Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-16-2009, 04:51 PM   #1
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,276
United_States
Offline
The point of katate tori

Hi all,
I thought since the yonkyo thread was so informative, I might ask the same basic question about katate tori. What is the point of katate tori?

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 05:13 PM   #2
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 641
United_States
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
What is the point of katate tori?
Keeping the point of a short sword inside a scabbard or outside your belly would be two....
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 05:14 PM   #3
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
United_States
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Hi all,
I thought since the yonkyo thread was so informative, I might ask the same basic question about katate tori. What is the point of katate tori?
most folks are right handed. use your left hand to grab his/her/its right to inconvenient him/her/it and hold him/her/it in place, while you pummel him/her/it with your right fist, elbow, knee, ...etc. use your disadvantage to inconvenient your opponent advantage while you bring your advantage to bear on your opponent inconvenient moments. did i mention kuzushi somewhere in there? just because you are uke doesn't mean that you don't practice the same thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 05:54 PM   #4
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 865
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

Where I practice the assumption is that katate dori is the opening phase of something bigger; for example we assume a strike will follow katate dori or perhaps an attempt to throw. It's an attempt to restrain and lock down tori before they can react, for example to prevent them drawing a sword, whille gaining positional advantage/attempt to break posture.

Also it's a quick and easy way of providing a point of contact so that you can practice moving uke's weight and study body mechanics, both of which are harder to study from a strike.

Last edited by Ketsan : 03-16-2009 at 05:57 PM. Reason: missed something out
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 06:23 PM   #5
Keith Larman
Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
United_States
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

WRT training beginners, it is to give the student a strong connection to work with. Hard to learn aiki without a connection. And it is easier to build a connection if the person attacking grabs on strong first. Not as much for the new student to screw up.

WRT to more "self-defense" oriented points of view, the attacker grabbing usually has other ideas as already mentioned. It might also be to pull/push someone around. Or to just physically intimidate. But most likely it is a precursor to another attack elsewhere and they want to make sure you aren't using that other arm.

WRT to day to day... Because that's what sensei said to practice that day...

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2009, 11:22 PM   #6
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,646
United_States
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

Id say Fred Little hit it right on the head.

It's to keep people from using whatever it is they have in their hand. It's funny, because to the Koryu (old schools) this is pretty straight forward and simple, but to us Aikido folks, it's a pretty hard concept to get.

The best reason to really grab someones hand, and not wish to let go is because they are holding something you don't want them to use on you.

Not only true of Katate, but also Gyakute, Morote, Ryote, Ushiro Ryote, and Ushiro Kubishimi.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 08:19 AM   #7
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,276
United_States
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

Thanks everyone, that makes quite a bit of sense! How would you describe the basic mechanics behind it? Or what might be the key issues people often have in trying to perform katate tori? For example, my understanding is that because the palm can withdraw when you grab at something, in katate tori, it's generally best to make sure you have good palm contact and are already entering through it before the fingers start to contract. Does that fit with your understanding and are there other pointers you'd offer to a beginner? ...or a moderately advanced student for that matter?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 03-17-2009 at 08:27 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 09:30 AM   #8
Fred Little
Dojo: NJIT Budokai
Location: State Line NJ/NY
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 641
United_States
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Thanks everyone, that makes quite a bit of sense! How would you describe the basic mechanics behind it? Or what might be the key issues people often have in trying to perform katate tori? For example, my understanding is that because the palm can withdraw when you grab at something, in katate tori, it's generally best to make sure you have good palm contact and are already entering through it before the fingers start to contract. Does that fit with your understanding and are there other pointers you'd offer to a beginner? ...or a moderately advanced student for that matter?
Good connection (with appropriate hand position) before closing the fingers is always a good thing.

One point which is often overlooked (or forgotten) is that the person grabbing shouldn't be squared off directly in front of the person being grabbed; rather, the grabber should typically come from the outside of the arm being grabbed at a slight angle which prevents the opposite hand and foot from coming into play and also minimizes the odds of getting stuck, punched or poked in the belly with the hand be grabbed -- even if the person being grabbed is stronger than the person grabbing.

Hope this helps,

FL

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 09:55 AM   #9
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,646
United_States
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

It's an old adage, but holding with the pinky is key. if you have a strong grip from the pinky up, your grip will be very hard to brake.

Also, many Aikidoka hold the lower forearm instead of the wrist itself. In my experience this is a mistake. I generally try to hold right at the wrist joint.

This serves two purpose's. First it is the smallest part of the arm, this allows me to get the best grip possible as it gives my fingers maximum reach around.

Second, it stops the guy I'm grabbing from being able to easily bend his wrist toward me. This is very important if they have a knife, or a gun, as allowing them to turn their wrist toward you likely means you'll be cut, or shot.

Also, remember you can apply yonkyo when grabbing katate, this can come in handy, and surprise your opponent.

  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 10:01 AM   #10
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

If you want to develop a good grip, try wrangling mink for a while.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 11:15 AM   #11
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 394
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

The point is what are you going to do when someone grabs you?

Couple of years ago in the DC area, a 12 yr. old girl was grabbed by her wrist and dragged off by her assailant. He only grabbed her wrist just as in katate tori. This was caught on video tape. The guy killed the girl.

One of my instructors always used that scenario to set up the technique. Then low and behold, it actually happened that way.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 01:52 PM   #12
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 347
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

like keith said, its hard to 'learn aiki' without a connection. so as we start out, its a one-handed grab, so uke and nage become 'engaged.'

chiba sensei has said something along the lines that katate tori might not end up as a grab. its the representation of other attacks. if uke moves to grab katatetori with strong intent (as he/she should) it could become the representation of tsuki.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2009, 07:52 PM   #13
wideawakedreamer
 
wideawakedreamer's Avatar
Dojo: Bu Yuu Kan dojo
Location: Davao City
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 127
Philippines
Offline
Re: The point of katate tori

Interesting discussion.

Jerome, my instructors told me the same thing about katate tori possibly becoming the representing tsuki. My understanding of katate tori is that if he's close enough to take my wrist, he's close enough to hit me. So katate tori is good for learning maai as well as providing connection between uke and nage.

But I actually never thought about katate tori as an actual attack until I read this thread. Hmmm.... must experiment with this as soon as I get back to the dojo.

  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza John Driscoll Columns 30 10-15-2016 03:22 PM
Tori to Nage mrfeldmeyer Language 15 03-24-2007 09:51 PM
Testing requirements kyu levels arjandevries Testing 10 08-07-2006 08:26 PM
Article: Aiki Syntax, Part 2: Tori by Ross Robertson AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 2 06-21-2006 12:19 PM
Uke or Tori? Dario Rosati Training 11 04-23-2004 02:00 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:59 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate