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Old 03-23-2011, 07:11 PM   #51
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
Location: Sainte-Catherine-de-la-J.-C., Québec
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Dave,

I don't know what David will think, and I have a feeling I'll regret this, but compare Tissier's irimi nage with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrje...eature=related

In Tissier's case he lets uke come back up and then goes straight against his head. Claude works on keeping uke off balance from start to finish. In this example he is taking his time to show the controls he is using to off-balance uke. I have taken ukemi from irimi nage from both these shihans in slow step by step beginner classes. Tissier practically tore my head off by asking me to stand strong then going right against my head/neck. With Claude it was more like being held in a vice as he stopped me in the middle of the throw kept me dangling there off balance as he explained the movement and then threw me.

PS - I think Claude's uke has great looking ukemi. I wouldn't use the term beautiful ukemi to describe the thigs I don't like, but then I'm not David.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:48 PM   #52
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Here I'll stick my neck out a little further. From 1:40 to 2:20 on this clip (my shodan exam), you can see the ukemi part of test as Skip Chapman tosses me around :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kz18R8Q4xY

Tell me what you think and I'll see if it fits my memory (which is mostly that it happened so fast and I was so stressed at being up there testing that I don't remember much except initiating attacks then hitting the mat).

Jonathan Olson
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:19 PM   #53
Basia Halliop
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

"Beautiful" is very subjective, though. What one person finds beautiful might not be what another does, even from an aesthetic standpoint.

For me 'beautiful' ukemi is when I see people unexpectedly getting their feet really swept out from under them or unbalanced in some other way, and yet they manage somehow to land without any harm and pop back up quickly and smoothly to attack again. Whenever I see that I admire it... and I don't find from my experience that it does 'look ugly' even from a purely aesthetic standpoint. But the aesthetics follows the function rather than the other way around.
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Old 03-24-2011, 01:46 AM   #54
Bratislav
 
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

It is very difficult to find the right measure...

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Old 03-24-2011, 02:14 AM   #55
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
Jonathan Olson wrote: View Post
Tissier practically tore my head off by asking me to stand strong then ...
...
With Claude it was more like being held in a vice as he stopped me in the middle of the throw kept me dangling there off balance as he explained ...
Just different points of interest ...
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:47 AM   #56
senshincenter
 
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
if I may paraphrase? : that ukemi based on big swooping rolls either requires a nage who can actually overpower uke rather than achieve kuzushi, or else for uke to make a decision to disconnect and take such a lovely roll.
Perfect. Yes.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:19 PM   #57
senshincenter
 
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
"Beautiful" is very subjective, though. What one person finds beautiful might not be what another does, even from an aesthetic standpoint.
This is true. So, for the sake of discussion, let's say we are talking about that front breakfall from Irimi Nage.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:29 PM   #58
JO
Dojo: Aikikai de l'Université Laval
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
This is true. So, for the sake of discussion, let's say we are talking about that front breakfall from Irimi Nage.
I like Janet's wording better.

A front breakfall from irimi nage can make martial sense if uke manages to partially free himself and turns towards nage. This happens to me as nage often enough (not so much as uke as this is not the way I usually turn if I counter).

My feeling is that the pretty breakfall from a stable standing position comes from bad habits carrying over from teching beginners how to fall. A lot of throws in aikido have very open endings where uke is launched and then has to fend for himself as nage is no longer in contact to guide the fall. This is very scary for most beginners, so we tend to let them lign themselves up, tell them to be upright and light (helps for a smooth landing as opposed to crashing in a ball, or on your head) and then we go through the motions of throwing them.

Then we trade places and much the same happens with the advanced person as uke since the beginner has little hope of pulling off a real throw, we position ourselves to fall and go through the motions.

This isn't so bad for a start. But if you are still doing this with more advanced students (say anybody fourth kyu and up), then your pretty much just dancing, each person taking turns being the lead.

One thing I try to do to avoid this trap is that when just going through the motions, I put myself in an unbalanced, about to fall position and try to have the learning nage place themselve in a position to do the final push just as if they had got me there against my will. When it's my time as nage I have more trouble, it's really hard to throw someone outwards and have them land safely if they don't yet have the skill to land or roll safely (I've sent a few beginners flat onto their backs or stumbling into the walls, which I really try to avoid). Mostly you have to stop and let them take self controlled ukemi and wait until they get better.

Jonathan Olson
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Old 03-29-2011, 12:39 PM   #59
Jaon Deatherage
 
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Ukemi is where a great deal of Aikido's content lies....it would be a shame to cheat ourselves of such learning by cultivating bad ukemi, whether it is too compliant or too resistant.

All that can be done about poor ukemi is to work hard not to do it ourselves....
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