the opporunity to be exposed to, much of it in the last several years...it has been eye opening and caused me to reassess many of my paradigms.

Does that make me an expert, no it does not. I never have claimed to be. I only have ideas and opinions that I am constantly questioning, reassessing and reorganizing.

What I have found is that I have a more complex view of martial arts, and in many ways I have less answers than I did 5 years ago!

I found that aikido has much more meaning to me and is much more relevant to today's world than I ever thought it would, however, in a much different way than what I originally thought!

I also discovered for myself that aikido was not the answer to everything that I needed.

It really is as simple as that.

Mohammed, you will probably find that you and I study aikido for many of the same reasons.

I hope we can find some common ground between us!
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Old 05-09-2006, 03:52 PM   #792
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Ah, Mohammed! See already we are having common ground. I too am a follower in Buddhist philosophy. A label, if you must, a "western buddhist"....follow and read many things from both the Theravada and Mahayana traditions, but don't really indentify culturally with on or the other since I am a westerner.

I think you and I would agree that things can be very complex! and that there are no absolutes. That is how I see martial arts and conflict....a very complex issue...many, many paradoxes!
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Old 05-09-2006, 04:02 PM   #793
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

BJJ vs. Aikido = The Past

BJJ + Aikido = The Future
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Old 05-09-2006, 04:06 PM   #794
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Drew,

I think part of Mohammed's frustration lay in the fact that you seem to have an overly simplistic view of aikido and it's goals.

Aikido is a DO art...so by nature and design, it is not easy to compare to something like BJJ. So you really are apples to oranges.

Aikido is a training methodology to help you develop your mind, body, and soul/spirit/attitude...whatever you want to label it. It is not primarily about developing fighting skills or becoming combat effective. The methodology should not be taken literally.

Conflict and fighting can be very complex. O'sensei recognized this as well did Kano, Ueshiba, Funakoshi, Uechi, and many others in post war japan. Do you really think it is a coincidence that all these great mean...to also include Maeda, came from the same general area, around the same time, and developed different, but albeit very, very similar philosophies and methodolgies for training?

Mohammed makes some very good points about fighting. It really gets over romanticized. I have severa; big banners in my dojo to remind my students/soldiers about the objectives of their training.

First one says. "leave your ego at the door".

Second one says, "The winner of a hand to hand fight is the one whose buddy shows up with a gun first".

Third one says, "The defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with and destroy the enemy".

I understand the third one seems a little harsh. But, well, that is what it is about. Key word is willingness. Not desire, not attitude...but willingness. Having the courage to do what is right!

Sure, you might go to a BJJ dojo and learn some really useful things. That is why I train in it almost daily these days!!!!

But, you must be careful to understand the complexity of conflict, fighting and what it means to enter into battle or dispense violence. What it means to make the decision to use violence as a means to resolve conflict. And what it means to deal with the aftermath of violence.

It takes little or no skill to get into a fight or really to win a fight. It takes much more skill to resolve a fight with little or no violence.

In aikido, we are training to become more skillfull at resolving conflict. A very, very complex concept to learn!
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Old 05-09-2006, 04:56 PM   #795
Mark Freeman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Could any of you honestly say that on the street in a confrontation with your adreniline pumping you can execute a complicated Aikido technique? The person who likened Aikido to Calculus was right on. It is a complicated art that takes a long time to master. If that is the case, then BJJ is like Algebra, and that is one huge advantage. All things being equal, the less complicated the process the more chance of success of that process. You can use both calculus and algebra to solve many of the same problems. Why complicate your life by choosing the more difficult.
This shows a lack of understanding of aikido, of course there are complicated aikido movements, and movements that take many years to master. But if you understand aikido you don't do complicated when simple will do the trick.
The maths metaphor is way off the mark unless you accept that a man who has mastered calculus will probably use addition and subtraction most of the time.

I'm always mildly amused when the same misunderstandings are peddled about aikido from those who have 'seen some demonstrations' or have done it for a while.

Of course there are faster ways to become an effective streetfighter, if you want to be a streetfighter go train in them. You may end up being the best fighter around, good for you.

Aikido is not here for 'ultimate fighter' training. It is an art form based in the culture and history of the martial diciplines of Japan, brought to life by one man and spread around the world by the many students who learnt from him, students many of whom were recognised experts in many other arts. They all stayed because what O Sensei was offering was unique.

Aikido has an enormous amount to offer a wide spectrum of people.It can be practiced in the hard pre war fashion right through the spectrum to the softest flowing dance like movements that some like to ridicule.
It's all aikido and some aikidoka are much more effective in a real fight than others.
Aikido offers the mind, body and spirit a greater potential for developement over a lifetime than 'virtually' any other art.
My teacher is constantly castigating students for having a 'fighting mind' it being the thing that most stands in the way of their progress. Even when you are consciously practising it is not easy to get rid of.
You cannot practice full resistance training anything and expect to excel in the art of 'non resistance'.

Really fully understanding the true 'non resistance' of aikido may be the hardest part of the art to grasp.

Often the only way to reach this 'ideal' is to spend alot of time working on clearing your mind of all the clutter that gets in the way of it happening spontaneously ( the buddhists reading will know the problem )

Becoming a good grappler/fighter/ streetfighter is similar to a game of physical chess, you win, you lose, you try again, you get better but you can always be beaten by a younger/stronger/cleverer opponent.
Becoming a good aikidoka is not like this. You practice, you follow the way, you practice some more, you polish your spirit, you help others on the way. There is no winning, only constant improvement.

If you want to fight, go fight, if you want something better than fighting practice aikido

regards
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-09-2006, 06:04 PM   #796
drew-jitsu
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
This shows a lack of understanding of aikido, of course there are complicated aikido movements, and movements that take many years to master. But if you understand aikido you don't do complicated when simple will do the trick.
The maths metaphor is way off the mark unless you accept that a man who has mastered calculus will probably use addition and subtraction most of the time.

I'm always mildly amused when the same misunderstandings are peddled about aikido from those who have 'seen some demonstrations' or have done it for a while.

Of course there are faster ways to become an effective streetfighter, if you want to be a streetfighter go train in them. You may end up being the best fighter around, good for you.

Aikido is not here for 'ultimate fighter' training. It is an art form based in the culture and history of the martial diciplines of Japan, brought to life by one man and spread around the world by the many students who learnt from him, students many of whom were recognised experts in many other arts. They all stayed because what O Sensei was offering was unique.

Aikido has an enormous amount to offer a wide spectrum of people.It can be practiced in the hard pre war fashion right through the spectrum to the softest flowing dance like movements that some like to ridicule.
It's all aikido and some aikidoka are much more effective in a real fight than others.
Aikido offers the mind, body and spirit a greater potential for developement over a lifetime than 'virtually' any other art.
My teacher is constantly castigating students for having a 'fighting mind' it being the thing that most stands in the way of their progress. Even when you are consciously practising it is not easy to get rid of.
You cannot practice full resistance training anything and expect to excel in the art of 'non resistance'.

Really fully understanding the true 'non resistance' of aikido may be the hardest part of the art to grasp.

Often the only way to reach this 'ideal' is to spend alot of time working on clearing your mind of all the clutter that gets in the way of it happening spontaneously ( the buddhists reading will know the problem )

Becoming a good grappler/fighter/ streetfighter is similar to a game of physical chess, you win, you lose, you try again, you get better but you can always be beaten by a younger/stronger/cleverer opponent.
Becoming a good aikidoka is not like this. You practice, you follow the way, you practice some more, you polish your spirit, you help others on the way. There is no winning, only constant improvement.

If you want to fight, go fight, if you want something better than fighting practice aikido

regards
Mark
So then it comes down to a question of motivation and beliefs. I know I'm going to offend a lot of people in this post on many different levels, but please keep in mind that is not my intention.

For me personally, I believe that martial arts should be just that. Martial. That's part of the reason I like BJJ. There is no philosophy/mysticism/religon involved. If I wanted spirituality, I would look for it at a church/temple/sinagog or where ever. I've been very cautious in my life regarding who's or what belief system to follow. I'm also very weary of any man who claims to have found the path to enlightenment or happiness or to claim to konw what God wants no matter how smart/wise/experienced they are. I guess my question is, and please don't take offence to this, are you fooling yourself into thinking that aikido is developing you in ways outside of martial combat? I ask this honestly because I will admit complete ignorance here. As you might have gleamed from my post, I'm not religious or spiritual in any way shape or form. I would like to get more specific information as to how aikido benefits you aside from the martial aspect. We've rambled on for almost 800 posts regarding martial effectiveness, why don't we talk about it's effectiveness in spiritual development.
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Old 05-09-2006, 10:50 PM   #797
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Martial is a big word that has many, many parts.

I am in the Army, so I believe I am somewhat qualified to discuss "martial".

