Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Open Discussions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-23-2007, 11:06 PM   #51
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 429
United_States
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

http://tinyurl.com/2qlbp9

"In Florida, for example, permit holders are about 300 times less
likely to perpetrate a gun crime than Floridians without permits."

http://tinyurl.com/2v285e

"According to the National Center for Policy Analysis, who conducted
a study of Texas concealed carry revocation rates in the year 2000,
Texas concealed carry holders proved to be 5.7 times less likely to
commit a violent crime, and 14 times less likely to commit a
non-violent offense.

This is what I do find somewhat disconcerting about those who are nervous around concealed permit holders. If someone has a permit, due to the background checks involved, you know that they lack a criminal history, and if those stats are true, they are highly unlikely to commit a crime compared to the general public.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2007, 11:38 PM   #52
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
This is what I do find somewhat disconcerting about those who are nervous around concealed permit holders. If someone has a permit, due to the background checks involved, you know that they lack a criminal history, and if those stats are true, they are highly unlikely to commit a crime compared to the general public.
I have a problem with the idea of guns as a cureall for personal and public security. Since your 2nd article was inspired by the VA Tech shootings, let's start there.

What could have been more of a preventative to VA-Tech massacres, than if the student-body were concealed permit-holders?

How about listening to the teachers and counselors who were giving off early-warnings about the shooter?

Katherine Newman on "Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings"

Quote:
AMY GOODMAN: And talk about the information we now have on how the university, how individual professors, particularly the English department, the chair of the English department, professors like Nikki Giovanni, the well-known poet and writer, had been seeking help for this young man for quite some time, had understood from the plays that he had written how violent he was, the turmoil inside.

KATHERINE NEWMAN: The most tragic thing about the Virginia Tech case is that Cho was on everyone's radar screen. That is actually quite unusual. And the faculty was very proactive in seeking help for him, in trying to shield other students from his aberrant, violent tendencies. Honestly, I don't think the faculty could have done more than what they did do, and it's tragic that it didn't work, because in most cases faculty are more limited in their actions, but they were aware.

AMY GOODMAN: Explain what they did.

KATHERINE NEWMAN: Well, they first refused to teach him in a setting in which he could continue his violent ideation. They tried then to provide him with individual tutoring, and they did -- the head of the English department did -- to try and both coax him into treatment and to simply assist him in thinking through his situation and trying to calm him down. But most of all, they really tried to get him into mental health treatment. So, too, did his roommate, who called the police and tried to, again, get him into treatment. Everyone who connected with Cho attempted to do something for him to get him treatment or to simply remove him from a situation which they saw as increasingly threatening.

He was ultimately, as you said, diagnosed as a danger to himself and to others, and therein lies a tale we will need to learn more about. Why did that not result in his being sent home for the protection of the rest of the campus? I don't really understand what happened there, because it would seem that the grounds were there to take such a dramatic action. We do protect people's civil liberties, and we don't take them away lightly, but in this particular instance, it would appear there were ample grounds to treat the situation differently.

AMY GOODMAN: I mean, the young women who were concerned when he was stalking them, either physically, individually, or on the internet, and his roommates, when there was concern expressed about this, he was actually taken away, taken from the dorm, taken to a mental institution.

KATHERINE NEWMAN: That's exactly right. But apparently he was ultimately declared treatable on an outpatient basis, and this seems to be the place where everything fell apart. And again, I think there's a great deal we don't know and will need to be investigated thoroughly, because he was so much more prominent on the radar screen than any of the other shooters I've studied, with the possible exception of one in Springfield, Oregon, some years ago, who also was identified and one day away from being involuntarily committed before he shot his parents and others in his school. But Cho was really recognized for the danger he represented, but he was not ultimately segregated in a way that protected people.
But I suppose if I were to talk about it personally: sure, I'm much more comfortable around a permit-carrier with a concealed weapon than not. Still, guns in anyone's hands make me nervous. I think, tho, that we're talking on two different wavelengths...neither of them wrong, as such, just different.

