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Old 02-11-2018, 11:01 AM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

B-movie Aikido + crappling.

I'm not sure if these guys are delusional or trolling.
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Old 02-15-2018, 11:50 AM   #27
MrIggy
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ptIEYM2JPI - munetsuki hijinage or chudantsuki udekimenage
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:58 PM   #28
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ptIEYM2JPI - munetsuki hijinage or chudantsuki udekimenage
Igor, if you keep posting, can we have your opinion please?

Quote:
I'm not sure if these guys are delusional or trolling.
There seems to be an odd market niche for people who cannot leave aikido because they have committed to it as their profession, and now they come up with this type of stuff instead of just moving on.

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 02-15-2018 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:19 PM   #29
Michael Hackett
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

First of all I detest his vulgarity in his presentation. Believe me after years in the Marines I can use a particular four-letter word as a noun, verb, or adjective in dozens of ways. While I have that "skill" I don't exercise it in a public forum. I think a person can convey a good, strong message without all the profanity.

Secondly, his application is simply poorly done. No, it didn't work and that isn't a surprise to me. Done well with an attacker who isn't specifically expecting that response is usually effective.

I will grant that some aikido techniques aren't as effective as others in an actual "combat" situation, but all of this is simply incorrect in my opinion.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:45 PM   #30
MrIggy
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
Igor, if you keep posting, can we have your opinion please?

There seems to be an odd market niche for people who cannot leave aikido because they have committed to it as their profession, and now they come up with this type of stuff instead of just moving on.
With some things I agree, with some things I don't. Happy?
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Old 02-16-2018, 05:44 AM   #31
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

What does happy have to do with it? This guy is not doing aikido...he should just leave it be. If you are going to disparage something you should at least have a good understanding of what it can do. He does not.

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Old 02-16-2018, 06:33 AM   #32
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
What does happy have to do with it? This guy is not doing aikido...he should just leave it be. If you are going to disparage something you should at least have a good understanding of what it can do. He does not.
I meant happy with my answer. What is he doing then if not your general Aikido techniques with some of his "own flavor". Seriously, what is Aikido supposed to be in your mind?
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Old 02-16-2018, 10:17 AM   #33
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

He is not leading. He is using muscle and his language is negative.

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Old 02-16-2018, 11:55 AM   #34
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

The simple way I see it is - Aikido doesn't really have techniques. Jujutsu has techniques. And Jujutsu has aiki-waza, which are learned after you learn the techniques. Judo also has a token 5 aiki-waza in on of its katas. The Way, was to learn the techniques, then learn the aiki-waza, and if you were good, the aiki-waza you learned, in time, would modify the way you performed all the techniques.
Ueshiba junked the techniques, and if he kept some, he performed them like aiki-waza and called it Aikido. Not Jujutsu. Sure, some of the things we do look a bit like techniques, but the aim of all the 'stuff' in Aikido is to develop your aiki. Ueshiba used it that way, I believe.
If you look at nikyo - in Jujutsu it will be done with a kick and/or punch. But our way is to develop the aiki-ness of it and just do the nikyo part. But the reality is, for self-defence, that kick and punch that got junked would be pretty useful. But by practicing nikyo separately, we get to a high level of doing it that if combined with the kick/punch would make it pretty effective. Anyway, the purpose of Aikido is to learn/improve aiki, but without Jujutsu it is pretty ineffective for self-defence. I believe that to practice Aikido for self-defence to be a huge mistake. One day, someone will wake up and listen.

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Old 02-17-2018, 07:48 PM   #35
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
The simple way I see it is - Aikido doesn't really have techniques. Jujutsu has techniques. And Jujutsu has aiki-waza, which are learned after you learn the techniques. Judo also has a token 5 aiki-waza in on of its katas. The Way, was to learn the techniques, then learn the aiki-waza, and if you were good, the aiki-waza you learned, in time, would modify the way you performed all the techniques.
Ueshiba junked the techniques, and if he kept some, he performed them like aiki-waza and called it Aikido. Not Jujutsu. Sure, some of the things we do look a bit like techniques, but the aim of all the 'stuff' in Aikido is to develop your aiki. Ueshiba used it that way, I believe.
If you look at nikyo - in Jujutsu it will be done with a kick and/or punch. But our way is to develop the aiki-ness of it and just do the nikyo part. But the reality is, for self-defence, that kick and punch that got junked would be pretty useful. But by practicing nikyo separately, we get to a high level of doing it that if combined with the kick/punch would make it pretty effective. Anyway, the purpose of Aikido is to learn/improve aiki, but without Jujutsu it is pretty ineffective for self-defence. I believe that to practice Aikido for self-defence to be a huge mistake. One day, someone will wake up and listen.
I agree 100% with what you have said except the highlighted sentence. I have used Aikido without any kicking or punching successfully on untrained attackers.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:13 PM   #36
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I agree 100% with what you have said except the highlighted sentence. I have used Aikido without any kicking or punching successfully on untrained attackers.
I didn't say you can't do it. Rather, it is not Aikido's purpose. They say that ballet is the art of making unnatural movement look natural. Well, making Aikido into self-defence is the same thing. You can do it if you want ...

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Old 02-18-2018, 05:08 AM   #37
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I have used Aikido without any kicking or punching successfully on untrained attackers.
Untrained attackers suck. One does not need to train in a Budo to deal with them, being in decent shape and the will to survive is usually more than enough.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:07 AM   #38
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Untrained attackers suck. One does not need to train in a Budo to deal with them, being in decent shape and the will to survive is usually more than enough.
Being in decent shape and the will to survive during a fight will get you bloodied.

dps
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:13 AM   #39
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Sure, some of the things we do look a bit like techniques, but the aim of all the 'stuff' in Aikido is to develop your aiki.
Then what do you do with it after you develope your "aiki"?

dps
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:09 AM   #40
Walter Martindale
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Untrained attackers suck. One does not need to train in a Budo to deal with them, being in decent shape and the will to survive is usually more than enough.
If you mean untrained in the sense of "unfit" - sure. If you mean "untrained" in the sense of having not a lot of "martial arts" training, I suspect a work-hardened pub-brawling general laborer with a pipe-wrench or a pool-cue might present more problems.
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:50 AM   #41
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
If you mean untrained in the sense of "unfit" - sure. If you mean "untrained" in the sense of having not a lot of "martial arts" training, I suspect a work-hardened pub-brawling general laborer with a pipe-wrench or a pool-cue might present more problems.
That's why I wrote "decent shape" and "usually".

You are a rowing coach. Don't you think your guys could handle the average unarmed guy?

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 02-18-2018 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:46 AM   #42
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Then what do you do with it after you develope your "aiki"?

dps
It is called Aikido = The Way of Aiki.

You have to keep developing it if you do Aikido. That is what it is. Go do Jujutsu / Judo and see if you can make it work for you. Think / work on it. But don't bring the Jujutsu back to Aikido. Keep if for yourself. Encourage others to go on their own journey.

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Old 02-18-2018, 11:37 AM   #43
Walter Martindale
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
That's why I wrote "decent shape" and "usually".

You are a rowing coach. Don't you think your guys could handle the average unarmed guy?
Physically yes, easily. Until the first time they got hit on the nose. They train to row fast and unless they have some background experience in not getting hit, they are vulnerable to anyone with a quick fist or snappy kick to the shin, knee, or "naughty bits."

I actually started rowing partly because of the experience of doing a newaza practice with a rowing guy. He didn't know anything but was so strong I couldn't control him.

After a year of rowing training I went back to a judo session and essentially beat up the other four guys in the dojo, twice each, before I started getting tired. Including my sandan sempai. I was ikkyu. I've coached kiwi rowers who had strong rugby backgrounds. They could handle themselves but they were also accustomed to very rough sport.

