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01-10-2013, 06:43 PM
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#51
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,035
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I think one of the big problems we have is assumption, and the certainty that the assumptions are correct. This, I believe has led us more astray than any other device we've used...
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The only evident problem we have is that some have done a prodigious amount of actual research AND physical training that bring the scholarly and the technical together, to offer credible theory... while others use conjecture that is entirely unreenforced by scholarship and technical know-how.
Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 01-10-2013 at 06:46 PM.
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01-10-2013, 09:41 PM
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#52
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
I'm not interested in technical know how or a discussion of it per se, I am interested in taking each definition at face value and knowing what it means.
1. Aiki as evading... isn't debated.
2. Aiki as a spiritual reference isn't debated either.....even though many don't know his references and what they meant to him, they don't debate it they discuss it and all agree its over their head. Often they take poor explanations at face value because..well they admit they don't know the reference points.
3 Aiki that are exact quotes and known trading modalities for internal power? They get thrown out as hogwash or included as part of some esoteric meandering because most people don't know. Thus we have a dilemma.
People don't know much about these other aiki expressions and training models, what they meant, where they came from or that there are *real* *live* humans walking the earth who DO know these things....
For that reason I would agree with assumptions Just not the way it is being offered.
Openly choosing to disregard definitions of aiki that Ueshiba considered vital to his daily exercises and studies and quoted repeatedly has been done before. It's a twice told tale.
Dan
Last edited by DH : 01-10-2013 at 09:52 PM.
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01-10-2013, 10:28 PM
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#53
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 6,049
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
Hi folks,
Rather than making this thread into condemnation for people who do not include certain interpretations of how Morihei Ueshiba used the term "aiki" or how some are using certain interpretations within their physical/technical practice, please turn the discussion towards discussing the interpretations themselves.
Thank you,
-- Jun
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01-10-2013, 10:33 PM
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#54
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Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,646
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
That one went to the sea voyage pile.
With respect to the term Aiki - I doubt that even in historical times, in cultural context, it had any clear meaning. Much as I like and can relate to some of those historical definitions the terms use was more broad - almost like a catch-all. Ueshiba if anything was even less precise.
For anyone to say what Ueshiba actually meant requires a lot of assumption (presumption).
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The more I read and learn the more I am forced to agree with this. As much as I would like to put "Ueshiba's idea of Aiki" in a little box, it's nearly impossible.
I think simply sticking to the word Aikido, when referencing our system is best.
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01-11-2013, 01:45 AM
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#55
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Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
Ai: match, fit, suit, join, combine, unite, coincide, agree.
Ki: air, atmosphere, spirit, mind, heart, will, intention, feelings, a mood, nature, a disposition, attention, care, a sign, an indication.
These are basic, no frills definitions. I find that it is best to start from the most obvious and mundane. These will not provide the final answer, and can likely be argued in any direction. But, whatever phenomena people, Morihei included, had in mind, I doubt seriously that the characters ai and ki were randomly selected.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Drawing a circle and explaining Aiki is opposing powers.
Or
The mysteries of aiki are revealed in dual opposing spirals.
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I'm curious. Can anyone provide the source and brief explanation behind the translation for the above quotes? I can't remember off the top of my head where Morihei used that language.
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-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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01-11-2013, 03:20 AM
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#56
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Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 129
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
Ai: match, fit, suit, join, combine, unite, coincide, agree.
Ki: air, atmosphere, spirit, mind, heart, will, intention, feelings, a mood, nature, a disposition, attention, care, a sign, an indication.
These are basic, no frills definitions. I find that it is best to start from the most obvious and mundane. These will not provide the final answer, and can likely be argued in any direction. But, whatever phenomena people, Morihei included, had in mind, I doubt seriously that the characters ai and ki were randomly selected.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Drawing a circle and explaining Aiki is opposing powers.
Or
The mysteries of aiki are revealed in dual opposing spirals.
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I'm curious. Can anyone provide the source and brief explanation behind the translation for the above quotes? I can't remember off the top of my head where Morihei used that language.
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Chris Li would probably be able to answer this, from his blogs I can see this which looks like it could be a paraphrase of:
Quote:
Chris Li wrote:
There's even a section in "Aiki Shinzui" (a collection of essays by Morihei Ueshiba) called 合気は息の妙用なり ("Aiki is the mysterious working of Iki (breath).").
[snip]
In "Takemusu Aiki" the word "Kokyu" is actually annotated in many places to be pronounced, phonetically, "iki".
So where does "iki" come from? Here's a quick hint:
合気道の呼吸法によるイキ(息)は、右に螺旋して舞い昇り、左に螺旋して舞い下り、水火のムスビ(産霊・結び)が生ずる。
The "Iki" (breath) of Aikido's kokyu-ho winds up in a spiral on the right, winds down in a spiral on the left, and gives rise to the connection between Water ("I") and Fire ("ki").
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Source: Aikido Sangenkai Blog
Worth giving Chris' blogs a read through if you've not had opportunity as yet.
Disclaimer; there are undoubtedly many other passages and writings which may be closer to the above quote but this is an example of Ueshiba using this language, I am not qualified to make the translations myself but see no reason to question Chris'. I'm sure there are others here who can translate the above for themselves and debate the detail/interpretation.
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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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01-11-2013, 08:15 AM
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#57
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:
I'm curious. Can anyone provide the source and brief explanation behind the translation for the above quotes? I can't remember off the top of my head where Morihei used that language.
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That particular quote appears here.
Best,
Chris
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01-11-2013, 10:31 AM
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#58
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
As Chris continues to translate, it becomes abundantly clear that Ueshiba was (as I have continued to state) not even using his own ideas for aiki.
THEY WERE NOT HIS DISCOVERY
Many things he says were actual quotes of known work
1. If we keep asking what Ueshiba meant by aiki and not what westerners think about aiki than I would suggest reading what our subject-Ueshiba Morihei actually said on the subject (correctly translated)
Then as Chris and others are doing
2. Find out what his sources were. - were they his discoveries?
- Did that have a pedagogy?
- What did they mean when used in context from many sources?
- what did they mean to him?
Once you establish that, you simply cannot, with any degree of credibility ignore ALL of his references which tie in as well to accepted and credible doctrine of internal training. They are simply inescapable reference points. His thoughts on evading, explicated in detail by Shirata outline the starting point as internal training in order to create and immovable body IN MOTION. Then he discusses how that tied together creates invinicible positioning. These descriptions of aiki
Aiki is the joining of two ki's as opposing forces expressed in heaven earth man
Aiki is dual opposing spirals (repetative quote left out)
Give life and breath to his thoughts on
Aiki is evading
We are discussing Ueshiba's aiki are we not?
I for one am interested in what gave him such crazy power. Since I am interested in his power and where he thought it tied into his world view, I take his quotes on aiki in their fullness and try to understand what they mean.
People keep stating we need to understand cultural reference for his spirtual descriptions. Okay
Discuss them________________________
We need to understand the cultural references for his Aiki as internal power dynamics
Discuss them________________________
Chris is.
Dan
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01-11-2013, 11:36 AM
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#59
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Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,209
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
A couple of things have come up that I think I can address...
Quote:
Who is convincing you that a cultural filter is needed all the time, and who is capable of providing it?
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The opposite, actually. Many of the interpreted translations I have read I now feel flavored the original meanings. When I read Chris' translations, I am like, "wow, that makes way more sense." However, I am not literate in Japanese, nor am I familiar with the Eastern culture. I understand these things influence language and I still need assistance within those contexts. We have so many more bi-lingual capable martial artists who can revise what we know...
Quote:
For anyone to say what Ueshiba actually meant requires a lot of assumption (presumption).
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I think it requires the presumption of elite persons capable of deciphering what was going on to undertake the challenge of figuring out what was going on. I think we need to start somewhere and if educated guesses are the beginning, then let's get going. There are guys out there whose guesses I would rather accept than most of the facts in aikido books.
I think several people have commented, but aiki is a fairly straight-forward definition in many other martial arts. For some reason, "aikido" is the art that has the biggest problem with aiki. That should be because the study is expansive, but I am not so sure that is the actual reason.
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Jon Reading
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01-11-2013, 12:05 PM
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#60
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Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
Quote:
Rich Hobbs wrote:
Chris Li would probably be able to answer this, from his blogs I can see this which looks like it could be a paraphrase of:
Source: Aikido Sangenkai Blog
Worth giving Chris' blogs a read through if you've not had opportunity as yet.
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every time i read that blog, i started to see more stuffs. either i need new reading glasses or since the legalization of certain weed in a certain state, it might affect my seeing things, from a distance, through the internet (doesn't weed affects ki from a distance?). i still blamed Chris Li for it, out of spite, and because i can and he couldn't do anything to me, since he's way over the other side of the country.
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01-12-2013, 02:13 AM
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#61
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Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
That particular quote appears here.
Best,
Chris
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Thanks.
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-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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02-08-2013, 01:10 PM
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#63
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Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,013
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
To me, aiki is not love or peace wiffle waffle. If that is what you think it to be, then you will never learn it in terms of being able to manipulate people using their own effort. To me, aiki is a method and a skill and if you develop it your waza go from being waza that you do yourself into waza that uke almost casues upon himself. You need skill, timing, harmony, coordination etc etc etc and of course, you need to develop your power, but the right kind of power, and that would be ... kokyu ryoku. After you can do that, then, you can waffle on about peace.
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02-09-2013, 11:14 AM
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#64
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Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 452
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
... you will never learn it in terms of being able to manipulate people using their own effort.
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Aiki has nothing to do with "manipulating" people. Aiki is on a completely different level.
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02-09-2013, 12:12 PM
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#65
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Dojo: Templegate Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 129
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Re: Morihei Ueshiba's Use of the Term "Aiki"
Quote:
Dan Richards wrote:
Aiki has nothing to do with "manipulating" people. Aiki is on a completely different level.
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Depends on your definition of "manipulate" but if you use:
"Handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner"
It seems to fit to me.
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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile
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