You're looking at the practical nature of guns in the hands of a fully authorized permit carrier; and I am looking at guns as a social and pyschological influence on society.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 09-23-2007 at 11:41 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2007, 07:27 AM   #53
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I have a problem with the idea of guns as a cureall for personal and public security.
Well, I think you'd find that most "pro-gun" people agree with you.
Carrying a gun isn't a cure all for most. It's a last resort that most don't really want to use. And when it comes to life and death, one phrase is oft repeated: I'd rather have a tool and not need it than need it and not have it.

But, as I said, it's last resort. The people that I know who carry also take classes (safety, defensive shooting, etc), read books on all aspects (legal, ethical, etc), and understand that not putting oneself in a bad situation in the first place is number one for safety.

But, things happen. You could be in a McDonalds and someone can come in and open fire. You can be at a University and someone can come in and open fire. If it comes down to life and death ... some people prefer to have a tool to help keep living. Especially since you can't outrun or stop a bullet.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Since your 2nd article was inspired by the VA Tech shootings, let's start there.

What could have been more of a preventative to VA-Tech massacres, than if the student-body were concealed permit-holders?

How about listening to the teachers and counselors who were giving off early-warnings about the shooter?
Sure. Most people agree with you. Something should have been done before. But, you won't catch all of them that way. So, then, what would have been more preventative -- disarming all of the campus or allowing concealed carry on the campus? Did you ever wonder why there's been no psychotic, mass shootings at: an NRA event, a gun show, or anywhere there are multitudes of pro-gun people congregating?

Even though killers like the one at the VA tech school are psychotic, they aren't stupid. They know that to inflict mass damage on that kind of scale, they have to go where there are "no-gun" zones or where someone can't stop them. In other words, schools.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
But I suppose if I were to talk about it personally: sure, I'm much more comfortable around a permit-carrier with a concealed weapon than not. Still, guns in anyone's hands make me nervous. I think, tho, that we're talking on two different wavelengths...neither of them wrong, as such, just different.

You're looking at the practical nature of guns in the hands of a fully authorized permit carrier; and I am looking at guns as a social and pyschological influence on society.
You're in the wrong area, then. Move to West Virginia. Guns are integral to the society. We're a hunting/shooting state. Even our Democratic congress critters understand that they can't be "anti-gun". One fact of life is that if you grow up around guns, the "fear" isn't there. But if you grow up in a place where guns are portrayed as "bad" and are legally outlawed, then the gov't instills a "fear" into its citizenry. It becomes a negative social and psychological influence on society, but only because it is created that way.

IMO,
Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2007, 09:16 AM   #54
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 429
United_States
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Neil, I agree that more could have been done in the past to stop the shooter, and this is a failing in our society which happens again and again and minimal steps are taken to prevent it. for something which the public does seemed concerned about it, it is a curious thing.

Mark does have a valid point though that people in these situations generally choose (there was an incident last year in VA where a gunman choose a police station instead) places where people are unlikely to be armed. The problem is, since we as a society have not taken more steps to prevent these incidents before they occur, what options can be implemented when such an event arises? Clearly better security measures, communication and coodination, but I don't see why one can't take measures for their own self defense.

Even if America became suddenly gun hostile, I would assume unbalanced individuals might do the same as in japan, and have mass knifings.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...129899,00.html

(8 dead, 15 students and 2 teachers injured)

Mark is correct, utilizing a firearm is a last resort.