It is not simply about fighting skills. It is taking those skills and all that you are and being able to use them over and over again in many different ways and on many different levels. It ties together you mental state, emotional state, physical, and spiritual...however you may define or not define that. Yes, not believing or having religion is also a spiritual state.

We do Combatives in the army. Our Field Manual addresses these very same issues. It is not primarily about the fighting skills that you learn but about the warrior spirit and the person. (FM 3-25.150 Chapter 1-2)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...25-150/ch1.htm

Aikido is not about religion. (go visit many of these issues on other threads!). It is about, as any martial art is, about developing your whole person.

BJJ is not as forth right about this, but it is still there. You do develop bonds and brotherhood fast in BJJ. It requires team work, cooperation, and a code of conduct and respect for one another.

Aikido is philosophically based more so than say BJJ. The methodology may not be for you at this moment in your life, or it may never be for you.

I can tell you having been in the military for 22 years, last 10 or so specifically as an Infantry officer, that I find many benefits to practicing aikido.

I recommend that you read Richard Strozzi Heckler's book..."In Search for the Warrior Spirit". It will give you an idea of the depth and complexity of aikido.

You will find that it is not necessarily all about "finding the path to enlightenment or figuring out what god knows".

I can tell you that over the years, my experiences in life and aikido have shown me many things. It has shown me that conflict is complicated. It has shown me that people fight for reasons that they do not really understand. It has shown me that we are by nature quick to want to be understood and not necessarily concerned about understanding others. It has shown me that through conditioning and experiences that we make assumptions that may cause us to respond unappropriately to a situation.

It has shown me that it is possible to see things a different way, to recondition your mind, body, and spirit to better understand people, their nature, and how we can better interact with the world and those around us.

So yes, it has "enlightened me". I am a much more content and happier person and tend to get along better with human beings.

All this is a part of Martial.

You don't simply fight with your arms and legs...you fight with the totality of your person. You fight every day you get up and take a breath. You fight in ways you don't understand!

If you want to talk about spiritual development. I would be happy to carry that to another thread under spirituality.
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Old 05-09-2006, 10:52 PM   #798
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

BTW, Richard Strozzi Heckler and his associated dojo is in Northern California in the Bay area.
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Old 05-10-2006, 03:25 AM   #799
Mark Freeman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Drew
Quote:
For me personally, I believe that martial arts should be just that. Martial. That's part of the reason I like BJJ. There is no philosophy/mysticism/religon involved. If I wanted spirituality, I would look for it at a church/temple/sinagog or where ever.
A popular belief amongst the footsoldiers of MA, but listen to the old timers in many of the arts, and you will hear them talk of much greater things.
All arts have a 'philosophy' even if it is as crude and as basic as "we are only here to kick ass"
As far as my aikido practice goes there is no religion or mysticism involved. Also spirituality does not exist in churches temples or synagogues, it is a human condition.
Quote:
I've been very cautious in my life regarding who's or what belief system to follow. I'm also very weary of any man who claims to have found the path to enlightenment or happiness or to claim to konw what God wants no matter how smart/wise/experienced they are
Very wise!
Quote:
I guess my question is, and please don't take offence to this, are you fooling yourself into thinking that aikido is developing you in ways outside of martial combat? I ask this honestly because I will admit complete ignorance here.
No offence taken, you are up front about your lack of knowledge, but the simple answer to the fooling yourself question is No! (see below)
Quote:
As you might have gleamed from my post, I'm not religious or spiritual in any way shape or form. I would like to get more specific information as to how aikido benefits you aside from the martial aspect.
Non martial benefits of aikido include:
Mental calmness
Better physical posture,
Better mind body co-ordination,
Sharper mental focus
Greater empathy with others
Increased sensitivity
Greater awareness
More skill in conflict resolution,
A greater appreciation of the 'flow' of life.
Better timing
A connection / feeling of 'family' with the worlds akidoka
Greater confidence

This list could ( and probably will ) be added to. I know that since I have been practicing I am a better father, partner and lover, I'm not (such) an aurgumentative, defensive pain in the ass that I once was.
Kevin's post just about covered all your questions, but I just wanted to add my own personal take.

regards
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-10-2006, 09:35 PM   #800
Dajo251
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

so today i was driving and the guy infront of me hadtwo stickers, one was a tap out sticker and the other one said gracie jui jitsu real martial arts, and the first thing I thought of was this thread

Dan Hulley
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