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Old 02-25-2007, 03:41 PM   #76
Mark Freeman
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
The BBC generally plays after the national news on our local pbs station; it's really interesting to see a view of america from the outside, and of the rest of the world from somewhere else.

I'm always green with envy whenever Blair gives a news conference - even when he's clearly prevaricating, he's such a contrast with our own DL in speaking ability that I'm ashamed all over again.
Lorien, the envy is always greener on the other side

Blair may be more eloquent in his speech patterns than your man, and he is certainly supremely adept at avoiding answering pointed questions put to him. In a recent 30 minute interview on the Today programme he did an amazing job of avoiding admiting 'any' responsibility for the state Iraq is in today

We here have been promised a full enquiry into the lead up to the invasion,( this remains to be seen) but only after the UK troops are all safely withdrawn ( or in Afghanistan where some of them are being deployed to direct from Iraq ). By this time Tony Blair will be out of office, and enjoying a very lucrative retirement from front line politics. - I understand there are bundles of cash to be made in the US by ex British PM's on the speaking circuit. John Major has done extremely well. Blair will be far more successfull, as so many in the US admire him for his supportive stance to the current administration.

It is however the one point that most Brits admit has badly diminished his otherwise quite impressive record. He has been the most successfull Labour leader in UK political history. The Iraq invasion will be seen as the defining moment of his premiership. The eventual outcome of Iraq situation will decide by how much in one direction or the other, this too remains to be seen.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-27-2007, 06:02 PM   #77
Mike Sigman
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Shifting to another topic that the MSM covers as a given... "Global Warming". The interesting thing is that it's almost completely reported as a "consensus" that the earth is warming (it is... no one really disputes that; happens after every Ice Age) and that Man, particularly Americans Whom We Love to Hate, is to blame. The coverage almost exclusively mirrors that view. Other positions are rarely, if ever and then only briefly, mentioned. Al Gore, the man who's carbon footprint is about as large as you can get (see today's news and watch who covers what), is making his name from this impending Doom.

This doom, like all the dooms since Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring" that liberals so fevently hoped for (followed by "Nuclear Winter" and many more) is another of the "We is sooo bad that we deserve to be spanked" dooms that liberals want, in a S-M sort of way..... and news media reporters publish/spew the party line. It's almost exclusively reported that Man is responsible for this doom and all scientists are in a "consensus" about this.

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm
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Old 02-28-2007, 12:36 AM   #78
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Sometimes, Mike: I really do wonder if we're living on the same planet. Last I checked, the overwhelming majority of scientists agree that human activity plays a role in global warming.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Shifting to another topic that the MSM covers as a given... "Global Warming". The interesting thing is that it's almost completely reported as a "consensus" that the earth is warming (it is... no one really disputes that; happens after every Ice Age) and that Man, particularly Americans Whom We Love to Hate, is to blame. The coverage almost exclusively mirrors that view.
Perhaps that's because there was a major report out, recently, attributing global warming as almost certainly caused by human activity.

Report links global warming to humans

Quote:
The report by a group of hundreds of scientists and representatives of 113 governments contains the most authoritative science on the issue. It was due for official release later Friday morning in Paris. (Watch climate experts discuss the planet's future )

The phrase "very likely" translates to a more than 90 percent certainty that global warming is caused by man.

What that means in layman's language is "we have this nailed," said top U.S. climate scientist Jerry Mahlman, who originated the percentage system.

It marked an escalation from the panel's last report in 2001, which said warming was "likely" caused by human activity. There had been speculation that the participants might try to up the ante to "virtually certain" man causes global warming, which translates to 99 percent chance.
And then, of course: there's the last 5 years, being the hottest years in the history of the planet...preceeded only by the previous 5 years, which held the record, previously.

Quote:
Other positions are rarely, if ever and then only briefly, mentioned. Al Gore, the man who's carbon footprint is about as large as you can get (see today's news and watch who covers what), is making his name from this impending Doom.
Like what other positions...? All I've heard is Exxon-sponsored hacks who are quite willing to sell themselves to shill for the oil bosses. Funny, how your vituperation of the damned "liberals" ignores this tiny factoid.

Oil Lobby Offers $10,000 Payments To Global Warming Deniers To Push Back On Climate Study

Quote:
The oil lobby is so desperate to push back on the new climate change report that they have been offering to pay global warming skeptics to speak out:

Scientists and economists have been offered $10,000 each by a lobby group funded by one of the world's largest oil companies to undermine a major climate change report due to be published today.

Letters sent by the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), an ExxonMobil-funded thinktank with close links to the Bush administration, offered the payments for articles that emphasise the shortcomings of a report from the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Travel expenses and additional payments were also offered.

[]

The letters were sent by Kenneth Green, a visiting scholar at AEI, who confirmed that the organisation had approached scientists, economists and policy analysts to write articles for an independent review that would highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the IPCC report.

AEI has received more than $1.6 million from ExxonMobil. The well-heeled oil lobby is a primary reason why doubt still exists in the general public about the cause of global warming.
Of course: these oil-bought hacks are the real item...while those lefty loonies are just a bunch of anti-American wingnuts...right, Mike?

Quote:
This doom, like all the dooms since Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring" that liberals so fevently hoped for
Where do you get this stuff, Mike? Hello? Rachel Carson in "Silent Spring" warned of the dangers of DDT to the environment. Sorry to burst your bubble that ppl and the gov't took her warnings seriously, and decided to outlaw DDT.

Or, perhaps you long for the days when ppl were sprayed for lice with DDT? Look, if you long for those heady, carefree days of no environmental controls or governmental oversight: I'm sure that we could arrange someone to come over to your house, spray all your food and build a nuclear power plant next door...none of that could hurt you, after all...that's just a lot of hot air (pun) spewed by Liberal doomsayers, right?

Quote:
followed by "Nuclear Winter" and many more)
Umm...Mike? Reality check: nuclear winter could only occur, with a massive nuclear attack. So, to suggest that nuclear-winter is "doomsaying," is implying that a nuclear war would otherwise be a picnic.

Quote:
is another of the "We is sooo bad that we deserve to be spanked" dooms that liberals want, in a S-M sort of way.....
How about "what comes up, must eventually come down?" We live in a closed ecosystem, Mike. Economic growth is not infinite, in a closed system. Garbage in: garbage out. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Quote:
and news media reporters publish/spew the party line. It's almost exclusively reported that Man is responsible for this doom and all scientists are in a "consensus" about this.

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm
Well, almost all. But sorry, this is simply not the case. There is plenty of material out there disputing global warming. I just think you're peeved about it because the ppl who believe global warming is likely influenced by human activity within the scientific community are in the majority, and thus have the louder voice.

Never fear, tho: the oil companies carry a BIG megaphone, and $10,000 sounds awfully sweet, to an amoral scientist, eager to sell his soul.

Don't worry, Mike...the other side will present itself. We just have to wait for the ink to dry, on Exxon's checks.
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:17 AM   #79
Mike Sigman
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Sometimes, Mike: I really do wonder if we're living on the same planet. Last I checked, the overwhelming majority of scientists agree that human activity plays a role in global warming.
OK..... but going back to 2001, even George Bush says that in his speeches. So why does the MSM continue to report that Bush even denies that there is global warming?

Secondly, and more importantly, tell us the PERCENTAGE of global warming caused by man. No one knows, right? In fact, the report you referenced is not the actual report... it is a summary of what participating countries agreed to say semantically. The actual report, which will be editted so that it agrees with the politically-driven interim report, does not come out for another 3 months. But reading the MSM, most people don't know that.
Quote:
Perhaps that's because there was a major report out, recently, attributing global warming as almost certainly caused by human activity.
The UN report is a political report. Let's wait and read the full report. Notice that some scientists have withdrawn from the panel because they disagree with the political left-wing slant of the interim report, BTW. But Truth is never anything the leftists worry about, is it, Neil? As long as you can force your beliefs on others.
Quote:
And then, of course: there's the last 5 years, being the hottest years in the history of the planet...preceeded only by the previous 5 years, which held the record, previously.
Ten-thousand bucks says you're wrong. Want to bet? The planet has been a LOT hotter than it is now.
Quote:
Like what other positions...? All I've heard is Exxon-sponsored hacks who are quite willing to sell themselves to shill for the oil bosses. Funny, how your vituperation of the damned "liberals" ignores this tiny factoid.

Oil Lobby Offers $10,000 Payments To Global Warming Deniers To Push Back On Climate Study
OK, so this would be a classic example of the lies that the Liberal MSM publishes. Look for the follow-up to that story, which turned out to be false, Neil. And ask yourself why the MSM didn't publish retractions when it turned out the story was false. It's the same reason you never admit you're wrong.

Mike
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Old 02-28-2007, 10:48 AM   #80
James Davis
 
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Sometimes, Mike: I really do wonder if we're living on the same planet. Last I checked, the overwhelming majority of scientists agree that human activity plays a role in global warming.
Sure we do, but how big of a role? One volcanic eruption releases more crud into the atmosphere than humans have in our entire history.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
And then, of course: there's the last 5 years, being the hottest years in the history of the planet...preceeded only by the previous 5 years, which held the record, previously.
LOL. It's pretty hot down here in the sunshine state, but the last time I looked out my window I didn't see magma!

LOL

This planet's been a heck of a lot warmer, and it's also been "colder than a well digger's ass in China". We didn't have a lot to do with causing either of these portions of the planet's history. More often than not, Earth didn't have polar ice caps.

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Like what other positions...? All I've heard is Exxon-sponsored hacks who are quite willing to sell themselves to shill for the oil bosses. Funny, how your vituperation of the damned "liberals" ignores this tiny factoid.
Of course: these oil-bought hacks are the real item...while those lefty loonies are just a bunch of anti-American wingnuts...right, Mike?
How about maybe the sun's getting hotter?

Exxon, you can make that check payable to James Davis.

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Where do you get this stuff, Mike? Hello? Rachel Carson in "Silent Spring" warned of the dangers of DDT to the environment. Sorry to burst your bubble that ppl and the gov't took her warnings seriously, and decided to outlaw DDT.
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Umm...Mike? Reality check: nuclear winter could only occur, with a massive nuclear attack. So, to suggest that nuclear-winter is "doomsaying," is implying that a nuclear war would otherwise be a picnic.
I think the corelation with these subjects is the argument that the environment is in danger, and that humans are the only ones responsible.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
How about "what comes up, must eventually come down?" We live in a closed ecosystem, Mike. Economic growth is not infinite, in a closed system. Garbage in: garbage out. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
How about "stars eventually go supernova and burn out."? Nothing lasts forever, whether we cease use of the combustion engine or not.

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Don't worry, Mike...the other side will present itself. We just have to wait for the ink to dry, on Exxon's checks.
Oh, the money's gonna come rolling in!!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 02-28-2007, 10:58 AM   #81
Mike Sigman
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I just think you're peeved about it because the ppl who believe global warming is likely influenced by human activity within the scientific community are in the majority, and thus have the louder voice.
No, this cuts to the heart of the thread-topic. "Global Warming caused by Bad Bad Man, particularly Americans" is a favorite theme of liberal-trained journalists. There is no "consensus" or "majority".

BTW.... have you noticed the sudden silence since the report came out that increased cosmic rays were a factor that hadn't been included in previous models and it appears to be a large one? Came out the day the interim report was released. Sudden silence.

Go look at the story the MSM didn't mention about the 60 Canadian scientists also writing a letter to the government saying it's a bunch of hooey.

The interesting point is that the "Man did it" idea has always been a "maybe", but the MSM and liberal scientists have played it as a certitude. Now the question is.... shouldn't this deliberate malfeasance be punished if it turns out they're wrong and presenting distorted science (like the last IPCC report did)?

Mike
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Old 03-06-2007, 02:28 PM   #82
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Busy, busy, busy. Sorry not to have responded sooner: but I've been spearheading a fubdraising effort for Aikido dojo's in the ME. PM me for details.

Now then...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OK..... but going back to 2001, even George Bush says that in his speeches. So why does the MSM continue to report that Bush even denies that there is global warming?
Source?

Quote:
Secondly, and more importantly, tell us the PERCENTAGE of global warming caused by man. No one knows, right? In fact, the report you referenced is not the actual report... it is a summary of what participating countries agreed to say semantically. The actual report, which will be editted so that it agrees with the politically-driven interim report, does not come out for another 3 months. But reading the MSM, most people don't know that. The UN report is a political report. Let's wait and read the full report. Notice that some scientists have withdrawn from the panel because they disagree with the political left-wing slant of the interim report, BTW.
Again...source? Have you any documentation of scientists signing off en-masse from the report, because of its "leftwing slant? No, I'm betting you don't.

Now, up to this point, your post has been unusual in its respect for the reader, and for whom you are addressing. Of course, Mike cannot keep up a good thing, for long...

Quote:
But Truth is never anything the leftists worry about, is it, Neil? As long as you can force your beliefs on others.
And off the rails we go... You know, I think it a real scream, that you blithely go on and on about the "leftwing bias" of the MSM (without a single shred of documentation to prove your point); yet when presented with a less quantifiable and measurable phenomena such as global warming...you're "positive" that man has little involvement, in it.

Funnier still, is your contention that I am trying to "force my beliefs" on others, or that I knowingly lie.

Quote:
Ten-thousand bucks says you're wrong. Want to bet? The planet has been a LOT hotter than it is now.
If I had $10k: I'd lay in on the table, immediately. my dad always said, "Never bet, unless it's a sure thing."

But, you know already, no doubt, that the last ten years have been the hottest on record, and that the planet has DEFINITELY been hotter, in the past...except that the planet was lifeless, then: just a ball of molten rock, moving around the sun.

Quote:
OK, so this would be a classic example of the lies that the Liberal MSM publishes.
OK, so this would be a classic example of empty facts, sans a RW basis, that Mike likes to post here, and elsewhere.

Quote:
Look for the follow-up to that story, which turned out to be false, Neil.
How about you look for the follow-up story and post it here: instead of having me do your homework, for you?

Quote:
It's the same reason you never admit you're wrong.

Mike
Wrong pronoun, Mike. I'm the one who admits my mistakes. To date, tho: I am hard-pressed to remember a post when you admitted an error.
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Old 03-06-2007, 02:44 PM   #83
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
Sure we do, but how big of a role? One volcanic eruption releases more crud into the atmosphere than humans have in our entire history.
Two things:

1) Even if man doesn't have much influence in global warming: what's the harm in discussing ways to limit manmade greenhouse gases? Automobile emissions cause a lot of other problems besides global warming...smog, respiratory problems, decay of buildings, and stone structures.

Reduction of carbon dioxide could only be a good thing, IMO.

2) Funny, how all of Mike's bluster about the coverup of the MSM, et al, ad nauseum, et undocumented, et untrue...that he ignores a much greater, much more easily documented coverup and censorship, of scientific data (brace yourselves...Mike Sigman "Rage Against Anti-American'ism" coming up).

And that's the dealings of the Bush Administration. They've hardly been upfront with their approach to the problem, now have they?

Has the White House interfered on global warming reports?

Quote:
More than 120 scientists across seven federal agencies say they have been pressured to remove references to "climate change" and "global warming" from a range of documents, including press releases and communications with Congress. Roughly the same number say appointees altered the meaning of scientific findings on climate contained in communications related to their research.

These findings, part of a new report compiled by two watchdog groups, shed new light on complaints by a scattering of scientists over the past year who have publicly complained that Bush administration appointees have tried to mute or muzzle what researchers have to say about global warming.

"We are beyond the anecdotal," says Francesca Grifo, director of the scientific integrity program at the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), one of the two groups, referring to press reports of a dozen instances of interference that have emerged over the past 12 months. "We now have evidence to support the view that this problem goes deeper than just these few high-profile cases."

Global-warming science must be accurately represented to enable lawmakers to craft adequate policies to control the problem and adapt to climate change, Dr. Grifo says. Scientists at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and other agencies working on climate-related issues are doing excellent work. "But it's under threat, and they are struggling to get their results out" to the general public, she says.
I believe that the global warming debate deserves a fair hearing. But, the Bush Administration and the oil companies have taken extroadinary measures to prevent this issue from getting a fair hearing. Instead, we have double-talk, political wrangling, and science-for-sale.

But Mike likes to pretend that none of that matters.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The interesting point is that the "Man did it" idea has always been a "maybe", but the MSM and liberal scientists have played it as a certitude. Now the question is.... shouldn't this deliberate malfeasance be punished if it turns out they're wrong and presenting distorted science (like the last IPCC report did)?

Mike
"Liberal scientists," Mike?? That implies that there is a "liberal science," and that scientists present facts, based first upon their political beliefs.

In all my years of dealing with scientists (and I've met more than a few): I have yet to find a scientist that manufactures data to suit his politics. I'm sure that it's done: but you're hard put to prove that there's some pattern of it, within the scientific community.

What you CAN easily prove (if you had a shred of objectivity) is that science IS economically biased. A scientist working for an oil corporation WILL present slanted viewpoints, to suit his bank account.

But to suit his political beliefs? Politics do not pay the bills, Mike.
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Old 03-06-2007, 04:16 PM   #84
James Davis
 
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post

Even if man doesn't have much influence in global warming: what's the harm in discussing ways to limit manmade greenhouse gases? Automobile emissions cause a lot of other problems besides global warming...smog, respiratory problems, decay of buildings, and stone structures.
The only harm I see in discussing the global warming phenomenon is demonizing soccer moms for driving a few kids to their practices, while giving a pass to people flying around in private jets. We've had cars for a little while, and the emissions standards only get better. How much sense does it make to burn so much jet fuel to cart a few people around?
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Reduction of carbon dioxide could only be a good thing, IMO.
Agreed. Unless plants start suffocating.
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
I believe that the global warming debate deserves a fair hearing. But, the Bush Administration and the oil companies have taken extroadinary measures to prevent this issue from getting a fair hearing. Instead, we have double-talk, political wrangling, and science-for-sale.
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think that technology exists that could wean us off of oil.

I know, I'm karayzy.

If there exists a means of using water as fuel for transportation, an oil company probably holds the patent.
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Politics do not pay the bills.
Maybe not, but oil sure as hell does. If we cease the use of oil, will that create peace in the middle east? I don't see it happenin'.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 03-06-2007, 06:13 PM   #85
Mike Sigman
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
"Liberal scientists," Mike?? That implies that there is a "liberal science," and that scientists present facts, based first upon their political beliefs.
Bullshit. No one said anything about "presenting facts" except you. If the "facts" were all that mattered, in your perspective, all "scientists" (the IPCC has not many scientists, BTW) would have the same view. They don't. They *interpret* according to their beliefs and biases, Neil. Bring the conversation up out of the double-digit IQ range, please.
Quote:
In all my years of dealing with scientists (and I've met more than a few): I have yet to find a scientist that manufactures data to suit his politics.
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!!!!!! STRAWMAN ALERT!!!!!

Mike
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Old 03-06-2007, 06:21 PM   #86
Mike Sigman
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Source?
Look it up. It's been reported since at least 2001. Bush and nobody else has disputed that there has been a "warming"... the dispute is whether man is causing that warming. The next step is, "if Man is causing the warming, what percentage is he causing?". Even Bush has mentioned exactly those constraints in the argument (as did Clinton and members of the US Congress). The dispute is purely about how much Man is contributing to the warming and how much is the warming. You're so used to skewing facts that you just let your liberal watchwords make a moron out of you. Get with the program.
Quote:
But, you know already, no doubt, that the last ten years have been the hottest on record, and that the planet has DEFINITELY been hotter, in the past...except that the planet was lifeless, then: just a ball of molten rock, moving around the sun.
I don't know just how ill-informed you are, Neil, but maybe you should realize that Vikings had farms in Greenland where now there is only permafrost. That's how warm the earth was. That's the time period that the "hockey-stick" people tried to leave out of their alarmist "global warming" stuff.

The earth is warming. Then again, that's what it's done after every Ice Age. In some inter-glacial periods it has been 5-6 degrees Celsius hotter than we are now. I personally hate pollution, but really it's a matter of the growing human population... all these blame-placing diatribes by emoti-morons does nothing to stop the population growth. Make a car get 100 mpg but don't stop the population growth and you still lose, Neil. Get with the program and quit being so stupidly and trendily political.

Mike
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Old 03-06-2007, 11:57 PM   #87
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
The only harm I see in discussing the global warming phenomenon is demonizing soccer moms for driving a few kids to their practices, while giving a pass to people flying around in private jets. We've had cars for a little while, and the emissions standards only get better. How much sense does it make to burn so much jet fuel to cart a few people around?
Not much, I guess. And, sure...it's unfair to place all blame on the SUV drivers, alone. But the point, I think, is that there IS a noticeable change in the climate, and that a part of it is due to man's interference.

AND, the debate over HOW to proceed, is tainted by corporate (i.e., economic) meddling, with partisan muzzling of Federal scientists, as a side.

Quote:
Agreed. Unless plants start suffocating.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think that technology exists that could wean us off of oil.

I know, I'm karayzy.

If there exists a means of using water as fuel for transportation, an oil company probably holds the patent.
Can't argue with you, there.

Quote:
Maybe not, but oil sure as hell does. If we cease the use of oil, will that create peace in the middle east? I don't see it happenin'.
I do. If oil were taken out of the picture...violence would not end in the ME, sure. At least, not completely.

But, I believe that it WOULD die down, a lot. Why fight so hard over control of Iraq/Iran/Syria/Lebanon, if we had an alternative to oil?
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Old 03-07-2007, 12:02 AM   #88
Neil Mick
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Look it up.
No, Mike: YOU look it up. I really am not interested in a single claim you make, without some sort of documentation. In the past, you've made all sorts of fallacious and poorly-sourced claims, that I need serious backup to believe a thing you post.

And I'm positive that I'm not alone.

Quote:
You're so used to skewing facts

you let your liberal watchwords make a moron out of you.

I don't know just how ill-informed you are,

Get with the program and quit being so stupidly and trendily political.

Mike
Here's where I stop reading, Mike. Say whatever you like, but my brain shuts down, when the insults fly.

Next!
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:03 AM   #89
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

my contribution compares two Lebanese newspaper's coverage of a Lebanese child being "kidnapped" by the IDF.

Ya Libnan, a pro-government newspaper, claimed that the boy was 15 and was kidnapped on the border by the IDF. they also stated that the possible motive would be to lure Hezbollah into another border raid and justify another attack on Lebanon. i also read that the IDF later released him that day "unter intense pressure from Ban Ki Moon"

The Daily Star, another Lebanese newspaper, but more down the middle: the "child" could have been 15 or 26 years old, but no one could verify his age. they also stated that he was crossing the blue line repeatedly in his moped, which could have easily been seen as a threat. they later found out that he was collecting scrap metal. they also mentioned that the IDF returned him the same day, but did not mention any "intense international pressure"
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:05 AM   #90
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
If oil were taken out of the picture...violence would not end in the ME, sure. At least, not completely.

But, I believe that it WOULD die down, a lot. Why fight so hard over control of Iraq/Iran/Syria/Lebanon, if we had an alternative to oil?
True, with an alternative to oil, violence in the ME would die down for us, but somebody's still gotta live there. I think that there would be something else to fight about. Some people are taught from childhood to hate another group of people for no earthly reason. If we take away the big money maker in the ME, somebody's gotta be blamed for the ensuing poverty...

Centuries old feuds would most likely continue, and possibly get worse.

Being the world's only superpower, for the moment, we would probably still need a foothold in the ME to help our allies regardless of whether oil was at stake or not.

Until we perfect and Ecsatsy Bomb, hatred will probably be a problem for some time to come.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:44 AM   #91
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
True, with an alternative to oil, violence in the ME would die down for us, but somebody's still gotta live there. I think that there would be something else to fight about. Some people are taught from childhood to hate another group of people for no earthly reason. If we take away the big money maker in the ME, somebody's gotta be blamed for the ensuing poverty...

Centuries old feuds would most likely continue, and possibly get worse.
There's plenty of violence to go around, all over the world. The ME doesn't have a monopoly on violence: we have plenty to go around, right here. Also, we manufacture most of the world's small and large arms, and sell them around the world.

If US policy weren't so hardwired into propping up Israel (even, to the US's own detriment) and "securing" the ME, much of the weapons-trail would dry up. Sure, not all: but a lot. There would certainly still be violence, but a lot of the fuel driving the anger, as well as the weapons, would just not be there.

There's a very good reason, why the US is considered to have a negative impact upon the world:

Quote:
In January, the BBC World Service revealed polling results that suggested most people think the US has a mainly negative influence in the world - and that the numbers had increased significantly in the last couple of years.

This latest GlobeScan survey, mostly of the same people, confirms those findings.

But it also suggests that two countries are viewed even more negatively - first Israel, and then Iran.

North Korea is just behind the US.
I'm sure that our latest dalliance with Israel in Lebanon last July, didn't help our image, much.

Quote:
Being the world's only superpower, for the moment, we would probably still need a foothold in the ME to help our allies regardless of whether oil was at stake or not.
Now, why would we need that?? Why establish "footholds," unless we're running an empire?

Quote:
Until we perfect and Ecsatsy Bomb, hatred will probably be a problem for some time to come.
Until we stop making bombs, hatred will always find an outlet, with US weapons.

This reminds me of a recent interview with Robert Fisk:

Quote:
AMY GOODMAN: In The Great War for Civilisation, you talk about the weapons manufacturers. What about the cluster bomb manufacturers?

ROBERT FISK: Well, you know, last night when I was speaking at Town Hall in New York, and I don't like to cheerlead these things, because I'm a journalist, but I ask in my book and I ask people in Lebanon, as a newspaper reporter, why don't the victims of these weapons, not just cluster bombs, but the Lockheed Martin, Boeing, AGM-114C air-to-ground missile -- it hits an ambulance, it kills people, it did in 1996 -- why don't the victims or survivors sue the arms companies? I actually took -- and I recall the story here -- I actually took parts of, in fact, literally the whole US missile in bits that hit an ambulance, was fired on an ambulance by an Israeli helicopter, Apache, American-made, in '96, killed three children, two women. And with the UN, I got all the bits of the missile, including bits from the corpses. And we found the computer plate, and it was made in Duluth, Georgia. We found the date on it.

I went to Duluth. I managed to get the missile parts out of Beirut to Paris with the help of airport security. In Paris, we got Amnesty International to send it to Washington as a DHL package. I didn't want to turn up at JFK, you know, reporter found with explosive traces. Imagine Tom Friedman's comment on that. And I got these parts of the missile down to Duluth in Georgia to confront the Boeing executives there, including the developer of the missile. They thought I was coming to write a piece about this wonderful missile that could be fired five miles away and go through a baseball loop, you know. And there was a sort of explosion in the boardroom as I laid out the pieces of the missile along with the photographs of the dead and wounded civilians hit by their missile, which was made there, the building next door to where we were talking.

AMY GOODMAN: And where did it kill people, that you had the example of?

ROBERT FISK: Southern Lebanon. Southern Lebanon. It was on a road -- I was in front of the vehicle when it was hit. I was driving on the same road. That's why I knew exactly -- I saw the helicopter.

And the amazing thing was that when I got back to Beirut having run this story on the front page of the paper -- it's called "Return to Sender" -- they didn't want the pieces of the missile; actually, they kept them, but they didn't put them in the Boeing museum -- I was rung up by a NATO arms expert in Paris. He was a Frenchman. And he said, "That missile was not sold to Israel, it was sold to the US Marine Corps." And I said, how -- "come to Paris." We met at the Lutetia Hotel -- great secrecy -- and he pulled out all the secret lists with NATO codes showing -- if you read the computer codes on the missile side, which I can do, you can tell who it was sold to. And he showed me the "O1," US forces, and then "M" for Marines.

So I went back to Washington immediately, called up the Commandant of the Marine Corps, got taken by guys to a Marine base outside Washington, where men in civilian clothes, officers, sat around and went through it, said, "Well, look, we can tell you the story. These missiles were a batch of 360 sent with US Marines to Saudi Arabia in 1990, and we used half of them against the Iraqi army in the liberation of Kuwait in '91. Those half that remained, we were instructed to drop off at the Haifa munitions pier in Israel as part of a quid pro quo weapons for the Israelis in return for their non-participation in the 1990 war against Iraq." So this missile started off, was sold to the Marines, taken to Saudi Arabia for use against the Iraqis, dumped on the Israelis and fired into an ambulance in southern Lebanon, and then taken by me back to its base in --

Now, when I did that, I said, "Hang on, why don't these people sue Boeing? Is there no responsibility on behalf of the arms makers?" They say, "Oh, we've given it to the Marines. We're selling it to Israel." Don't they have a responsibility to follow through? We, in our jobs, have responsibilities. You know, if you misreport something, at some point you're going to go on the screen and say, "I got it wrong." And so am I, if I make mistakes. But these guys are completely -- they're completely protected.
We produce a profligate excess of arms. Arms manufacturers make money: the arms get passed around to be used in the ME, or saved and used for some later conflict. Sure, if WE didn't manufacture that bomb, some other bomb might have hit that ambulance.

Maybe. Or maybe, if Israel realized that the weaopns-gusher was drying up, they'd be a little more charitable about firing indiscriminately, at fleeing ambulances.
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:46 AM   #92
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Luc Saroufim wrote: View Post
my contribution compares two Lebanese newspaper's coverage of a Lebanese child being "kidnapped" by the IDF.

Ya Libnan, a pro-government newspaper, claimed that the boy was 15 and was kidnapped on the border by the IDF. they also stated that the possible motive would be to lure Hezbollah into another border raid and justify another attack on Lebanon. i also read that the IDF later released him that day "unter intense pressure from Ban Ki Moon"
Interesting. Did Ban ki Moon actually pressure the IDF, Luc?
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:57 AM   #93
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
Interesting. Did Ban ki Moon actually pressure the IDF, Luc?
i don't know; i know he "condemned" Israel but who knows what happened on the ground level.

A 3rd person viewpoint would clear up that story anyway. Israel is watching out for HA's rearmament in the south. they see a guy that keeps crossing the border over and over again, so they detain him for questioning. they find out that he's an insignificant pawn and release him a few hours later.
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Old 03-07-2007, 02:07 PM   #94
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/20...llah_has_n.php

proof that Lebanese and Israeli goals can indeed be one and the same.
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Old 03-07-2007, 04:56 PM   #95
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

More on the Joe Wilson lies, etc., in the Washington Post, a fairly liberal paper, but in this cases clinically laying out Wilson for what he is:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030602020.html
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Old 03-09-2007, 12:58 PM   #96
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
More on the Joe Wilson lies, etc., in the Washington Post, a fairly liberal paper, but in this cases clinically laying out Wilson for what he is:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030602020.html
That's one view...and only one. The same, tired old hacksaw that ignores certain facts, and spins others. This article tells a more complete story...

WPost's Editorial Fantasyland

Quote:
The real reality of the case is that in 2003, a hubristic administration sought to damage a critic, Wilson, who had offended Vice President Dick Cheney by accusing the White House of having "twisted" Iraq War intelligence. The anti-Wilson operation ended up exposing Wilson’s CIA wife. Then, recognizing the potential criminality – not to mention the political dangers – the White House launched a cover-up.

But that is not what the Post’s editorial page wants you to understand. It pins much of the blame for the scandal on Joe Wilson, whom the Post says “will be remembered as a blowhard.” The Post also distorts Wilson’s statements in a way that parrots long-discredited White House talking points.

Editorial Lies

Astonishingly, everything in this Post attack on Wilson is either a gross distortion or a lie.

Contrary to the Post’s account, Wilson did debunk suspicions that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger. He was dispatched by the CIA because of questions asked by Cheney. (Wilson never said Cheney personally sent him.) His information did reach the highest levels of the administration, explaining why the CIA kept deleting references to the Niger claims from speeches.

The full Senate Intelligence Committee did not conclude that “all [Wilson’s] claims were false.” That assertion was pulled from “additional views” submitted by three right-wing Republicans – Sens. Pat Roberts, Orrin Hatch and Christopher Bond – who carried the White House’s water in claiming that Wilson’s statements “had no basis in fact.”

As for the CIA selection of Wilson, the Post editorial-page editors know that Wilson was chosen by senior CIA officials in the office of counter-proliferation – not by Valerie Plame – and that Wilson was well qualified for the assignment since he had served in embassies in Iraq and Niger. He also took on this task pro bono, with the CIA only paying for his expenses.

The Post knows, too, that Valerie Plame indeed was a covert CIA officer, despite the endless lying on this topic by right-wing operatives. Plus, Wilson was right again when he alleged that the White House was punishing him for his Iraq War criticism.

Indeed, the Washington Post’s own reporters have described this reality in the news pages. For instance, on Sept. 28, 2003, a Post news article reported that a White House official disclosed that the administration had informed at least six reporters about Plame and did so “purely and simply out of revenge” against Wilson.

Special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald made the same point in a court filing in the Libby case, stating that the investigation had uncovered a “concerted” effort by the White House to “discredit, punish or seek revenge against” Wilson because of his criticism of the administration. Hiatt can look it up. It was on the Post's front page. [Washington Post, April 9, 2006]

As for the lack of evidence at trial about Plame’s covert status, the Post editorial leaves out the context: Libby’s defense attorneys argued against admission of that evidence on the grounds that it would prejudice jurors who might be enflamed by the idea of exposing a covert CIA officer and her spy network. In addition, Plame’s undercover work was not considered essential to a case narrowly constructed about Libby’s lying.

So, what can be said about a newspaper’s editorial board that willfully lies to its readers and slanders an American citizen, Joe Wilson, who took on a difficult assignment for his government at no pay and who later tried to blow the whistle on a White House misleading the public on an issue as important as war?

In a normal world, a newspaper would praise Wilson for his dedication and patriotism. But the Post editorial board can’t seem to get past its own gullibility in buying into the administration’s bogus WMD claims in 2002-03.

Rather than apologize for enabling Bush and Cheney to lead the nation into a disastrous war, Hiatt and Graham apparently have judged that they have the power to continue smearing Joe Wilson and other American citizens who had the foresight and courage to get the facts right.
So much for the W Post being a "fairly liberal paper..."

Last edited by Neil Mick : 03-09-2007 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 03-09-2007, 01:06 PM   #97
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

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Neil Mick wrote: View Post
That's one view...and only one. The same, tired old hacksaw that ignores certain facts, and spins others. This article tells a more complete story...

WPost's Editorial Fantasyland

So much for the W Post being a "fairly liberal paper..."
Just out of curiosity, Neil, are you the slightest bit embarrassed by having to go to a blatant whack-job Far Left blogsite to find something ridiculous like that? No? I thought not.

Mike
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Old 03-09-2007, 03:40 PM   #98
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Freaky! Mike shows us the secret "martial arts" debating kata

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Just out of curiosity, Neil, are you the slightest bit embarrassed by having to go to a blatant whack-job Far Left blogsite to find something ridiculous like that? No? I thought not.

Mike
The final defence of the disarmed strawman, when he runs out of half-truths to spew...ridicule (note how Mike employs the ancient "martial-art" technique of castigating the messenger, while utterly ignoring the content of the message. Typical).

Last edited by Neil Mick : 03-09-2007 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 03-11-2007, 02:55 PM   #99
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Mar. 10, 2007
Copyright Las Vegas Review-Journal

EDITORIAL: Meltdown over Fox

Network co-sponsors state Democratic debate -- oh my!

Hard-core liberals can't stand the Fox News Channel. Passing a television that's tuned to the conservative favorite forces many of them to close their eyes, cover their ears and scream, "La la la la la la la la la!" Then they dash to their computers and fire off 2,500 e-mails condemning the outlet, none of which are ever read.

But liberals' aversion to Fox News has finally gone over the top. The Nevada Democratic Party had agreed to let the right-tilting network co-sponsor, of all things, an August debate in Reno between Democratic presidential candidates. Party officials were serious about drawing national attention to the state's January presidential caucus, the country's second in the 2008 nominating process. What better way for the party to reach conservative and "values" voters who might consider changing allegiances?

But the socialist, Web-addicted wing of the Democratic Party was apoplectic. The prospect of having to watch Fox News to see their own candidates would have been torture in itself. So they set the blogosphere aflame with efforts to kill the broadcast arrangement, or at least have all the candidates pull out of the event. Before Friday, the opportunistic John Edwards was the only candidate to jump on that bandwagon.

You'd think the deal called for having Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter mock the candidates between comments. No, even unfiltered, unedited, live debate between loyal Democrats couldn't be entrusted to Fox News.

The approach of outfits such as MoveOn.org is so juvenile it's laughable. Imagine if every political organization created litmus tests for news organizations before agreeing to appear on their programming. Republicans would have boycotted PBS, CBS, NBC, ABC, National Public Radio and The Associated Press decades ago.

This hyperventilation results from the fact that far-left Democrats have no comparable media outlet, nor any widespread national appeal, for their radical views in favor of heavy-handed regulation, wealth redistribution, diplomatic capitulation and economic protectionism. So they attack their rivals' messenger with a reckless barrage of rhetoric that cuts down their own allies with friendly fire.

By Friday, the Nevada Democratic Party caved in to the lunatic fringe and beganseeking a more "appropriate" television partner.

Comedy Central, perhaps?
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Old 03-12-2007, 10:41 AM   #100
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Re: Media Coverage Local Vs Int'l &Ignorance

Interesting Post fom Mike

leaving aside the fact that he is ignoring Neil's points and going onto another rant.

I particularly like the line

"far-left Democrats have no comparable media outlet"

coming in a post from someone who so frequently comes out with complaints about a 'liberal (left of Gengis Khan) media bias".
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