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Old 10-03-2002, 11:42 AM   #51
MattRice
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Maryland
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I was very interested in the first couple of UFC bouts. Where it was ACTUALLY MIXED MARTIAL ARTS. Now it seems, that now matter what the paticipants call what they do, it's just UFC-STYLE, it all looks the same. It's geared toward a ring with a fence, certain time limits on rounds, basic rules etc. In the early matches, you could see how one figthter/style faired against another. Now it seems like this--> shoot/knockdown--> lock and submit or mount and pummel. It all seems pretty barbaric to me, but I might be a wuss.

As far as aikidoka getting into the ring for a UFC match...why? Sure you could train like a madman, alter your techniques to fit the match/rules/ring, cross train etc etc. But once there you would not be doing Aikido anyway. You'd end up wearing a speedo and going for the mount&pummel cuz that's what wins matches.
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Old 10-03-2002, 12:54 PM   #52
Roy Dean
 
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Location: Palm Desert, California
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Mike,

I used to share your beliefs, but over time, experience has shown me otherwise.

No doubt that a Godan is a skilled individual. However, I would rather be in a bar with someone that has endured a physically demanding and rigorous training method. Aikido can be tough, but not nearly as tough as what a UFC competitor has endured. I know the UFC fighter can take a punch or kick delivered by a skilled individual. I know the UFC fighter can grapple. He will not fold under duress. The Godan may be able to handle an altercation just as smoothly, if not more so, than the UFC competitor. However, if taken out of his specified range of combat or sphere of expertise, then it's all over.

This is what my experience has shown me. Your experiences are different, leading to a different conclusion. Perhaps you will change your view over time, perhaps I will. Neither one of us is "right", we are simply putting forth what we believe to be true.

Dangus,

Nice post. You bring up many good points, and if you fundamentally disagree with the intentions behind competitions like boxing or the UFC, there is little I can offer to dissuade you from your position. We have different perspectives, that's all.

Personally, I don't really see much difference between and olympic judo competition and the UFC. Slamming people on their backs and choking or locking out joints until submission... sounds like violence to me. Or maybe it's just the application of martial techniques. The same goes for NHB competitions. Less rules, more variables.

I don't think a sport or art should be fully judged by the maturity level of the practitioners, esp. those in the early stages of training. People come to Aikido classes wanting to be Steven Seagal and/or achieve enlightened invincibility. People have different attitudes and motivations for training, in a variety of arts. When I view MMA or NHB competitions, I see warrior spirit, technical excellence, and the finest martial atheletes on the planet (if not ever). That is my perspective. Not everyone shares it.

Personally, I feel that many of the hot blooded Japanese masters that studied under O'Sensei would have entered the UFC if it had been around in the day. Mochizuki was obviously into cross-training. Same with Tomiki. Gozo Shioda picked at least one fight to test himself; Tomiki challenged and fought many. They were seeking martial truth. The UFC is an arena to offer answers to those that pursue martial truth.

Many of the hot blooded Japanese warriors of today are engaged in new and evolving arts/events like Pancrase, Shooto, and MMA training/PRIDE. It is the Kazushi Sakurabas and Rumina Satos of the martial arts world that are becoming the new masters.

Excellent debate. Good training to you.

Roy

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Old 10-03-2002, 01:14 PM   #53
paw
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Roy is correct.

Well said.
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Old 10-03-2002, 09:33 PM   #54
Dangus
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This has been a good debate Roy, and if I seem overly harsh at any point, it's mostly due to posting at the end of the day when I am most tired and crabby.

I suppose I should spell out where I'm coming from on all this a bit more, so as to define the basic reasoning of my position. I believe martial arts are a complicated and subtle thing at their very best, and I believe that the philosophy is at the very core of those arts. To me, a true practicioner of martial arts, a true warrior, fights unnecessary fights only to teach or to learn, not to entertain or profit. Violence is a tool we must sometimes use, not a tool we should exploit. By violence, I mean conflict, not in the true dictionary definition of it. Aikido is one of my two major focuses, the other is Kung-Fu(mix of styles). These arts both focus heavily on fighting for a noble purpose, not for whimsical or selfish reasons.

At the core of both of these arts is a deep philosophical core that can offer advantages both in fights and in life as a whole that any brute fight style never will. I have witnessed advanced practicioners of kung-fu purposely take what should be incapacitating blows, using a subtle strength of body and mind that allows them to withstand and give way just enough to leave them unharmed. I have seen my Aikido teacher demonstrate throws on a pigheaded monster of a football player who insisted he could not be thrown, and proceeded to push and goad my very small sensei. Aikido and kung-fu are so heavily dependant upon the philosophical cores that I would contend that neither can be truly used to their full intensity without those ideas guiding every move. Call me a new age hippie if you will, but I believe strongly in this. UFC teaches dedication, it teaches brute strength, but it does not teach the life, and the mindset that true practices of these arts do. Even when such a case arises where the martial artist cannot defeat the UFC fighter, I still contend that in the long term the martial artist has all the advantages, because he benefits every day, in so many various ways. He learns an approach to living, to fighting, to decision-making, and I would say even to loving. Those I have met who have really accepted these philosophies are the calmest, wisest, most fair people I have ever had the fortune of meeting. This is what I mean about dedication, about taking the time to really learn in depth. A UFC fighter may train ten times more, but he trains ultimately for his goal, to win fights, and as such he will learn the techniques that give him that, neglecting the less obvious. A true martial artist trains to improve his very core, and spends deep time devoted to lessons that will not win him fights, and looks to the long run. To me that is the very heart of the difference.

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares plow for those who keep their's" -Ben Franklin
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