Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-01-2004, 11:05 PM   #1
tedehara
 
tedehara's Avatar
Dojo: Evanston Ki-Aikido
Location: Evanston IL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 826
Offline
Taking Up Slack

This is a continuation of the technique thread Kotegashi Weakness. I'm starting a separate thread because I don't want to hijack the original thread. I don't see taking up slack as a "simple" concept that everyone understands.

Personally I know I'm not consistently taking up slack while doing techniques. Even though I can intellectualize about slack, to actualize it during the execution of a technique is a challenge. And taking up slack is important. It is probably the most common reason aikido techniques "don't work".

If you hold someone and you can feel their bones, you're holding too hard. When you take up slack, you just feel their skin. If you hold someone's wrist, the weight of your relaxed arm should automatically take up slack. So you can not only take up slack on a person, but you can also take up slack holding a sword. Also you can take up slack when someone is testing you to see if you're doing rowing exercise correctly. Taking up slack applies not only to empty-handed techniques, but to weapons and exercise testing.

The concept of taking up slack permeates aikido, yet I've never read a discussion about it. I have heard people occasionally mention it, but no one I've heard has really focused on it.

One interesting implication is this:
  • When you hold tightly there is a tendency for your weight to come upper side.
  • When you hold tightly you can't take up slack, therefore your strongest grip is to hold softly.
  • In the Ki Society ukes are trained to hold softly since it is the strongest attack.
  • In most Aikikai dojos ukes are trained to hold hard (tightly) since this was the advice the founder gave all his ukes at Hombu dojo.
Two different organizations. Two fundamentally different ways of practice.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
About Ki
About You
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2004, 11:22 PM   #2
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 6,049
Offline
Re: Taking Up Slack

Hi Ted,

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
Two different organizations. Two fundamentally different ways of practice.
Just last weekend, Saotome sensei was talking about making contact with one's tegatana and using it to affect your partner. He specifically talked about nage making his/her skin "taut" against uke's attacking shomenuchi and just using that to affect uke. (George, if you understood this differently or could give more depth to what I understood, please do so...) I've been thrown by him in this manner.

I have trained with non-Ki Society people (hi Chuck!) who connect with the barest of skin-to-skin contact. For instance, one person stands with his/her hands palm up, and the their partner places his/her hands on it, palms down. The person with their palms up then tries to affect his/her partner's balance by moving. If "uke" feels anything, they're free to just move their hands. I've been thrown this way in the past. I've shown this exercise (or, at least, my interpretation thereof) where I currently train.

I never got to feel him, but from those who have, I heard that Yamaguchi sensei used to have hands that felt "sticky." Without him gripping, he was able to affect people through this sort of soft yet compelling hands. I have felt students on his (who are now shihan) who do this sort of thing.

Of course, this doesn't mean that this it the only way that we practice. As you mentioned before, Aikikai is an organization, not a style. There are those out there who do use a rather strong, "crushing" grip. We do it at times, too.

But, to say that no one outside of Ki Society or any one group doesn't practice in the manner that you outline is, I think, painting with a rather broad brush...

Just my thoughts.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2004, 04:08 AM   #3
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Taking Up Slack

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Hi Ted,



Just last weekend, Saotome sensei was talking about making contact with one's tegatana and using it to affect your partner. He specifically talked about nage making his/her skin "taut" against uke's attacking shomenuchi and just using that to affect uke. (George, if you understood this differently or could give more depth to what I understood, please do so...) I've been thrown by him in this manner.

I have trained with non-Ki Society people (hi Chuck!) who connect with the barest of skin-to-skin contact. For instance, one person stands with his/her hands palm up, and the their partner places his/her hands on it, palms down. The person with their palms up then tries to affect his/her partner's balance by moving. If "uke" feels anything, they're free to just move their hands. I've been thrown this way in the past. I've shown this exercise (or, at least, my interpretation thereof) where I currently train.

I never got to feel him, but from those who have, I heard that Yamaguchi sensei used to have hands that felt "sticky." Without him gripping, he was able to affect people through this sort of soft yet compelling hands. I have felt students on his (who are now shihan) who do this sort of thing.

Of course, this doesn't mean that this it the only way that we practice. As you mentioned before, Aikikai is an organization, not a style. There are those out there who do use a rather strong, "crushing" grip. We do it at times, too.

But, to say that no one outside of Ki Society or any one group doesn't practice in the manner that you outline is, I think, painting with a rather broad brush...

Just my thoughts.

-- Jun
That's the way I understood it, Jun. I would add that when Ted talks about relaxed extension automatically taking up the slack, it very much fits with what Yamaguchi Sensei said about no technique should take more effort than the weight of the arms resting on the partner.

Saotome Sensei seldom grips you, unless it is a technique like yonkyo... his touch is light and he gives direction to the movement with his hips and legs, not the arms. At any instant he is capable of throwing an atemi, which is true of Ikeda Sensei as well. Anothe one who put emphasis on this principle was the elder Osawa Sensei. There is quite a bit of his movement that one can see in Saotome Sensei.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2004, 07:09 AM   #4
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
Location: Three Lakes WI/ Mishima Japan
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 837
Offline
Re: Taking Up Slack

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
[*]In the Ki Society ukes are trained to hold softly since it is the strongest attack.[*]In most Aikikai dojos ukes are trained to hold hard (tightly) since this was the advice the founder gave all his ukes at Hombu dojo.
When I was training at the Aikikai Honbu a few years back, I got a chance to take part in a koushukai at the Kinokenkyukai Honbu in Shinjuku with Tohei Sensei. I was a bit surprised when the various young yudansha I trained with grabbed me quite hard. I rarely was grabbed that way "back home."

Charles Hill
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2004, 07:19 PM   #5
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,902
United_States
Offline
Re: Taking Up Slack

Phong Sensei of Tenshinkai (Aikikai) Aikido is always reminding us to take up the slack and keep the momentum taunt.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2004, 08:48 PM   #6
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Taking Up Slack

Not wanting to get in between the Ki Society/Aikikai tango here (God knows we're already the Aiki-heathen ) but returning to something that Craig said in the "kotegaeshi weakness" post - doesn't the application and maintenance of effective kuzushi automatically take up any slack that exists on the attacking limb while one applies technique?

In our training the ability to eliminate holes for Uke to recover (especially in the form of things like slack) is very important in making technique effective. However, we don't exaclty focus on this "taking up of slack" concept as it's contained in the practice of creating and maintaining kuzushi.

Just a thought I had.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2004, 11:31 PM   #7
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,038
United_States
Offline
Re: Taking Up Slack

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
doesn't the application and maintenance of effective kuzushi automatically take up any slack that exists on the attacking limb while one applies technique?
sort of like focusing on different parts of the elephant.

taking up and not allowing slack allows (is necessary?) application and maintenance of kuzushi

and application and maintenance of kuzushi involves taking up and not allowing slack.


now you can also talk about the rest of the elephant.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 09:02 AM   #8
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Re: Taking Up Slack

6 of one, half a dozen of the other Craig.

Iow, as I gathered from your post on the kotegaeshi thread, if one has the kuzushi correct then there should not be a problem of taking up slack... on the reverse side, if one focuses on taking up the slack, then the resultant kuzushi should be effective and correct. Makes sense to me.

Imo kuzushi should be applied instinctively like the rest of any effective technique (preferably during the avoidance phase), so I guess the practice of effective kuzushi drills can deal with someone's inability to take up slack in his/her basic technique.

Just some thoughts.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2004, 01:23 PM   #9
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,038
United_States
Offline
Re: Taking Up Slack

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Imo kuzushi should be applied instinctively like the rest of any effective technique (preferably during the avoidance phase), so I guess the practice of effective kuzushi drills can deal with someone's inability to take up slack in his/her basic technique.
of course "effective" being the operative word through all of this.
While I would never say there is only one way to teach something, most of
the disagreements lie in what are the most effective ways to teach this.

in my personal opinion the best teachers are really heretics at their core when it comes down to an individual student.

  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ueshiba taking Ukemi Ellis Amdur General 200 03-27-2007 04:40 PM
Taking the high road Casey Martinson General 50 01-23-2005 06:42 PM
Taking Breakfalls on a Hard Surface Jeff Stallard General 3 07-28-2004 02:10 PM
Getting racked taking ukemi.... stern9631 Training 16 07-24-2004 12:56 PM
Taking ukemi from your instructor guest1234 General 10 05-11-2001 06:22 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:40 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate