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09-20-2002, 05:31 PM
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#51
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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I really can't believe that Mr.Linden is being compared to the KKK. There is no similarity at all. The KKK was spawned from hate, Mr. Linden's dojo is just a place for men to get together and enjoy themselves and train. He already stated that the wives and children are expected to attend a few get togethers if possible, and that a couple female senseis have taught there and other women have visited as well, so obviously it has nothing to do with hating women. Why is it some women feel that they have to do everything with men, that if the men wish to have a male only club of any sort that it is degrading to women? My mother goes out on a regular basis with other retired teachers, and no one else is invited to go along, including their friends who still teach, is that offensive? Is it degrading to people who were never teachers? When I lived in Ottawa, some of my friends and I would get together on a regular basis for a girls night out, men be they boyfriends or husbands, were not welcome, it certainly never bothered the men, in fact they were probably happy to see us go And I really miss those evenings, and I'm not a man hater. It sounds to me as if Mr.Linden's dojo is a place for men to relax and socialize with each other, not just to train, and for that some of you condemn him, consider him as loathsome as the KKK, or ban him from your own dojo? Don't you think that is a bit much?
Last edited by Kat.C : 09-20-2002 at 05:33 PM.
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Kat
I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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09-20-2002, 05:39 PM
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#52
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Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
Location: Orlando
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 159
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Interesting. I wasn't sure that anyone would understand all that I said. It is probably a lot like teaching a white belt, a shodan or a sandan. The truth is that each person hears what he wants and responds to what pushes his button.
This is about choice. About self awareness and self knowledge. About choosing to preserve something that is rapidly going by the way. And about personal happiness. C'mon women, it's only for a few hours a week. Let my people go. But seriously...
I have a number of Jewish students. I have Russians, Syrians, Irish, Catholic, Japanese, Protestant, white, black and Hindu. And you know the funny thing? They all have the ability to go train at any of the 6 or 7 other dojos in Orlando but they choose to come here. According to what has been posted, well, lets see:
I read the word bigot. I read mysoginist. I read bitter. I read angry. I read a lot of things from a lot of people who clearly are not in my peer group and who really cannot judge me. Nor should they try.
What it comes down to my friends is pesonal freedom. You join an aikido dojo for lot of reasons. When someone wants to come here we start with an interview. He has the choice to participate or not. I have the choice to invite him to watch a class. We both, then have the choice to decide if we want to train together. Sometimes we don't agree and as it is my dojo, I always win these disagreements. That is as it should be.
I still believe in personal freedom and in a man's choice to make his own decision about what concerns him. Sort of like O'Sensei. Do you folks really believe that he would train just anyone who walked up and said "here's my money, gimme aikido!"?
Or Mitsugi Saotome Shihan. He sends out personal invitations to his top 20 instructors each year and all head down to Sarasota and train at the Shihan taining facility. Simply put, if you are not invited - dont come. It is Sensei's choice who he wants on his mat. He has the freedom to choose.
All the angry women in this world can train in every other aikido dojo, anywhere. The non-angry ones too. As was asked by someone, why would you want to? We train hard here and it not about love. Did I mention that I have a waiting list to join this dojo? Those people are exercising their right to express personal freedom. Just like I did in my last post.
Perhaps 'they' will all end up here. Good for you , good for me. I'm sorry I made some of you so angry or that you seemed to be hurt by my desire to associate with whomever I chose to the exclusion of an entire gender, but that is my right. I earned it.
I am what is known as a man's man. It is kind of an archaic term, usually associated with John Wayne and the like who believe that things like honor and friendship and trust and loyalty are more important than paying lip service to whatever is currently popular. And I understand that there are some who do not feel comfortable with ideas like that. I hope 'They' will all stay and train at your dojo. It is why I train in aikido, a place where personal freedom and personal expression is honored and respected.
I like women. I just don't like training them. They constantly whine about one thing or another and if they're cute then the guys are like a pack of dogs. I have had too many occasions when a wife stared to cry because her husband did something because... something happened at home last night. I have had too many couples walk out not speaking to each other. I have had too damn many guy posturing over some woman on the mat who did a nikkyo pin too long with some other guy.
I no longer have that. I have wa. There is harmony on my mat and the only thing we argue about is who will buy the beer.
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Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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09-20-2002, 06:06 PM
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#53
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Location: New York
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 164
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Kathryn,
Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
I really can't believe that Mr.Linden is being compared to the KKK.
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It was a question, not a statement, although it was asked to express a certain point. We're having a discussion, and I think it is normal to ask questions, giving the opponent the chance to explain his/her position and, if possible, prove me wrong.
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Why is it some women feel that they have to do everything with men, that if the men wish to have a male only club of any sort that it is degrading to women?
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In my opinion, the degrading part wasn't the fact of segregation but the way in which it was presented and argumented.
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...for that some of you condemn him, consider him as loathsome as the KKK, or ban him from your own dojo? Don't you think that is a bit much?
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I readily concede that my comment about gathering all "those" in Mr. Linden's dojo was inapropriate and basically used the same sort of logic. However, I still maintain that some notions in Mr. Linden's responses were beyond "a place for men to socialize and relax". If you choose to ignore them, that's your choice.
I wasn't trying to show that Mr. Linden is a racist. I was asking a question whether the same type of logic can be applied in this case. Mr. Linden replied that he has representatives of different ethnic groups in his dojo - good for him. That's not the point. Also, I don't see how the analogy with a certain Sensei choosing students for a practice works here. This seems to be a professional decision based solely on one's abilities in Aikido. If it happens to be that this Sensei also chooses not to invite women to these sessions - that changes the situation completely.
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Daniel
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09-20-2002, 06:18 PM
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#54
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Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
Location: Orlando
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 159
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Okay, okay, anyone who gets me that right deserves a chance. I'll ask my wife.
Kathryn, you can come train here if you ever get to Orlando for a family vacation. Give me a couple days notice...
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Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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09-20-2002, 06:50 PM
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#55
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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Quote:
Deb Fisher wrote:
Why is your dojo any different from a country club that won't admit black people or Jews? Why is exclusivity as you define it worth preserving?
I don't know whether to laugh or cry... this explication as comical as it is repulsive. I guess I can only thank my lucky stars that this romantic, furtive world, with its Byzantine structure of Places For Men and Hiding From Women has never reared its ugly, frightened little head on any of the hunting trips or skinny dippin' sessions I cherished as a youth. Ozzie and Harriet meets Robert Bly...
truly sublime, truly unreal.
If you ever decide that shutting out slightly over half of the population (even periodically) is an incomplete, unenlightened way to live, feel free to join the rest of us out here in the real world. Most people think of women as actual human beings with very diverse capabilities and ranges of experience these days.
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Deb, I'm just curious as to why it bothers you so much that Mr.Linden and his dojo members want to enjoy some time without women.
Men and women really are different which is good. But it also means that we can find the other sex aggravating. Of course there have been occasions when I've enjoyed hanging out with just the guys, it is a completely different experience and one I truly enjoy whenever I get the chance.
For quite a few years my father was a member of the Kinsmen and my mother a member of the Kinettes, do groups such as these bother you as well, I mean its basically the same as Mr. Lindens club. I don't think that groups like these or retreats that cater to women or to men are organised out of fear of the opposite sex, just as a break form them.
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Kat
I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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09-20-2002, 07:09 PM
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#56
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Location: GA, USA
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 11
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Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
I still believe in personal freedom and in a man's choice to make his own decision about what concerns him.
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Sure you do. But you chose to enumerate your reasons in a public forum, and you chose to enumerate those reasons in such a way that it was clear you have bigoted views about women and gays.
Since it was your choice to do these things, then you should not be surprised that some people will quesion you.
Quote:
Sort of like O'Sensei. Do you folks really believe that he would train just anyone who walked up and said "here's my money, gimme aikido!"?
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I dunno, but all I read about the man suggests that he'd have sounder reasons for excluding women beyond "women whine constantly and I imagine myself like John Wayne."
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Or Mitsugi Saotome Shihan. He sends out personal invitations to his top 20 instructors each year and all head down to Sarasota and train at the Shihan taining facility. Simply put, if you are not invited - dont come. It is Sensei's choice who he wants on his mat. He has the freedom to choose.
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Does he exclude women?
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I am what is known as a man's man. It is kind of an archaic term, usually associated with John Wayne and the like who believe that things like honor and friendship and trust and loyalty are more important than paying lip service to whatever is currently popular.
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I take exception to the characterization that "honor and friendship" and the female sex are somehow mutually exlusive. Not that you care, of course ... after all I am just a woman.
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I like women. I just don't like training them. They constantly whine about one thing or another
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Hmmmm.
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and if they're cute then the guys are like a pack of dogs. I have had too many occasions when a wife stared to cry because her husband did something because... something happened at home last night. I have had too many couples walk out not speaking to each other. I have had too damn many guy posturing over some woman on the mat who did a nikkyo pin too long with some other guy.
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So you had discipline problems, and so you chose to blame it entirely on the women. I see.
Your choice, your happiness. But as long as you post in public forums your "man's man" reasoning, your choice is fair game for criticism. And I don't care about the choice itself ... it's the reasoning that I find abhorrant.
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09-20-2002, 07:17 PM
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#57
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
Kathryn,
It was a question, not a statement, although it was asked to express a certain point. We're having a discussion, and I think it is normal to ask questions, giving the opponent the chance to explain his/her position and, if possible, prove me wrong.
In my opinion, the degrading part wasn't the fact of segregation but the way in which it was presented and argumented.
I readily concede that my comment about gathering all "those" in Mr. Linden's dojo was inapropriate and basically used the same sort of logic. However, I still maintain that some notions in Mr. Linden's responses were beyond "a place for men to socialize and relax". If you choose to ignore them, that's your choice.
I wasn't trying to show that Mr. Linden is a racist. I was asking a question whether the same type of logic can be applied in this case. Mr. Linden replied that he has representatives of different ethnic groups in his dojo - good for him. That's not the point. Also, I don't see how the analogy with a certain Sensei choosing students for a practice works here. This seems to be a professional decision based solely on one's abilities in Aikido. If it happens to be that this Sensei also chooses not to invite women to these sessions - that changes the situation completely.
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Daniel,
I hope it didn't seem that all my comments were directed to you, they really weren't. And I know you phrased your KKK comment as a question but it seemed to me as if you were implying a similarity between that organization and Mr. Linden's club. And I really wasn't trying to critisize you for asking questions I just thought that your comparison was a bit extreme. A desire to do things without women isn't the same as hatred of another race.
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Kat
I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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09-20-2002, 07:38 PM
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#58
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Location: New York
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 164
Offline
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Kathryn,
Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
I know you phrased your KKK comment as a question but it seemed to me as if you were implying a similarity between that organization and Mr. Linden's club.
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I indeed implied the similarity, but not with Mr. Linden's club, but with his arguments (please see my post #31 in this thread). I was just surprised that you didn't address this in your response. But, as Opher mentioned, it wasn't too obvious in the first place.
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Daniel
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09-20-2002, 07:40 PM
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#59
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
Okay, okay, anyone who gets me that right deserves a chance. I'll ask my wife.
Kathryn, you can come train here if you ever get to Orlando for a family vacation. Give me a couple days notice...
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Really?! That would be wonderful. (I nearly missed reading this as I kept getting disconnected while making my other posts).
I'm not sure what all you'd let me do but out of the things you listed that you offer the guys, the only ones I don't have an interest in are woodcarving and butchering a hog. Still just going there to train sounds appealing, so thank you very much for the invitation, I hope it's still in effect when I get to the States again.
PS I don't have a Master's degree in anything though .
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Kat
I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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09-20-2002, 07:50 PM
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#60
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
Kathryn,
I indeed implied the similarity, but not with Mr. Linden's club, but with his arguments (please see my post #31 in this thread). I was just surprised that you didn't address this in your response. But, as Opher mentioned, it wasn't too obvious in the first place.
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Well I understood what he meant, but it really doesn't have anything to do with why his dojo is closed to women. Mr.Linden was just responding to a question someone asked of him.
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Kat
I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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09-20-2002, 08:03 PM
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#61
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
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Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
Daniel,
I hope it didn't seem that all my comments were directed to you, they really weren't. And I know you phrased your KKK comment as a question but it seemed to me as if you were implying a similarity between that organization and Mr. Linden's club. And I really wasn't trying to critisize you for asking questions I just thought that your comparison was a bit extreme. A desire to do things without women isn't the same as hatred of another race.
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No it isn't, although I note that the argument he uses is very similar to that used by people like David Duke - not anti-black, just "pro-white".
Personally, I don't miss segregation by sex and don't particularly feel that it ought to be encouraged. OTOH, I also feel that he ought to be able to form an exclusive training group if that's what he really wants. I would think that he might be on shakey ground legally if it were ever challenged, but I suppose that's another thread .
Best,
Chris
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09-20-2002, 09:52 PM
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#62
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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Quote:
Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
No it isn't, although I note that the argument he uses is very similar to that used by people like David Duke - not anti-black, just "pro-white".
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I must be missing something, I don't see the correlation between the two. Mr.Linden just wants to enjoy his men only time,as many men I know do, whereas David Duke's beliefs are a part of him, fully integrated into his life. I'm not sure I've worded this well at all. Let me ask you this; do you think that my desire to have girl only times makes me like David Duke?
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Personally, I don't miss segregation by sex and don't particularly feel that it ought to be encouraged. OTOH, I also feel that he ought to be able to form an exclusive training group if that's what he really wants. I would think that he might be on shakey ground legally if it were ever challenged, but I suppose that's another thread .
Best,
Chris
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Well most of the time I'm with both men and women, but there are times I'd like to be with just other women, times with just some friends who are guys, and times by myself. To me its just a natural inclination. (There are even times when I'd just rather be with my pets, no other humans). The social interaction of men and is quite different most of the time. And yes, I know it varies by individuals as well, but women and men think differently, and that does affect the way we all interact. Well, that's what I've found anyway and I really enjoy the differences.
Well, there are times when men are irritating because they don't think right!
As for the legality of it well, what would be the point of challenging it, that would be pretty mean, some guys are just getting together to train, let them.
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Kat
I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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09-20-2002, 09:58 PM
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#63
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Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,308
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Here in Japan, the only separate sex aikido dojos are those attached to single sex private colleges, where the general public are not admitted anyway. There is one women's class in the Aikikai Hombu, though, interestingly, the instructors are male despite the fact that there is a female shihan in the Hombu's Shidou-bu.
I have never come across a dojo of the type that Mr Linden runs and even the Founder had women students in the Kobukan Dojo, who trained on an equal footing with the male students.
I would also think that even the notions of personal freedom might well vary with the culture. Though the notion of human rights has come more into prominence here recently, I think that the idea of individual freedom based on a certain concept of the individual to do as he or she wishes is accorded some lip service here, since Japan considers itself democratic, but is not really deeply ingrained. This does not, of course, affect Mr Linden's freedom to run his dojo as he wishes. Simply, it might be more difficult for me to do something similar here if I wanted to.
In any case, I personally believe that is essential to aikido training that men and women train together. Physical differences have an obvious effect on training and it is essential that both sexes become aware both of these differences and how to deal with them during training. My dojo population is currently about 50/50 male/female and everthing works very well.
Best regards,
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P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Kokusai Dojo,
Hiroshima,
Japan
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09-20-2002, 10:13 PM
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#64
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Location: New York
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 164
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I might have taken the analogies with racism to an extreme... So here's a more lighthearted one that's just occured to me (knowledge of Seinfeld req'd) - the Soup Nazi
He had lines (waiting lists) too...
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Daniel
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09-20-2002, 10:19 PM
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#65
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
I might have taken the analogies with racism to an extreme... So here's a more lighthearted one that's just occured to me (knowledge of Seinfeld req'd) - the Soup Nazi
He had lines (waiting lists) too...
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Soup Nazi? I've seen Seinfeld but I didn't get this at all.
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Kat
I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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09-20-2002, 10:22 PM
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#66
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
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Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
I must be missing something, I don't see the correlation between the two. Mr.Linden just wants to enjoy his men only time,as many men I know do, whereas David Duke's beliefs are a part of him, fully integrated into his life. I'm not sure I've worded this well at all. Let me ask you this; do you think that my desire to have girl only times makes me like David Duke?
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Well, if you created a formal girls only organization then I would say yes, the reasoning is similar. You're creating an exclusive club whose membership is based on a genetic (and generally speaking, immutable) characteristic. Now, I venture to say that your intent in forming the group and the result of its activities would probably not be as destructive as David Duke's are, but it's still gender based discrimination. Now, contrast that with, for example, the requirement for a master's degree. I may not have one, but I could go out and get one if I had sufficient motivation. There's a world of difference there.
Suppose I said that I had a desire to have "white only" times? Would that be different then "girl only" times? If so, then why?
Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
As for the legality of it well, what would be the point of challenging it, that would be pretty mean, some guys are just getting together to train, let them.
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I wasn't advocating any kind of legal challenge - as I said in my post,"I also feel that he ought to be able to form an exclusive training group if that's what he really wants", but you probably know as well as I do that in the US these things often come around anyway, like it or not.
Best,
Chris
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09-20-2002, 10:28 PM
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#68
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Location: Bangkok
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 803
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It's so surprising for me to see the extent of reactions to Mr. Linden's posts. I think things have been too exagerated. I really respect Kat.C position as a mature open-minded adult. I don't like the self-righteousness of some posts at all. The good thing about aikido is its versatility and and the availability of so many different styles and principles. I personally feel that Mr. Linden's dojo is quite interesting. If there was one like that in my area, I would definitely practice there from time to time (if I was accepted, that is ), but I will not drop the mixed dojos neither. Both present certain benefits, and it's good to be able to do both.
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09-20-2002, 10:48 PM
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#69
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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Quote:
Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
Well, if you created a formal girls only organization then I would say yes, the reasoning is similar. You're creating an exclusive club whose membership is based on a genetic (and generally speaking, immutable) characteristic. Now, I venture to say that your intent in forming the group and the result of its activities would probably not be as destructive as David Duke's are, but it's still gender based discrimination. Now, contrast that with, for example, the requirement for a master's degree. I may not have one, but I could go out and get one if I had sufficient motivation. There's a world of difference there.
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So Brownies, Guides, Pathfinders, Linx, Beavers, Scouts and all the ones I missed are comparable to The David Dukes of this world? Do you think groups like these are wrong?
Do you think as long as a requirement can be met by anyone that it is okay? In that case one could go out and have a sex change.
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Suppose I said that I had a desire to have "white only" times? Would that be different then "girl only" times? If so, then why?
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Okay I'm going to try to explain why I feel it is very different. So far as I know the colour of ones skin doesn't contribute to the thought process or any such thing. In the case of men and women there have been studies done showing the different ways our brains work. I don't believe skin colour does that, my thought paths certainly don't change when I get a tan. Well I'm not really satisfied with how I've explained what I mean but I hope it's relatively clear.
Quote:
I wasn't advocating any kind of legal challenge - as I said in my post,"I also feel that he ought to be able to form an exclusive training group if that's what he really wants", but you probably know as well as I do that in the US these things often come around anyway, like it or not.
Best,
Chris
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I know you weren't advocating legal action, sorry about that, I don't seem to be wording things too well. And yes I know how it is in the States with things like this.
Last edited by Kat.C : 09-20-2002 at 10:50 PM.
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Kat
I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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09-20-2002, 10:54 PM
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#70
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
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Well it might have, except I couldn't access the page.
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Kat
I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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09-20-2002, 11:17 PM
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#71
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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Quote:
Edward Karaa (Edward) wrote:
It's so surprising for me to see the extent of reactions to Mr. Linden's posts. I think things have been too exagerated. I really respect Kat.C position as a mature open-minded adult.
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Thanks Edward, I was beginning to feel like a social pariah!
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I don't like the self-righteousness of some posts at all. The good thing about aikido is its versatility and and the availability of so many different styles and principles. I personally feel that Mr. Linden's dojo is quite interesting. If there was one like that in my area, I would definitely practice there from time to time (if I was accepted, that is ), but I will not drop the mixed dojos neither. Both present certain benefits, and it's good to be able to do both.
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Well said.
I know my husband would enjoy being able to train at such a dojo as well as our regular one too.
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Kat
I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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09-20-2002, 11:19 PM
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#72
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
Offline
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Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
So Brownies, Guides, Pathfinders, Linx, Beavers, Scouts and all the ones I missed are comparable to The David Dukes of this world? Do you think groups like these are wrong?
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Well yes, they are the same in that they participate in discrimination. And yes, I think that they are wrong in that aspect of their activities. I also note that are a number of co-ed boy scout (and other) groups now.
Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
Do you think as long as a requirement can be met by anyone that it is okay? In that case one could go out and have a sex change.
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Generally speaking, yes. Put it this way - do you think that discriminating on the basis of skin color would be ok even though it's possible to change the color of your skin through medical procedures?
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Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
Okay I'm going to try to explain why I feel it is very different. So far as I know the colour of ones skin doesn't contribute to the thought process or any such thing. In the case of men and women there have been studies done showing the different ways our brains work. I don't believe skin colour does that, my thought paths certainly don't change when I get a tan. Well I'm not really satisfied with how I've explained what I mean but I hope it's relatively clear.
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Historically, women have fought hard to break away from the "biology is destiny" argument that locked them in the kitchen and out of math and science classes (among other things). I always find it kind of sad that many women now bring up essentially the same argument to bolster their own arguments. No offence intended, of course.
Best,
Chris
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09-21-2002, 12:03 AM
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#73
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
Offline
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Quote:
Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
Well yes, they are the same in that they participate in discrimination. And yes, I think that they are wrong in that aspect of their activities. I also note that are a number of co-ed boy scout (and other) groups now.
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So scouts are misogynists?
What is wrong about this type of discrimination as it is not preventing either sex from doing the related activities? They all go camping, they all earn merit badges etc. I guess alot can depend on a persons definition of discrimination, it means to treat someone differently based on things other than personal merit, not necessarily treat them better or worse just differently. Women and men are different why do we need to be treated exactly the same.
Quote:
Generally speaking, yes. Put it this way - do you think that discriminating on the basis of skin color would be ok even though it's possible to change the color of your skin through medical procedures?
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I don't agree with discriminating due to skin colour at all there is no logic to it, and it is done from hatred.
Quote:
Historically, women have fought hard to break away from the "biology is destiny" argument that locked them in the kitchen and out of math and science classes (among other things). I always find it kind of sad that many women now bring up essentially the same argument to bolster their own arguments. No offence intended, of course.
Best,
Chris
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Wait, I'm talking the different parts of the brain being active for different things not that womens brains dictate that we are only good in the kitchen! It's 3 in the morning here and I can't think of where any of the stuff is that I'm talking about. It's to do with different parts of the brain being active for the same thing in men than in women. Umm that's a bit confusing isn't it?
Okay a picture would show that in a situation a part A of the mans brain is active whereas in the womens brain it's a different part. Did that make sense? I don't mean that we can't do the same things that men do just that our brains function differently, not better or worse.
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Kat
I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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09-21-2002, 12:40 AM
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#74
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
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Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
So scouts are misogynists?
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No they're not, that's why they're going co-ed .
Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
What is wrong about this type of discrimination as it is not preventing either sex from doing the related activities? They all go camping, they all earn merit badges etc. I guess alot can depend on a persons definition of discrimination, it means to treat someone differently based on things other than personal merit, not necessarily treat them better or worse just differently. Women and men are different why do we need to be treated exactly the same.
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Seperate but equal? Seperate drinking fountains for coloreds must be fine then - there's nothing stopping them both from drinking water, after all...
I'm not talking about treating people the same, I'm talking about giving people the same access, the same opportunities - what happens after that ought to, IMO, depend upon the individual, and nothing else.
Quote:
Kathryn Cole (Kat.C) wrote:
Wait, I'm talking the different parts of the brain being active for different things not that womens brains dictate that we are only good in the kitchen!
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Because it's convenient for your point of view. The argument itself, that biology is destiny and women and men are by their nature suited for different activities is exactly the same one that was used by men to justify locking women out of certain areas of society.
OK, so if brains function differently and it's OK to shut people in or out of certain groups because of that then why wouldn't it be wrong to (for example) shut women out of a mathematics class (since women have demonstrably lower scores in mathematics) because of their gender?
Best,
Chris
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09-21-2002, 07:28 AM
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#75
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Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
Location: Orlando
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 159
Offline
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I can't remember when I've enjoyed a discussion so much. The passion, the deep emotions. Good for all of us.
However, my wife just handed me a list that includes rewiring the back porch, digging the fall garden and painting the kitchen. Yes Dear, I'll be glad to.
I like women and to be compared to the KKK or David Duke, to be called a mysogonist and describerd by words like 'hate' or 'bigot' is really unworthy of those who did so. I really expect more from Aikidoka. It really is about being comfortable with the person who you are and the decisions you make. A strong man listens and nods or shrugs. To be attacked by an 'aikidoka' over some decision made hundreds of miles away by someone you don't know concerning people you will never meet, well I admire your youthful zeal and salute it. Just don't ever make the mistake of calling me a racist or bigot or such to my face. But then you wouldn't would you?
Once you wake up and realize that forty years of martial training is done and over and that there are many fewer days ahead than behind you just don't want to waste your time. I like to train people with master's degrees because they usually do very well. They have demonstrated that they know how to set a goal and that they have the perserverance to maintain the course. If I had to beg and advertise to keep the doors open I might choose a different tack but I don't.
I train men because I disagree with a lot that has been said about the benefit of taining with women. Lets save that for another string when I get my chores done. All my students go to seminars and train with women. I teach seminars and women come and thats fine. For day to day, well, it is my choice how I want to spend my old age.
I really admire you all for your impassioned response both for and against my position. But of course, regardless, I will do what I want. I learned a long time ago that absolutes in sociology are nonsense.
I hope you all fare well.
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Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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