Neil, I appreciate your honest answers about permit holders. At least online, few people are willing to admit that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2007, 09:26 AM   #55
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Gunheads

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Nothing so concentrates the attention as the almost universally recognized sound of a round being chambered in a pump-action shotgun.....
No, no, Fred.... that just gets their attention. The first round fired into the air has the effect of making everyone listen so intently to what you have to say that it would make a preacher smile.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 05:04 AM   #56
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 319
Japan
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

From discussions I've had with people in the pro- and anti- gun camp, as well as several US citizens who had grown up in homophobic pro-gun homes and changed their minds to become neutral on the issue, I conclude provisionally that both camps have members who have particular fantasies in their heads which when pressed cannot match reality in several critical respects. This to me explains why it is so common to not be able to have constructive discourse, because the critical problems in each fantasy are glaringly obvious to the other camp.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 08:14 AM   #57
Hogan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 106
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
From discussions I've had with ... several US citizens who had grown up in homophobic pro-gun homes ...
That's a large number, is it??
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 03:14 PM   #58
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Well, I think you'd find that most "pro-gun" people agree with you.
Carrying a gun isn't a cure all for most. It's a last resort that most don't really want to use.
It certainly cannot compare with can openers and nonlethal appliances, for our needs in daily life.

I need my car to go to work: but I don't need a gun to keep me safe (at least...so far).

Quote:
And when it comes to life and death, one phrase is oft repeated: I'd rather have a tool and not need it than need it and not have it.
I'd rather have a tool that cannot be used against me, or my loved-ones.

Quote:
Sure. Most people agree with you. Something should have been done before. But, you won't catch all of them that way. So, then, what would have been more preventative -- disarming all of the campus or allowing concealed carry on the campus?
Honestly, IMO? I'd go with choice A. If the guy were never allowed to own a gun, followed up by extensive counselling and occasional searches for those proven to be a danger (I'm not advocating this, as it would be illegal. But, just as a hypothetical)..well there you go. No guns...no widespread massacre.

Quote:
Did you ever wonder why there's been no psychotic, mass shootings at: an NRA event, a gun show, or anywhere there are multitudes of pro-gun people congregating?
There are very few mass-shootings ANYWHERE in the US. The bulk of gun-related deaths are not mass-murders.

Quote:
Even though killers like the one at the VA tech school are psychotic, they aren't stupid. They know that to inflict mass damage on that kind of scale, they have to go where there are "no-gun" zones or where someone can't stop them. In other words, schools.
A determined psyhopath doesn't need a gun to commit mass-murder...viz, the OK city bombings, etc

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Clearly better security measures, communication and coodination, but I don't see why one can't take measures for their own self defense.
Neither do I. We're all MA's, after all. I'm all for self-defence.

But what a lot of you are failing to acknowledge is the militarizing effect of guns upon our society. It also affects how we experience the world. Just look at a 1st person shooter videogame, as a good example. How does a player in "Doom" greet everything he sees?

Rifle-barrel first, locked and loaded.

Quote:
Even if America became suddenly gun hostile,
Highly improbable. The 2nd amendment is likely to be the last civil liberty we lose. It's too encoded in our cultural matrix, to change at the present.

For that to happen, about 20 years (a whole generation) would have to go by without the NRA, Hollywood, or media equating guns with ennobled individualism, much like the article quoted earlier in this thread that I critiqued in post #37.

Quote:
I would assume unbalanced individuals might do the same as in japan, and have mass knifings.
Sorry, but I don't agree. Stories about "mass knifings" in the media
are rare: and I think there's a reason for that. In this society, we don't identify knives with masculine power in the same manner that we do with guns.

Quote:
Neil, I appreciate your honest answers about permit holders. At least online, few people are willing to admit that.
Thank you. Again, I want to reiterate that I am not suggesting that guns be made illegal.

But in the meantime, here's a program to give a little perspective:

Bad Cop No Donut

The tales of gun fatalities inflicted by the police upon us even as they supposedly protect us are sobering.

Quote:
Bad Cop, No Donut! is a weekly radio program and podcast hosted by Ron Anicich and produced at CKLN 88.1 FM in Toronto. Each week the show reviews criminal acts committed by law enforcement as reported in the North American media. The show also frequently features interviews and occasionally reports from other independent journalists and in depth looks at particular issues in policing. Sexual abuse, whistleblower cops, domestic violence, tasers... Bad Cop, No Donut! looks at all of them - and a lot more.