Without some background hardening up and getting used to being knocked about, I suspect many rowers wouldn't know what to do in a scrap, because it's not something they normally do.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:24 PM   #44
MrIggy
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
I actually started rowing partly because of the experience of doing a newaza practice with a rowing guy. He didn't know anything but was so strong I couldn't control him.

After a year of rowing training I went back to a judo session and essentially beat up the other four guys in the dojo, twice each, before I started getting tired. Including my sandan sempai. I was ikkyu.
This reminds me of a situation when a big strong local rower and a Judo guy, who was a black belt at the time, got into some argument and the Judo guy went at him and the rower just grabbed him for the neck and pushed him back against a wall. The Judo guy couldn't move an inch.

I know personally a couple of rowers, scary strong people.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:35 PM   #45
Walter Martindale
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
This reminds me of a situation when a big strong local rower and a Judo guy, who was a black belt at the time, got into some argument and the Judo guy went at him and the rower just grabbed him for the neck and pushed him back against a wall. The Judo guy couldn't move an inch.

I know personally a couple of rowers, scary strong people.
Seriously... I'm in my 60s now and in terrible shape but .. a friend was in the 1984 gold medal men's 8+. Shortly after the 84 Olympics, we tested him on a rowing machine that had a strain gauge attached to the driving mechanism to see how much force he was exerting. In 1992 we tested a woman who was 1991 world champion in the pair.

He averaged 800N of force, 30/minute, for six minutes.
We only tested force production on the women for 2 minutes because they were in the middle of selection races for the 92 Olympics, and we didn't want to make them tired - the one averaged 600n of force, 30/minute for 2 minutes.

That's 81 kg of pull (179 lb) for the guy - 30 per minute for 6 minutes.
61 kg of pull (134 lb) for the woman... for 2 minutes.. She retired after the 96 Olympics with 3 gold medals.

That may not be a lot of force if you're considering weight lifting - but - do it for 6 minutes...

But they're (ok, they were) rowers, not fighters... They'd be able to control someone, but wouldn't know what to do.
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:21 PM   #46
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
I've coached kiwi rowers who had strong rugby backgrounds. They could handle themselves but they were also accustomed to very rough sport.
LOL...that was me. I would row in the summer and come winter be all set for the rugby season. Super fit. I would have to strap on ankle weights for the road runs so my rugby team mates could be competitive. As the rugby season wore on, my fitness level receded.

Motto tsuyoku
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:50 AM   #47
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Rupert Atkinson;353052If you look at [I wrote:
nikyo [/i]- in Jujutsu it will be done with a kick and/or punch. But our way is to develop the aiki-ness of it and just do the nikyo part. But the reality is, for self-defence, that kick and punch that got junked would be pretty useful.
Why do you think they got junked? The photo is definitely representative for the way how Ueshiba performed techniques..

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Old 02-19-2018, 05:39 AM   #48
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
The photo is definitely representative for the way how Ueshiba performed techniques..
Are there still people who cares about how Ueshiba performed tecniques?
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:27 AM   #49
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Are there still people who cares about how Ueshiba performed tecniques?
Iwama people are quit keen in keeping the old way of performing techniques alive.
And of course there are many other people who care about how Ueshiba perfomed techniques, my teacher for example points out, if there is a difference between what he does and how O Sensei did it. If there is, it is for a good reason.

They point is that the punching techniques were not junked by Ueshiba, he performed atemi-techniques his whole live.
Indeed I never saw him kicking, but that is because he said that both feet belong on the ground.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:16 AM   #50
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Re: AIKIDO - The way that doesn't work! - The Series

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Iwama people are quit keen in keeping the old way of performing techniques alive.
And of course there are many other people who care about how Ueshiba perfomed techniques, my teacher for example points out, if there is a difference between what he does and how O Sensei did it. If there is, it is for a good reason.

They point is that the punching techniques were not junked by Ueshiba, he performed atemi-techniques his whole live.
Indeed I never saw him kicking, but that is because he said that both feet belong on the ground.
"he performed atemi-techniques his whole live." oh c'mon, show me one where he uses atemi and i'll show you one where he doesnt. Or we can start discussing on what exactly constitutes atemi or continue the "atemi or not" discussion which would take this thread off course.

In all honesty, i see nothing wrong with being aware of openings during techniques, i think a shot to the ribs is so wicked. The trouble with a kick/punch approach is that some instructors will use the strikes as a catch all 'escape clause" to command an uke to behave like "like hold on real tight, if u let go i'll hit you!" thus ensuring the uke holds on like a madman with a death-grip like a he's gonna fall off the building if he let's go. Or the strike is the go to approach to "unbalance" an attacker ie from a front hand grab ie hit uke and then do technique without taking into account variables like size differences between defender n attacker, whether it was a lousy punch etc as if the atemi was all powerfull.

Having said that a lot of daito ryu technique has atemi included. Do you think that after the war, O Sensei could have changed/ did away with some stuff as O Sensei only discovered the real spirit of aikido in 1950 as in the interview here (conducted in 1957) -
"During the Sengoku Period (1482-1558-Sengoku meaning "warring countries") local lords used the martial arts as a fighting tool to serve their own private interests and to satisfy their greed. This I think was totally inappropriate. Since I myself taught martial arts to be~used for the purpose of killing others to soldiers during the War, I became deeply troubled after the conflict ended. This motivated me to discover the true spirit of Aikido seven years ago, at which time I came upon the idea of building a heaven on earth. "

Or when Sadao Takaoka (after the war) commented about sensei "When I trained with him he was so soft that I asked him if I would be able to produce as much power as he had before the war if I did this training. O-Sensei replied “Before the war I trained with strength without understanding. Now that strength is not necessary. This is Takemusu Aiki!”. " O sensei further explained "In the year that the war ended I became ill and my spirit became weak. As I thought of going to heaven an angel came to fan my flames. When I tried to leave even then a lone priest appeared and told me to return. He explained that it was too soon to see his face, that I was not yet cultivated enough.

After that I recovered from my illness. When I thought to go to offer prayers at the Aiki-jinja I saw a white man on the front path. Looking closely I saw that another Ueshiba holding a wooden sword standing in kamae, and when I went to strike him I was struck. When I struck again I was struck again. When I took a stance the next time he vanished suddenly. From that time my techniques became soft. The is Sho-chiku-bai Kenpo (“the Pine-bamboo-plum method of the sword”).

Also from Shigenobu Okumura, who commented "O-Sensei also followed the teachings of Omoto (Omoto-kyo), and there was something called “The Budo of the Gods does not kill” (“jinbu fusatsu” / 神武不殺). However, at that time he couldn’t say such things. At the university it was required that techniques “for killing” were taught, and of course the Military Police Corps (憲平隊) had to be taught Aikido for the purpose of throwing down the opponent. For that reason, when I was repatriated after the war and met O-Sensei, who was working in the fields of Iwama, he said “I was rebuked by the gods. They told me start over from the beginning! The Budo that kills is prohibited!”

"I was rebuked by the Gods!". It's seems obvious that something 'change d' from the period OSensei left the military and went to back to iwama (1942-1950). and not only change BUT Osensei had to start over.

If O sensei had to start over, then maybe what he did in the past was closer to daitoryu and what he was trying to reinvent was closer to his version of "aikido". years back, I read some comments that Osensei changed because he got old and couldnt do the physical stuff but from my readings, he changed because he wanted to (or maybe he didnt want to face the wrath of the Gods themselves!).

Saotome commented on the "dark side of aikido" here
http://tampaaikido.com/articles/bala...s-of-o-sensei/

*some stuff taken from the aikidosangenkai.org website.

Last edited by ksy : 02-19-2018 at 10:29 AM.
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