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Old 10-30-2015, 03:17 PM   #101
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
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Re: Ushiro

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
It is kind of amusing when you realize that we don't seem to know/agree on what a dynamic ushiro attack actually is supposed to represent.

Static ushiro attacks (wrists, elbows, bear hug, shoulders, choke) are perfectly reasonable - someone restrains you so someone else can clobber you.

Could a ushiro result from the attacker making a frontal attack and then when meeting resistance decide move to around behind nage? It is hard to argue that being BEHIND someone is bad for the attacker. Just like a lot of Aikido attacks, sometimes we get too stylized and so a real attack intention becomes a silly looking running attack.

Just a thought...
Right, so you've got a basic, kihon waza level technique that involves an attack, a certain response to the attack, then a certain response to the response. Just to get to practice a fundamental movement.
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:27 PM   #102
mathewjgano
 
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Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
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Re: Ushiro

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
I meant the 'lost' Kiai master...What is he thinking? He probably has very complacent students and starts to believe he can actually keep people at distance doing 'his stuff'. You do not take these guys serious, now do you?
In actuality, there are Aikido teachers (high ranked) out there that do, teach and sell the same s**t.

Present day Aikido gets watered down rapidly. Eye on the ball and try to get what O Sensei did.
Talking about form is interesting, but limited. There is more depth to Aikido than its outer form.

To find that requires hard work, sincere attacks and proper technique.
I may be mistaken, but I took Demetrio as simply pointing to a famous case which displays a wrist grab (per Katherine's comment) by a fighter who is more or less competent, something commonly described as "never happens."
More to your point, I think the problem is probably people seeing what they want to see. As it relates to Ushiro waza where aite runs around tori, as with most things, I think making assumptions is always a mistake. Explore and learn what we can while we can, is my motto; assume nothing where ever possible. I've not seen a lot of real fights, but from the few I have, I've seen some things that went against "correct," and they worked just fine.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-31-2015, 11:52 AM   #103
rugwithlegs
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Re: Ushiro

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
It is kind of amusing when you realize that we don't seem to know/agree on what a dynamic ushiro attack actually is supposed to represent....
Probably not what you meant, but there is a small pet peeve of mine hinted at. It probably does not represent one thing but hints at a dozen possibilities. I've had a few students look for "the one answer," and there won't be one.

It might be for team work, but we don't train to work in teams in any other way.
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Old 10-31-2015, 01:08 PM   #104
jurasketu
Dojo: Roswell Budokan
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Re: Ushiro

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Probably not what you meant, but there is a small pet peeve of mine hinted at. It probably does not represent one thing but hints at a dozen possibilities. I've had a few students look for "the one answer," and there won't be one.

It might be for team work, but we don't train to work in teams in any other way.
I'm a firm believer in the following statement: "Everything anyone knows is either wrong or incomplete." And the corollary is that everything we think we know is mostly completely wrong. That means I don't believe that there is necessarily a "right" way to do anything.

So, for the most part, when I don't understand something, I play along with the not-so-wrong belief that I might "get" what is going on one day. Or not. I'm comfortable never understanding. I've studied too much advanced physics and math to believe that I can actually understand everything or really anything. In other words, I'm comfortable being continually uncomfortable.

I'm also comfortable with "explorations" of technique and of human physiology and psychology. So if that is all that "ushiro" represents - then I'm good with that. Most of what we do in Aikido practice is just a way to learn about the physics and psychology of conflict.

On the other hand, I've been studying and creating software for 35+ years. I can explain *why* just about anything is done in software engineering. Show me a software technique, and I'll tell you what problem or problems the technique is trying to solve, whether it is good solution or not and what the various expert opinions are about that particular technique.

So, for me, I'm thinking: "Are 'ushiro' techniques really solving a martial problem(s) or is it just an 'exploration' or just an exercise to train other important skills?" And then I'm thinking: "Shouldn't the experts at least be able to articulate the various schools of thought on the purpose?"

Ushiro doesn't seem to have that. I find that amusing. I find them fun to do even if I suck at doing them...

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 11-01-2015, 11:58 AM   #105
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Ushiro

Quote:
Robin wrote:
So, for me, I'm thinking: "Are 'ushiro' techniques really solving a martial problem(s) or is it just an 'exploration' or just an exercise to train other important skills?"
My non-expert thinking is that it can be all of these things; so it's less "or" than "and." I think a hard part to a lot of these discussions is that the intent behind an activity can vary so widely (e.g. we're all at different places in our understanding). Then there's the added issue of different semantics/terms we use and conveying those over the internet. My general suspicion in life is that folks agree more than they often realize.
Related to the idea of solving martial problems, I think of my first impression of kokyu ho and remember how I thought it was just a strange, completely unrealistic thing. Now I find it to be quite applicable...although again, to be fair, I'm not an expert. Still, I would say that is a very martially applicable thing because it works on some very important skills related to maintaining balance in exerting power. I think it can be very hard to make clear distinctions, consider things like this, so I generally don't try very hard to do it.
I can see how the ushiro waza I'm thinking about from this thread might be similar to the kokyu ho issue I had. Since I believe everything we do ideally translates into winding/unwinding of the body parts to strengthen whole-body cohesion and issue balanced power, I think the issue of form is somewhat moot. However, I remember having "battle royales" with my friends as a kid (I know, that's hardly a highly trained scenario, but it is one which is relatively organic/natural) in which something very similar happened: my attention was on one friend while another grabbed my arm and brought it behind my back. It didn't look exactly like what I've seen of the form I think people are talking about here, but it was pretty close.
So why allow aite to get around on you? I can only think of an example I've seen where someone let another person get them in an arm bar in order to demonstrate that what appears to be a bad situation, isn't always a bad situation...or at least, that by maintaining intra- and inter-body connection, we might still have options. Perhaps this is related. Aite cuts the arm toward the rear corner, tori lets them up to a point and then creates kaeshi. I would guess it looks the way it does for the same reason a lot of Aikido is so big and flowy compared to others, which I assume is to create opportunity for the body to open up and relax...and maybe that isn't so martially representative compared to more direct routes/flows of movement, but I still see applicability and problem solving potential.
...I dunno...my non-expert two bits, for whatever it's worth.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-19-2016, 07:17 PM   #106
MrIggy
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Re: Ushiro

Quote:
Julia Campbell wrote: View Post
I've always found ushiro to be an unwieldy, unnatural attack, and I've heard a lot of other people complain about it as well. It makes me wonder, what is its purpose in the aikido curriculum? Is it related to a for-real attack? What are the lessons inherent in this set of techniques? Is there a particular historical reason for its being there?
Ushiro Waza serves the purpose of not letting your opponent get behind you so he can choke you out or simply restrain you so his buddy or buddies can come in and kick, punch or even attack you with a weapon. The wrist grab isn't essentially a wrist grab (this again depends on Dojo to Dojo, Shihan to Shihan and Sensei to Sensei teaching the techniques) he is basically trying to break your gard so he can pass it easier. His whole agenda is to get to your back and your whole agenda is to not let him. Even if he manages to get behind your back you should not remain static but moving using the footwork maeshi tenshin, or maeshi tenshin returning straight out and off course atemi (uraken or elbow) and then going for a tehcnique. The again a Dojo that hosts seminars with my Dojo does this differently (the movements and with no atemi). It all depends on the way you are taught in your Dojo.

Last edited by MrIggy : 01-19-2016 at 07:27 PM.
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