Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-24-2007, 12:30 PM   #26
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 450
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Well Chuck, I do "soft" ukemi every night while Ikeda sensei grinds me to dust, smashes me into the ground, and hits me like a train. I am convinced it is the only reason I survive. For the first four months of this year, sensei did classes geared toward fostering these types of ukemi three nights a week, and was explicit that their judicious application was appropriate.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 12:40 PM   #27
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

The other posts have merrit in what they suggest...as I said, it depends on the level of uke.

When in the kind of situation you describe, I really don't chose the ukemi...my hardwiring through training chooses the ukemi for me. If I hard wire the style demonstrated in the clips, my assumption is that it will take over the same as the yoshinkan movements take over now.

whether it will work or not is another thing entirely...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 01:02 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

I also remember a rather frustrating day at keiko, where my uke wanted to insist on taking a certain fall from a version of iriminage. My throw wasn't allowing for it, but when I felt him trying to turn I stopped, tried to gently orient him to take the fall, and got yelled at for my trouble.

In the end, I just didn't throw him at all, as I didn't feel like changing my throw (knowing he could take the required fall), and I wasn't interested in forcing it.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 01:15 PM   #29
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Well Chuck, I do "soft" ukemi every night while Ikeda sensei grinds me to dust, smashes me into the ground, and hits me like a train. I am convinced it is the only reason I survive.
I congratulate you Benjamin. If you are doing what I saw in the video at the beginning and survive the sort of waza you describe, you would be the first person I've ever seen that can do it. I'm always open to learning. Do you have video footage of this sort of ukemi? I'm not challenging but rather curious to see something I haven't seen before.

Best regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 02:28 PM   #30
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 450
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Well to be fair to you, I will say that the ukemi I am referring to, and the ukemi that Ikeda sensei was explicit about earlier this year, are not the same as the ukemi in the video on this thread. I have experimented with the falling leaf ukemi and it does not entice me much. Nevertheless there are many ways to do soft ukemi, and many of them are at least as practical as the ukemi taught in a standard aikido or judo dojo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 02:32 PM   #31
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 450
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

If you want to see soft ukemi done in response to powerful technique I suggest you find videos of Jun Akiyama training with any shihan. A good example would be Ikeda sensei's demonstrations at the friendship seminars, or the videos from any Boulder summer camp in the last few years.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 03:28 PM   #32
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Well to be fair to you, I will say that the ukemi I am referring to, and the ukemi that Ikeda sensei was explicit about earlier this year, are not the same as the ukemi in the video on this thread. I have experimented with the falling leaf ukemi and it does not entice me much. Nevertheless there are many ways to do soft ukemi, and many of them are at least as practical as the ukemi taught in a standard aikido or judo dojo.
Around here, "soft ukemi" refers to the stuff that's coming out of some of Endo Sensei's students in Scandanavia. Is that actually what you're referring to, or are you just talking about rolls and whatnot. "Soft ukemi" as it's taught around here is kind of an alternative to breakfalls or hardfalls where there is never a percussive impact. Are we mixing terms?

Edit: Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kItc4PJtCa4 is a decent video that shows what I percieve to be the problem with this stuff. Note how in the partner 'throws' there is an extended period of time where uke's head is pointed straight down with nothing to protect it. In a typical breakfall, this also happens, but it is very short. If nage were to drop their weight in the middle of this throw, uke would be forced to land on their head witha lot of force going into their spine. I also think that since uke reaches back withe 'slapping' hand behind their back, they are in a lot of danger for a shoulder injury if nage accelerated the speed of their rotation. They would come down on the shoulder while it was still behind the back with most of the body's weight going the other direction.

Last edited by ChrisMoses : 08-24-2007 at 03:35 PM.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 03:41 PM   #33
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 568
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Hi Benjamin,

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
If you want to see soft ukemi done in response to powerful technique I suggest you find videos of Jun Akiyama training with any shihan. A good example would be Ikeda sensei's demonstrations at the friendship seminars, or the videos from any Boulder summer camp in the last few years.


Ask Jun his opinion of practicing soft ukemi when training with Chuck (a shihan, himself), which he's done. You might (or might not) be surprised.

FWIW, I remember when Jun brought this up many years ago on Aikido-L. I'd halfway taught myself some of this style simply because I wouldn't get off the mat when injured and found some of the basics are simply a natural outgrowth of trying to protect existing injuries. It grew in popularity in my dojo due to a senior who returned from Japan with it and not long after Donovan Waite's videos came out to popularize this even more and it became a regular practice among the more athletic students.

Suffice it to say, I learned and practiced this for quite a while until I determined that my feeling about it was that it's really great falling practice in terms of softening contact with the mat, and getting comfortable with falling down while being relaxed, but that it's not very good ukemi practice for how I prefer to train because it requires uke to abandon attempts to recover posture to continue the attack much sooner than I now consider optimal and it also requires cooperation from tori to allow it.

It is not at all difficult to simply remove the available space to prevent this sort of ukemi without being mean, hurtful, or slamming one's partner down, and in fact, I find it a rather fun learning exercise for myself when I train with someone who wants to try and do this.

That said, from a certain point of view, it is certainly very cool and impressive looking. However, even amongst those who practice this a lot, I see a most of this fancy stuff go away the hotter and heavier that things get (meaning uke is not muscling, but actually looking for opportunities to perform kaeshiwaza). That means something to me.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 03:55 PM   #34
cguzik
Location: Tulsa, OK
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 166
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

One of the most important lessons I ever learned about ukemi was from a teacher whom I hold in high regard who said that one should not be trying to make decisions right in the middle of a fall.

The more active you try to become in the midst of the fall, the more decisions you may have to make, that you may not have space-time for.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 05:27 PM   #35
tarik
 
tarik's Avatar
Dojo: Iwae Dojo
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 568
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
In all aikido ( ukemi and nage waza) we eventually seek to lose form and join with the void. I have seen people who are so ready to jump into the void and live in the creative auspices of take-musu instead choose to 'advance their level of skill". Usually through another form. Just as in good nage waza, we need to master to our level and then free ourslves on that level. The true form of the universe awaits our listening and intuitive and educated ukemi will help us. But we can't keep shutting out the expression of the void through our insitence on something 'new and better'.
Hi Jen,

I'm not really clear on what you're saying here. Are you conflating mushin and "the void"? My understanding of "the void" is quite different than what you're suggesting.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2007, 08:31 PM   #36
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Not to mention cases in which tori follows the throw by landing on top of you!
Amen! Or as Chris and Chuck have pointed out, changing the angle/force/direction of the throw in mid-flight. As anyone with a modicum of skill can tell you, many throws can be changed mid-way thru the technique, to cause uke to fall awkwardly. And as you may well know, there are many similar throws in both jujitsu and aikido, that with slight modification, can make all the difference between "playing nice" and a fight-ender.

Quote:
No matter what the situation, you're better off with a high degree of that kind of skill than without it, I'd say.
Dave, I don't disagree that a higher degree of skill and athleticism is always a good thing to have. Like Bob, I'm merely questioning, not only the purpose, but the underlying assumptions regarding such purpose. And as Mike Haftel, Chris and Chuck have pointed out, it might be useful as a sensitivity drill, or as you put it, an exercise in "blending with the ground". But I have my doubts on grounds of "choice", practicality and safety.

Likewise, best to you.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2007, 05:43 AM   #37
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

As I said earlier, the need/opportunity for the wide-leg front breakfall doesn't come up very often in dojos that don't know and practice the fall. This is because throws that demand it are not used in places that don't have it. This goes even moreso for Ostoff/Nivelus style flip falls. They never come up without the corresponding throws. I think perhaps people are coming to erroneous conclusions based on only seeing half the picture, or only having seen someone try to apply half the picture to inappropriate scenarios.

I could easily apply a converse argument about people who don't know how to fall and rotate around these non-traditional axes: if Waite or Ostoff lay a throw on you in which you have to fall this way, you're screwed. Ostoff has throws that would require you to do an acrobatic somersault over nage's head or let your arm get broken if you tried to use traditional ukemi. As I also alluded to earlier, not long ago, I thew someone in a way that would have been easy to fall out of with one of the wide leg side-front falls, but he didn't know how well enough, panicked, and crashed on his shoulder. These only seem like abstract, unuseful sensitivity exercises because you aren't seeing the corresponding nage-waza.

The side-back fall on the other hand, seems useful to me in most any situation in which one would normally backward roll or take a backward rocking fall. I use these all the time, whereas I almost never use the side-front roll or breakfall - these only come up very occasionally at the most ASU dojos I have trained at. The Ostoff flip falls are completely inapplicable without the proper throws.

As for the changing throws in mid-stream argument, why does this not apply equally to forward or backward rolls? There are plenty of opportunities to sabotage someone attempting to take one of these falls as well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2007, 09:52 AM   #38
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Hi Jen,

I'm not really clear on what you're saying here. Are you conflating mushin and "the void"? My understanding of "the void" is quite different than what you're suggesting.

Regards,
Hi Tarik,
I'm not conflating last time I checked. Although I did put on a little weight last year, but I've since lost it.

I'm not speaking so much from an outside understandingor from my intellect but from experience of space and the void that I feel . In fact I don't only feel it, I hear words and wisdom spoken while in this place. It is the arena of my greatest hearing, oneness, and learning. If you haven't felt or heard this, I hope you do.

-Perhaps, if there were no 'shin' in your mushin, then our recipes would be more similar.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-25-2007 at 09:56 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2007, 11:31 AM   #39
davidafindlay
Dojo: Shodokan
Location: London, UK
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 52
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

I dunno. Having read the posts above I understand the question is "this ukemi - why?". Responses so far seem to be along the lines of "when to use / when is acceptable / feels good / etc" and then moving on to the role of uke to take care of themselves etc.

I've a slightly different take on this, specifically I guess, related to giving and taking elevated ukemi from an irimi throw. The ukemi I mean is both the "clothesline" type thing, and also getting flipped over tori's front leg in a particularly enthusiastic aigamae or gyakugamae ate (insert your preferred terms here ). My perspective is having uke able to take this ukemi lets tori learn a feeling of full connection between the ground and the point of contact they are driving into uke.

And similarly, as uke, you get to feel how this sort of really solid force comes into your structure and how you need to hold yourself together inside even when airborne with nothing to hold onto.

When I started to learn these variations of these throws - both as tori and also as uke, it definitely taught me a new quality to the movement. The quality was like allowing greater solidity in my throws and over a larger range of movement.

Does that mean this ukemi is necessarily the right sort of thing wrt "best ukemi in a Re@L LiFe siTuAtioN - or even in randori etc" ... no.

And as I write all this, I remember one of the things Nariyaman sensei used to say (and pretty sure this was specifically in context to some of the flashy ukemi) was "uke and tori improve their ukemi and waza together to improve their understanding of aikido". Of course, maybe he just wanted bouncy uke to give him a good demo jk.

Regards,
Dave.

Last edited by davidafindlay : 08-25-2007 at 11:34 AM. Reason: just a quick snip as thread seems to have moved on a bit...

Dave Findlay
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2007, 11:37 AM   #40
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Quote:
Dave Findlay wrote: View Post
I dunno. Having read the posts above I understand the question is "this ukemi - why?". Responses so far seem to be along the lines of "when to use / when is acceptable / feels good / etc" and then moving on to the role of uke to take care of themselves etc.

I've a slightly different take on this, specifically I guess, related to giving and taking elevated ukemi from an irimi throw. The ukemi I mean is both the "clothesline" type thing, and also getting flipped over tori's front leg in a particularly enthusiastic aigamae or gyakugamae ate (insert your preferred terms here ). My perspective is having uke able to take this ukemi lets tori learn a feeling of full connection between the ground and the point of contact they are driving into uke.

And similarly, as uke, you get to feel how this sort of really solid force comes into your structure and how you need to hold yourself together inside even when airborne with nothing to hold onto.

When I started to learn these variations of these throws - both as tori and also as uke, it definitely taught me a new quality to the movement. The quality was like allowing greater solidity in my throws and over a larger range of movement.

Does that mean this ukemi is necessarily the right sort of thing wrt "best ukemi in a Re@L LiFe siTuAtioN - or even in randori etc" ... no.

And as I write all this, I remember one of the things Nariyaman sensei used to say (and pretty sure this was specifically in context to some of the flashy ukemi) was "uke and tori improve their ukemi and waza together to improve their understanding of aikido". Of course, maybe he just wanted bouncy uke to give him a good demo jk.

Regards,
Dave.
Sounds good to me.

jen

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 12:19 AM   #41
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote: View Post
They never come up without the corresponding throws. I think perhaps people are coming to erroneous conclusions based on only seeing half the picture, or only having seen someone try to apply half the picture to inappropriate scenarios..... These only seem like abstract, unuseful sensitivity exercises because you aren't seeing the corresponding nage-waza.
So, Kevin, basically what you're saying is:
1. such ukemi is the result of specific nage waza?
2. and for a specific type of nage waza this type of ukemi is the appropriate response?
3. there is no other more appropriate response to such nage waza?

I'm just not convinced. This presumes that the purpose of such ukemi is primarily "escape" and that it is the ONLY means of escape. I think there are much better ways to "take ukemi" than such athletically demanding "ukemi". What about making your ukemi so "small" and internal that you can't be thrown, and any attempt to do so results in nage throwing themselves?

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 05:52 AM   #42
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
So, Kevin, basically what you're saying is:
1. such ukemi is the result of specific nage waza?
2. and for a specific type of nage waza this type of ukemi is the appropriate response?
3. there is no other more appropriate response to such nage waza?

I'm just not convinced. This presumes that the purpose of such ukemi is primarily "escape" and that it is the ONLY means of escape. I think there are much better ways to "take ukemi" than such athletically demanding "ukemi". What about making your ukemi so "small" and internal that you can't be thrown, and any attempt to do so results in nage throwing themselves?
I don't know that much about Waite's philosophy, but I have experienced many throws that derive from him that require falling along the 'yoko' axis. Considering it only increases your options and freedom of movement in both throwing and falling, I don't see how it could be bad. If less is more, why not do away with forward rolls as well?

Hypothetically, I suppose you are right: if I were some kind of tai chi superman, I wouldn't have to learn how to take that kind of fall and everyone, including Sensei Waite himself would just bounce right off of me. I guess I wouldn't need to know any kind of fall. Since no one is invincible, and if someone became even close, they would have to train a long time to achieve it, I don't see how this is relevant to what I call reality.

Finally, the overall principle you are getting - minus the absurd hyperbole - is incorporated into Frank Ostoff's Aikido. The whole reason for the flip fall - which you apparently have never felt or even seen once - is to enable you to challenge nage and press into them while remaining vertical, seeking to reverse them right up until the last instant. Anyway, this is getting silly. I'm not going to argue at length with you about something of which you are so ignorant that you don't even know that your "objection" reads like an endorsement.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 08-26-2007 at 05:55 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 06:17 PM   #43
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

My, my Kevin.... just because I happen to disagree with you, is no reason to get snarky and personal. You know nothing about me, much less whether I have seen or done this type of ukemi - which I have done and can do. The fact that I "choose" not to do so is a different matter - age and athletic ability not withstanding, I just happen to think there are other better ways to train in aiki than simply "taking ukemi".

In any case, you still haven't convinced me of its utility either way. No other martial art that I know of or have trained in does ukemi this way. So I'm not convinced that such ukemi serves any real purpose as a logical means of escape from a specific type of throw.

Save the ad hominem dig and try to bloster your argument with real facts and evidence.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 07:16 PM   #44
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
My, my Kevin.... just because I happen to disagree with you, is no reason to get snarky and personal. You know nothing about me, much less whether I have seen or done this type of ukemi - which I have done and can do. The fact that I "choose" not to do so is a different matter - age and athletic ability not withstanding, I just happen to think there are other better ways to train in aiki than simply "taking ukemi".

In any case, you still haven't convinced me of its utility either way. No other martial art that I know of or have trained in does ukemi this way. So I'm not convinced that such ukemi serves any real purpose as a logical means of escape from a specific type of throw.

Save the ad hominem dig and try to bloster your argument with real facts and evidence.
Really? When and where have you trained with Ostoff, Nivelus, or one of their top students? So far as I know, there is no video available, so you'd have to have personal experience. If you think it's the same as what Waite does, or the same as what is in those videos, you have no idea about it, nor have you been comprehending my posts in this thread.

Also, you might want to look ad hominem up, and the word "personal" too, I guess. I don't see either in my post. What I see is you shrinking from a legitimate, if firm, challenge to your flippant dismissal of something that you don't understand and probably haven't even seen by misrepresenting my words and impugning my motives. It was evident to me by the thrust of your argument that you have never trained with or seen Ostoff/Nivelus-style Aikido, so the attribution of "ignorance" was a simple deduction, not an insult.

As far as arguments go, you haven't addressed mine, nor has anyone else. This latest missive is nothing but bald assertions and fallacies. Why do the "I can sabotage you in the middle of a throw" criticisms not apply to forward and backward rolls as well? Why is being able to fall and throw in a more limited number of ways and directions better than more?

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 08-26-2007 at 07:19 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 07:43 PM   #45
Mike Haftel
Location: Hokkaido
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 87
Japan
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote: View Post
Absurd. Uke always has choices. Even if your uke weighed 40 pounds and you just plain picked them up and chucked them down they would still have a choice about how they oriented their body when falling... even if you taped their wrists and ankles together first.

The kind of 100% "control" you claim to seek has nothing to do with reality. To start with, it's impossible. If you had ever handled animals, you would know it's often nearly impossible with an animal weighing as little as 10 pounds, much less a resisting human being. A good throw is not about imposing your idea of what you want to happen onto uke with complete dictatorial control. In fact, quite the opposite - it's about blending with their energy, finding their weaknesses, their balance. It's a lot more about paying attention to and working with them than it is about "total control".

The idea that Aikido is either some kind of brutal rape of uke or "dancing" is a false dichotomy. Likewise the idea that the former is 'advanced' and the latter just for beginners. Frankly, this just sounds like a bunch of insecure macho chest-thumping.
I think you misunderstood what my point was.

I'm not talking about "100%" control over ukes limbs as they flail and fall and squirm around. Like you said, that's far from reality.

However, if you throw somebody and they can sit there and decide, "ok, I'm going to fall now and in this direction..." you haven't really thrown them. They just fell for you.

I've most deffinitely been thrown in ways where I had absolutely zero choice about how, when, where, and why I went down.

Yes, I realize you can variate how you orient parts of your body, instinctively (through training), when you breakfall.

I am not speaking from a purely "Aikido" mindset. For you to sit there and lecture me about what a "good throw" is, is simply near-sited on your part. Please don't mistake my tone for hostility. I'm not trying to come off that way.

I think, when it comes down to it, martial arts are about total control. Yeah, you can BS about all the philosophy and other goals of various arts. But, the inherent nature of conflict, itself, is control. Why else would one person seek to impose their will upon another? That is what is happening when someone attacks you, physically, isn't it? An attacker is trying to control you, at some level, via physical battery and mental assault.

If uke can choose what their mental and bodily reactions/responses are to your counter-attack/defense/whateveryouwanttocallit, then you haven't managed to prevent uke from controlling you--they have still managed to maintain some level of self-control. When someone attacks you, you don't want them to have any self-control, do you? I sure as hell don't. Yes, this is a daunting task, is it not? But, that seems like a good goal to aim for whilst training.

And, uke will instantly know the difference in (T)echnique when nage has instant and complete control over them. It is a scary feeling: To attack someone only to feel that they have complete control over you. The first time I felt that I nearly shat myself. Granted, there are few artisans out there who can manage to do this competently. I know I sure can't, yet.

But, that's part of the reason why I train.

Last edited by Mike Haftel : 08-26-2007 at 07:56 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 08:09 PM   #46
Kevin Wilbanks
Location: Seattle/Southern Wisconsin
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Mike,

I still think we have a fundamental philosophical disagreement about what is going on in a conflict and what works. My idea of what makes Aikido a powerful approach to conflict is that it goes beyond the idea of control that you are using. Instead of trying to control a person or a situation, you instead seek to fully enter and understand it, and to influence it where it is easiest to influence by remaining open, present, and without preconception or plan. The result is usually not exactly what the hostile/attacking person wanted or what you wanted, but something in between that is hopefully more favorable to you.

I think this is also what makes a throw work well with little effort. If you try to impose your idea of how the throw is going to go - to do something specific to uke or apply a pattern, you end up losing track of them and what is actually happening and get stuck or have to use brute force. It's by remaining open to the constant changes of the situation and continuously paying full attention to what the other person is doing that you are able to influence the situation most powerfully. It's the openness to ongoing change that gives you more influence than the other guy, who is presumably not so adept or enlightened. I wouldn't call this "control".

I think control is ultimately an illusion. I don't think anyone is really in control of anything, except in very limited ways. Thinking that we have control or seeking to impose it is the root of most of our problems.

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 08-26-2007 at 08:12 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 09:50 PM   #47
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Wait a minute, so these people have some sort of copyrighted trademark on body movement? And unless I've trained with such and such a teacher in such and such a "style", I'm not qualified to make comments? Nor am I qualified to say I've done this sort of ukemi? What? You can infer or deduce that I don't "understand" or I'm ignorant because I'm arguing from a different perspective? How interesting.... a thinly veiled insult is still an insult.

Yeah, whateva Kev... if you read my posts again, you'll see I'm not about taking ukemi in this OR any other way... like Tarik said, it's "nice" if someone wants to do a "fancy turn out", but it's not how I prefer to train either... doesn't mean I can't do it, or that I haven't done it... even if I haven't trained with the "right" people....

In any case, you haven't responded to any of my questions either. And since you're asserting that such ukemi exists as a specific escape response to specific throws, the burden of proof is on you.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 09:50 PM   #48
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 450
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

It is pretty obvious that part of the reason there is some opposition to these newer forms of ukemi is "ukemi envy". A couple years of working these falls out for yourself is really the only way to become aware of their utility. It takes much less time and effort to type up a message board post about how these falls are probably not useful.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 10:01 PM   #49
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

Yea, that's it... "ukemi envy".

Save it Ben... even Chuck hasn't seen anything like this in his distinguished career... BTW, where's that video proof?

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 10:17 PM   #50
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 450
United_States
Offline
Re: What is the purpose of this type of ukemi?

http://www.aikidojournal.com/downloa...ia=video&id=49
video contains multiple examples of "falling leaf" ukemi applied effectively
better luck next time
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ueshiba taking Ukemi Ellis Amdur General 200 03-27-2007 05:40 PM
What is good ukemi? Jerb Training 7 01-06-2007 06:29 AM
Personal Views on Ukemi mjchip Training 15 12-21-2006 08:25 PM
"Silent" Ukemi Jerb Training 11 12-20-2005 05:37 PM
causing no (serious) harm jss General 92 05-06-2005 11:16 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:09 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2023 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2023 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate