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Old 05-13-2003, 11:18 AM   #76
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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I understand your skepticism Kevin, but if it were me, I might be a little more circumspect, in any case. Read the link I posted above. If you were to run into someone of Wang's stature...what then?

Happless aikidoka: Tai cheese? what good is that?

TaiJi adept: THUMP

Happless aikidoka: OW!

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-13-2003, 12:28 PM   #77
Kevin Wilbanks
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I read the story. I like Terry Dobson. His no-BS tales have a true ring to them. A couple of things, though: My criticism was aimed at the kind of thing being floated here in the US now. Someone trained in asia, presumably starting maybe 80 years ago is a different animal. Also, we're talking about a huge, muscular guy, so the feats described don't sound that outlandish. You should see 'Big Man', the guy who lives next door to my dad and runs a barbecue cart. I can punch hard enough to injure my own wrist, even with wraps, and I'd be willing to be he could absorb my punches similarly, never having trained a day of martial arts.
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Old 05-13-2003, 12:50 PM   #78
Ron Tisdale
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I have it on fairly good authority that some of those "TaiJi Thumpers" are still around. And even make it to the US, occasionally.



As to your dad's neighbor, yeah, the toughest guys rairly if ever bother with a dojo. They don't really have to, do they?

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-13-2003, 01:25 PM   #79
Kevin Wilbanks
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I think when you're that big, learning to fight is just fine-tuning that you can just work on in actual fights... unless your assailant has serious weaponry, I suppose. I doubt you even have to get into fights if you're big enough. Just saw this WWF guy on Conan O'Brien last night: 7 feet tall, over 400 pounds, and not even remotely pear-shaped. Holy crap!
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Old 05-13-2003, 01:42 PM   #80
Ron Tisdale
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Frankly, I think its the hormones in the food we eat!



Ron (wouldn't try to touch that guy with a ten foot nuggie stick with a blade on the end) Tisdale

PS Have you ever SEEN Big Tony Alvarez? Trains in empty hand and sword...be afraid, be very afraid...

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-14-2003, 12:44 AM   #81
Grappler
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I think most BJJ guys would take it as a compliment that they don't care much fro spiritual things/
LOL true
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Old 05-14-2003, 08:29 AM   #82
opherdonchin
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We've certainly gotten off gentleness, haven't we?

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-14-2003, 08:50 AM   #83
SeiserL
 
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IMHO, the most gentle martial art and the first line of self-defense is good manners.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-14-2003, 10:15 AM   #84
gasman
 
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well put.
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Old 05-15-2003, 08:51 PM   #85
shadow
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Quote:
Ian Hurst (happysod) wrote:
Damian, not a very useful post (and very unlike your normal missives). At least give some reasons why you disagree so the debate can continue rather than degenerating into name-calling.
sorry about the name calling.

i just see too many people who disagree with what they dont know. i personally dont know a lot about tai chi yet and as such i dont talk it up or talk it down, im in no position to do either. but having done aikido for a while now i can see how deadly aikido can be if used in a certain way, which leads me to think that would be the same for tai chi. i mean why would an ancient martial art continue to be practiced and taught by many people were it not effective? (people also seem to forget that there are many secrets not passed onto the regular practitioners, i have come of the opinion that morehei ueshiba also did not pass on all his secrets as they were not neccessary in the study of an art of peace).

so the trash talking of anything unknown or not understood shows to me how foolish and immature someone really is and how little they have probably learnt by studying martial arts (and life).

perhaps these people do not realise that it is their own closed mind preventing them from ever experiencing something greater than the very limited world they see.

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 05-15-2003, 09:19 PM   #86
PeterR
 
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There are one or two people at Shodokan Honbu that also study the more combative form of Tai Chi. Basically its Chinese Aikido. The joke was that Aikido is joint controlling - tai chi is joint destroying. Not quite right since both arts cross the line but I digress. As I posted earlier, I've seen nothing to blow my socks off, but grannies in the park its not. Of course when I made that comment it was more to do with fighting public perceptions.

What I did see I've also seen in Karate, Aikido, TKD, etc. are people who although training hard at a level - convince themselves they are dangerous without taking the art outside the closed environment of the dojo. Damien - don't know if that's what you really think but you are giving off that vibe. By the way I am perfectly happy keeping my Aikido in the dojo.

Also Tai Chi's massive popularity is not due to its effectiveness but as a fitness routine that can be done by just about anybody. That's been the case for a long time and I've heard it argued that the more combative versions have much introduced from other Chinese arts. What was, was lost and found again.

Last edited by PeterR : 05-15-2003 at 09:22 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-16-2003, 12:24 AM   #87
shadow
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i do not consider myself to be deadly, nor do i care much wether i can be or not.

fighting is nothing i am interested in.

even the self defense aspect of the art, in terms of its effectiveness is not important to my training.

all i was trying to demonstrate is that by actively criticising and trying to talk down something you may not know a whole lot about is just the extreme opposite of actively talking up something and saying it is super incredibly effective.

the issue in its own is of not much concern to me either, wether tai chi is effective as a martial art or not is not important.

what is important, in my mind, is fostering a balanced spirit. neither overly criticising of anything or overly accepting of anything (i think a healthy amount of scepticism can be good). people who often try to find reasons for something not working or not possible are seen to me as the people who have closed their eyes to the wonders the universe has to offer. how can you ever be really sure of anything? look at a tree, look at a lot of trees, they are so different even the same species are. we can explain how a tree grows, what processes occur so we accept that a tree grows. but.... A TREE GROWS! dont shut your eyes, open them and look, really look at your world around you and see if you can understand or explain anything!

then perhaps it can be reconsidered what is in the realms of possibility and what isn't.

but then again perhaps i am the fool for caring.

im going to be quiet again now.

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:49 AM   #88
rpnp
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well said....

Robert Parker

"All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts."

- James Allen
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Old 05-16-2003, 06:56 AM   #89
rpnp
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Quote:
I think when you're that big, learning to fight is just fine-tuning that you can just work on in actual fights... unless your assailant has serious weaponry, I suppose. I doubt you even have to get into fights if you're big enough. Just saw this WWF guy on Conan O'Brien last night: 7 feet tall, over 400 pounds, and not even remotely pear-shaped. Holy crap!
You know most martial art styles are favored towards the smaller person.

Its sad that alot of peoples general opinion is that a big guy can necessarily fight, which most of the time is the quite opposite.

Robert Parker

"All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts."

- James Allen
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Old 05-16-2003, 07:01 AM   #90
Kevin Wilbanks
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"so the trash talking of anything unknown or not understood shows to me how foolish and immature someone really is..."

"people who often try to find reasons for something not working or not possible are seen to me as the people who have closed their eyes to the wonders the universe has to offer. how can you ever be really sure of anything? look at a tree, look at a lot of trees, they are so different even the same species are. we can explain how a tree grows, what processes occur so we accept that a tree grows. but.... A TREE GROWS! dont shut your eyes, open them and look, really look at your world around you and see if you can understand or explain anything!"

So, let me get this straight. In the name of wonder, humility, and cosmic open-mindedness, you feel comfortable making denigrating generalizations about my character, perceptiveness, philosophy, and worldview. Seems a little ironic to me. I hate to burst your bubble, but there is actually a little more to me than even someone of your awesome stature can glean from a few of my posts about tai chi. Believe it or not, I've read Krishnamurti and taken acid too, and am familiar with concepts like skepticism, relativism, although I think they may no longer have as much novelty value for me as you. If you actually go around trying to ply this kind of new-agey, smug righteousness in person, I advise you to reconsider prioritizing martial effectiveness in your training.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 05-16-2003 at 07:14 AM.
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Old 05-16-2003, 10:04 AM   #91
Michael Neal
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hehehe!
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Old 05-16-2003, 10:11 AM   #92
Michael Neal
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Damien, Aikido is really nothing without the martial application.
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Old 05-16-2003, 10:39 AM   #93
happysod
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I'm changing my vote after following this thread for a while - an aikiweb forum's obviously the most gentle martial . Seriously, why is it the threads discussing gentleness and peaceful resolutions that seem to bring out the animal in various posters?

Lynn, if you said diplomacy as opposed to good manners I'd agree with you (mainly nit-picking as I can relate diplomacy and war, but manners and war?)
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Old 05-16-2003, 11:38 PM   #94
shanman
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Quote:
Many of our falls simply sit uke down.
Try being sat down on concrete. Aikido is gentle...but not to uke.
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Old 05-17-2003, 12:51 AM   #95
shadow
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*blushes*

apologies.

i tend to forget that you cant force someone to think the way you want and that my way of thinking is probably not great anyway and i am far far from awesome or righteous.

and just because the martial application of aikido is not as important to me, it does not mean i do not practice it...... that would just be silly and my teacher would not stand for it either.

so i apologise that i tried to make my point in such an awful manner, im just a dreamer who is slowly losing faith in the idea that an ideal world (ideal from my point of view i guess, perhaps this is already ideal to all of you )s possible.

now i will really be quiet.

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 05-17-2003, 08:08 AM   #96
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Damien Bohler (shadow) wrote:
im just a dreamer who is slowly losing faith in the idea that an ideal world (ideal from my point of view i guess, perhaps this is already ideal to all of you )s possible.
You seem to want exceeding humility and the world to conform to your desires at the same time, which is a bit of a dilemma: shy megalomaniacs don't fare very well. Perhaps I can help you out: a world according to your ideals is not even remotely possible - except in art or fiction - and even if you could remake the world in your own image, the rest of us probably wouldn't like it anyway. A major theme of eastern philosophies and Aikido too, I think, is that being preoccupied with your own ideals and preconceptions instead of paying attention to what is actually going on will cause you suffering. (In Aikido this may come in the form of a broken nose.)
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Old 05-17-2003, 08:53 AM   #97
Qatana
 
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Kevin is it really necessary to continue arguing with Damien after you have been offered an apology?

I have this funny impression that 22-year-olds are *supposed* to be idealistic.

Q
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www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 05-17-2003, 09:44 AM   #98
Kevin Wilbanks
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I guess we have largely different views of what's going on. I don't see it as an argument, and the apologetic aspect is of marginal significance, as are "insults" or my emotional state. To me, exchanges on net boards are about ideas.
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Old 05-17-2003, 12:25 PM   #99
Jeff R.
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Aikido is about de-escalation, resolution, losing arrogant and self-absorbed perceptions.

Prove it wrong at your own "risk."

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-17-2003, 02:47 PM   #100
Michael Neal
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Quote:
Jeff Rychwa (Jeff R.) wrote:
Aikido is about de-escalation, resolution, losing arrogant and self-absorbed perceptions.

Prove it wrong at your own "risk."
Maybe Aikido includes those things but you can learn those skills elsewhere.
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