Bad Cop, No Donut! relies on information sent in from our listeners. Please let us know if you have been the victim of police abuse, have any story idea or comments.
Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
From discussions I've had with people in the pro- and anti- gun camp, as well as several US citizens who had grown up in homophobic pro-gun homes and changed their minds to become neutral on the issue, I conclude provisionally that both camps have members who have particular fantasies in their heads which when pressed cannot match reality in several critical respects. This to me explains why it is so common to not be able to have constructive discourse, because the critical problems in each fantasy are glaringly obvious to the other camp.
Good point.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 09-25-2007 at 03:26 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 03:18 PM   #59
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Gunheads

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
No, no, Fred.... that just gets their attention. The first round fired into the air has the effect of making everyone listen so intently to what you have to say that it would make a preacher smile.

Mike
Yes. Especially if the guy is a roofer, eyeing the hole you just made as a potential future contract...
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 04:53 PM   #60
James Davis
 
James Davis's Avatar
Dojo: Ft. Myers School of Aikido
Location: Ft. Myers, FL.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 716
United_States
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post

It certainly cannot compare with can openers and nonlethal appliances, for our needs in daily life.
There's no such thing as a nonlethal appliance; All it takes is a little imagination.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I need my car to go to work: but I don't need a gun to keep me safe (at least...so far).
I'm glad of that.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I'd rather have a tool that cannot be used against me, or my loved-ones.
Suggestions?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Honestly, IMO? I'd go with choice A. If the guy were never allowed to own a gun, followed up by extensive counselling and occasional searches for those proven to be a danger (I'm not advocating this, as it would be illegal. But, just as a hypothetical)..well there you go. No guns...no widespread massacre.
but...
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
A determined psyhopath doesn't need a gun to commit mass-murder...viz, the OK city bombings, etc
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Neither do I. We're all MA's, after all. I'm all for self-defence.
What about defense of others? If my daughter, or some other non-combatant, is with me and we are outnumbered, what can my aikido do to protect them? I say "thin out their numbers".
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
But what a lot of you are failing to acknowledge is the militarizing effect of guns upon our society. It also affects how we experience the world. Just look at a 1st person shooter videogame, as a good example. How does a player in "Doom" greet everything he sees?

Rifle-barrel first, locked and loaded.
If a horned mutant toting a lazer gun is what greets me around the corner, I'm emptying my clip!

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Sorry, but I don't agree. Stories about "mass knifings" in the media
are rare: and I think there's a reason for that. In this society, we don't identify knives with masculine power in the same manner that we do with guns.
We do, however, identify cars with freedom. There are plenty of people out there that, based on their driving, should be taking the bus.
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Again, I want to reiterate that I am not suggesting that guns be made illegal.
Good.
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
The tales of gun fatalities inflicted by the police upon us even as they supposedly protect us are sobering.
So on whom should we depend for protection...?

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 05:23 PM   #61
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
There's no such thing as a nonlethal appliance; All it takes is a little imagination.
Point.

But I feel less threatened by a man coming at me with a can opener than with a .45.

Quote:
Suggestions?
Again, a bokken works.

Quote:
What about defense of others? If my daughter, or some other non-combatant, is with me and we are outnumbered, what can my aikido do to protect them? I say "thin out their numbers".
We've gone over this already. I am not comforted by the use of a firearm to protect others: too much of a possibility to accidentally injure passersby.

You feel differently. I can respect that.

Quote:
If a horned mutant toting a lazer gun is what greets me around the corner, I'm emptying my clip!
"PEOPLE OF EARTH!

I'VE COME A LONG WAY TO GIVE YOU THIS MESSAGE!!!

THIS UNIQUE and attractive POTATO SHREDDER IS for YOU!!!"

"GUN!!!!" Blam! Blam!

Quote:
We do, however, identify cars with freedom.
You might ALSO remember a time when cars were identified with masculinity...'60's, muscle-cars, and James Dean. And it is easily debatable that cars, for all their vaunted claims to provide "freedom," also mean gridlock, increased global warming, more fatalities than the deaths from the Civil War, WW's 1 and 2...combined; and the effective end of trolley-car transit in American cities (a campaign waged quite consciously by Standard Oil).

It is important to understand the uses of technology: but it is equally important to examine how they negatively impact on our lives and our society.

Guns are no different.

Quote:
So on whom should we depend for protection...?
The police, of course. But we don't have to accept them as blameless public servants with a spotless record.

I'd just as well have everyone armed with swords. Now, there's a lobbying organization I could get behind...the NBA!!! (National Blades Assoc) A katana in every home~~!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 06:07 PM   #62
Mattias Bengtsson
Dojo: Halmstad Aikidoklubb
Location: Halmstad
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 37
Sweden
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

According to the Small Arms Survey 2007
out of the 875million military, civilian and police firearms in the world, 650million of them are civilian, and 270million (41%) are owned by Americans.

This means that there are 90 firearms per 100 citizens in the US...

My neighbourhood country Finland are on 3rd place with 56 firearms per 100 citizens and yet only 14% of homicides are gun-related. (America have 2/3rds)

My own country Sweden are on 8th place with 31 guns per 100 citizens, putting us on the same place as Canada and Austria. Countries with comparatively low gun related homicides, and yet a pretty high ownership of guns.

Quote:
in America there is an average gun-killing rate of 3.97 per 100,000 of the population; in Canada it is 0.59; in Switzerland it is 0.51; in Sweden it is 0.37; in England and Wales it is 0.14 (12).
from here: http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p.../article/2877/

But these weapons are long arms, they're used for hunting and sport. Not self defence of robberies. (although there are exceptions naturally)

Also i found this:
Quote:
it is a federal crime for a gun to be possessed by the following people (even in cases of recreational hunting):

# A convicted felon
# An illegal drug user or addict
# An illegal alien
# A dishonorably discharged military member
# Anyone convicted of domestic violence
# A fugitive
# Anyone under indictment
# Anyone subject to a final protection order
# Anyone adjudicated mentally defective
# Anyone engaged in a federal crime of violence or a drug crime
on a site about Gun control in West Virginia.. (since Mark brought it up)
So.. basically these are people in West Virginia Who don't have rights to own a gun legally..
I don't know about you, but I sure have no problems with that..

Last edited by Mattias Bengtsson : 09-25-2007 at 06:15 PM.

Uke Iacta Est
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 10:46 AM   #63
Taliesin
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 82
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Can soeone onthe pro-gun side please explain why the argument is always put forward that only guns are a defence to other guns???
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 11:02 AM   #64
Mattias Bengtsson
Dojo: Halmstad Aikidoklubb
Location: Halmstad
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 37
Sweden
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

One thing that struck me is that calling a gun a equalizer isnt really correct.

Pulling the trigger on another human being is harder than people think.

So arm two people and have them face off each other in a room, the advantage would fall to the one with the most violent or less empathic tendencies.. Which would most likely be the criminal...

Uke Iacta Est
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 12:38 PM   #65
James Davis
 
James Davis's Avatar
Dojo: Ft. Myers School of Aikido
Location: Ft. Myers, FL.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 716
United_States
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post

The police, of course. But we don't have to accept them as blameless public servants with a spotless record.
The case histories listed are pretty horrible, and not for the faint of heart:

http://hematite.com/dragon/policeprot.html

Legal cases have repeatedly decided that we have no right to police protection. They don't have to help us. I know a lot of great cops who do a great job, but I want to have the ability to not have to wait for them to defend my life. My safety, and the safety of my family, is my responsibility. I don't see why some stranger should have to risk his life to protect me, even if he's a cop.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 12:42 PM   #66
James Davis
 
James Davis's Avatar
Dojo: Ft. Myers School of Aikido
Location: Ft. Myers, FL.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 716
United_States
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
Can soeone onthe pro-gun side please explain why the argument is always put forward that only guns are a defence to other guns???
Kevlar's expensive.

Guns aren't the only defense available when threatened by another person with a gun, but I'd rather try and defend myself with a gun than with a letter opener.

What would you suggest, David?

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 08:15 PM   #67
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
The case histories listed are pretty horrible, and not for the faint of heart:

http://hematite.com/dragon/policeprot.html

Legal cases have repeatedly decided that we have no right to police protection. They don't have to help us. I know a lot of great cops who do a great job, but I want to have the ability to not have to wait for them to defend my life. My safety, and the safety of my family, is my responsibility. I don't see why some stranger should have to risk his life to protect me, even if he's a cop.
Cops cannot guarantee your safety.

Guns cannot guarantee safety.

The NRA, NVC, FBI, or any other acronym cannot guarantee safety.

Walls and security guards do not guarantee safety.

In short, "safety" and security is relative, and the notion of being "completely safe" can be filed under "Tooth Fairies, Santy Claus and Other Myths We Tell Ourselves, To Make Us Feel Better (or, TFSCOMWETOTMUFB, if you like acronyms.)" No one is completely safe from harm. And IMO, guns only raise the bar a little.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 09-26-2007 at 08:18 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2007, 09:04 PM   #68
Mashu
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 106
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
Can soeone onthe pro-gun side please explain why the argument is always put forward that only guns are a defence to other guns???
Because flamethrowers are illegal?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2007, 01:50 AM   #69
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
We've gone over this already. I am not comforted by the use of a firearm to protect others: too much of a possibility to accidentally injure passersby.

You feel differently. I can respect that.
As you stated earlier, Neil, you have almost no experience with firearms. If you handle a gun confidently and with respect, and practice the correct habits, accidental shootings are very unlikely. There are only four rules of gun safety:
1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target and you are ready to shoot.
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it.

All "pro-gun" people that I've been around handle their weapons with care. I've never been uncomfortable around them or felt threatened. My one bad experience was in police academy. We were on the firing line; a female cadet turned to ask the instructor a question and pointed her gun at my side of the line. The instructor laid into her so severely that she cried and then quit.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
But I feel less threatened by a man coming at me with a can opener than with a .45.
Again, a bokken works.
Would you feel more threatened by a man coming at you with a .45 or a bokken?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
It is important to understand the uses of technology: but it is equally important to examine how they negatively impact on our lives and our society.

Guns are no different.
I'm not so sure of your vilification of guns. Here's some American history. Although, the country was more rural, there was a time when it was common for little boys to bring their rifle to school and do some shooting or hunting after school was out. To my knowledge there were no reported school shootings in those days. Also, "gun control" laws in America have a racist origin. From the times of slavery to the Black Panthers, some people have just never liked the idea of black people owning firearms.

If you want to talk about negative impact on our lives and society, I think welfare, making victimless "crimes" illegal, inflation, and lack of respect for property have caused far greater damage than guns.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
The police, of course. But we don't have to accept them as blameless public servants with a spotless record.
Court cases aside, can anyone describe a time when they or someone they knew was protected by the police?

Police are simply the apprehension arm of the criminal justice system. Their presence deters crime, for sure, but do we really want or need to live in a world where every block is assigned its own cop?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Guns cannot guarantee safety.
I don't think anyone is saying that they do.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
I'd just as well have everyone armed with swords. Now, there's a lobbying organization I could get behind...the NBA!!! (National Blades Assoc)
Not sure if this was a joke. The Japanese had a society where one class of people carried swords, and could kill lower class people for no reason. People often hate guns, but fantasize about swords and samurai. Changing the weapon of choice from gun to sword to stick to fist doesn't change the reality of violence, nor does it create respect for life. I posted this video before; hardly anyone touched it, but everyone should take a look:

(Warning: graphic footage of sword/machete wounds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glv57eIHScE

Quote:
Mattias Bengtsson wrote:
One thing that struck me is that calling a gun a equalizer isnt really correct.

Pulling the trigger on another human being is harder than people think.

So arm two people and have them face off each other in a room, the advantage would fall to the one with the most violent or less empathic tendencies.. Which would most likely be the criminal...
You are giving criminals too much credit. They are looking for easy targets. Most of the time just the presence of a gun is enough to deter crime. No shots need to be fired.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2007, 02:50 AM   #70
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Square Re: Gun Crimes

Michael....do you work for a gun manufacturer? Cause I feel like you're trying to pitch me a sale...

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
All "pro-gun" people that I've been around handle their weapons with care. I've never been uncomfortable around them or felt threatened.
That's great. It's not the pro-gun people I'm worried about. It's the pro-gun people's weapons getting stolen, getting lost, misused.

Accidents and mischief happen.

Somehow, tho: my trusty weapons-bag, filled with all manner of dangerous wooden objects, don't seem to fill me with the same anxiety.

Quote:
My one bad experience was in police academy. We were on the firing line; a female cadet turned to ask the instructor a question and pointed her gun at my side of the line


Quote:
Would you feel more threatened by a man coming at you with a .45 or a bokken?
Depends upon range, and intent.

Quote:
I'm not so sure of your vilification of guns. Here's some American history. Although, the country was more rural, there was a time when it was common for little boys to bring their rifle to school and do some shooting or hunting after school was out. To my knowledge there were no reported school shootings in those days.
That's great. But, that was then: this is now. And, I wasn't simply villifying "guns." I was talking about their wider cultural significance in our society.

Guns are a symbol of misplaced, misogynous masculinity. The movies which promote the gun as this symbol are easy to rattle off...Dirty Harry; Reservoir Dogs (or, ANY Quentin Tarantino, Sam Peckinpah, etc film), Unforgiven (or just about any Western made pre-Unforgiven).

The power and symbol of the gun is amply related in American art, culture, books, TV, video and PC games (cf, Doom, Hexen, Hitman, et al). Our culture is saturated with it (cf, Happiness is a Warm Gun. )

The NRA is one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington. Now, how many OTHER Bills of Rights are so well protected as the 2nd Amendment? When you hear of a Anti-Search and Seizure Lobby, please let me know.

Now, why is this lobby so powerful? Simple: follow the money. The US deals in about 60% of the small-arms purchases in the world. Firearms are BIG business.

Quote:
Also, "gun control" laws in America have a racist origin.
The enforcement of gun control laws had a racist origin. Bit of a difference. But, you're not going to box me into a pro-gun control position, thanks.

Quote:
From the times of slavery to the Black Panthers, some people have just never liked the idea of black people owning firearms.

If you want to talk about negative impact on our lives and society, I think welfare,
Welfare? Sorry: agree to disagree. But too off topic.

Quote:
making victimless "crimes" illegal, inflation, and lack of respect for property have caused far greater damage than guns.
Not if you count all the deaths from our small arms exports. And yes, I think it counts.

Think about it: the manufacturer that made the gun you likely own, also probably made the weapons getting sold to whomever wants one, outside the US.

And I DO mean whomever.

And you know what? Even tho it's such good and big business...I only know of ONE movie/book that honestly deals with the topic.

Lord of War. Good flick. But, in brief: our society does not have a healthy relationship with guns. We fetishize firearms.

Quote:
Court cases aside, can anyone describe a time when they or someone they knew was protected by the police?
Yes, I felt that there were times the police protected. I don't feel that way any more (and I know a fair number of police), certainly after I've had to face down whatever-city's-finest, protesting.

Quote:
Police are simply the apprehension arm of the criminal justice system. Their presence deters crime, for sure, but do we really want or need to live in a world where every block is assigned its own cop?
Um...no. But, that wasn't my point.

Quote:
I don't think anyone is saying that they do.
But, those of you who speak up (James, etc) talk about it as if there is no other way to preserve one's safety, than to buy a gun.

Quote:
Not sure if this was a joke.
Yeah, it was.

Quote:
The Japanese had a society where one class of people carried swords, and could kill lower class people for no reason. People often hate guns, but fantasize about swords and samurai.
Can't help it. It's the martial artist in me.

Quote:
Changing the weapon of choice from gun to sword to stick to fist doesn't change the reality of violence, nor does it create respect for life.
Never said that it did. I think you're running a little far with a simple offhand joke.

Quote:
You are giving criminals too much credit. They are looking for easy targets. Most of the time just the presence of a gun is enough to deter crime. No shots need to be fired.
But you know something? I had the same experience with aikido. Back when I first started I noticed a sharp difference in the way people acted towards me, after about six months' training. I just stopped getting harassed.

I'd walk through some areas that were deep in the innercity, but people would leave me alone. One time I walked by a 10-year old who looked up, nodded, and said, "Yeah, I have a gun, too."

Did this made me feel safer? No, but clearly the kid thought that I was "packing." Maybe it was simply that aikido taught me how to walk wherever I wanted, without fear or giving off the "victim" vibe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2007, 11:04 AM   #71
James Davis
 
James Davis's Avatar
Dojo: Ft. Myers School of Aikido
Location: Ft. Myers, FL.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 716
United_States
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Guns are a symbol of misplaced, misogynous masculinity. The movies which promote the gun as this symbol are easy to rattle off...Dirty Harry; Reservoir Dogs (or, ANY Quentin Tarantino, Sam Peckinpah, etc film), Unforgiven (or just about any Western made pre-Unforgiven).
Guns are tools, for good or ill.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Yes, I felt that there were times the police protected. I don't feel that way any more (and I know a fair number of police), certainly after I've had to face down whatever-city's-finest, protesting.
Police officers are just human beings behind those badges. If I call the police because someone is breaking into my house, I think that they would rather arrive on the scene to find that I've shot the intruder than have to risk their lives to deal with them for $30 grand a year.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
But, those of you who speak up (James, etc) talk about it as if there is no other way to preserve one's safety, than to buy a gun.
Hmm. No. I said:
Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post

Guns aren't the only defense available when threatened by another person with a gun, but I'd rather try and defend myself with a gun than with a letter opener.
If I thought that guns were the only way to protect myself, I wouldn't have ever walked into a dojo.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2007, 11:26 AM   #72
Mattias Bengtsson
Dojo: Halmstad Aikidoklubb
Location: Halmstad
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 37
Sweden
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
(Warning: graphic footage of sword/machete wounds)
Ok, that was absolutely horrible.

But bullet wounds don't look the least better, especially when they're on children.

Uke Iacta Est
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2007, 11:29 AM   #73
Mattias Bengtsson
Dojo: Halmstad Aikidoklubb
Location: Halmstad
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 37
Sweden
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
Guns are tools, for good or ill.
I thought it was "Weapons are tools of ill omen"...........

Uke Iacta Est
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2007, 01:49 PM   #74
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
Guns are tools, for good or ill.
As a symbol and cultural icon, guns are a lot more than that...by definition.

Quote:
Hmm. No. I said:

Guns aren't the only defense available when threatened by another person with a gun, but I'd rather try and defend myself with a gun than with a letter opener.
Sorry, my mistake.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2007, 05:01 PM   #75
James Davis
 
James Davis's Avatar
Dojo: Ft. Myers School of Aikido
Location: Ft. Myers, FL.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 716
United_States
Offline
Re: Gun Crimes

Quote:
Mattias Bengtsson wrote: View Post
I thought it was "Weapons are tools of ill omen"...........
Weapons are tools of ill omen. Wielded by the ignorant. If their use is unavoidable,. The wise act with restraint.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
the whole competition thing Nick General 26 02-05-2001 08:01 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:54 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate