Aikido against strong people...

Krystal Locke wrote: Maybe sensei could also demonstrate what uke's role should be for the set practice technique.

Common practice for those teaching in my dojo. Sometimes we have whole classes on how to be a good uke. Often when I am the one leading the class. How is a person supposed to understand ukemi if no one ever teaches them? How would students understand their roles as senpai and kohai if it is never explained?

It's been a while since I posted...

Several things come to mind with regard to this topic:
1. Ultimately, I think we need to understand one of the reasons martial training exists is to shorten the gap between power, skill, and experience in combat. The very answer we are pursuing (in martial training) is to be effective against adversaries who are stronger, better, and have more experience. While not wrong, I think we need to first be honest about what we are doing and whether this aspect is in our training goals (or not). While there should exist some expectation of failure in training, generally I believe a good metric of success is improving our ability to be effective against partners who maybe hold advantages in one of more areas of power, skill or experience.

2. Kata is not combat. Kata is a shape that two (or more) people agree to perform. Sometimes, our uke role breaks kata; sometimes our nage role breaks kata. Either partner deviating from kata results in that form being broken. If uke does not know kata, the failure rests with her. If nage does not know kata, the failure rests with her. if both break kata... you're not doing kata. For example, partners A&B are performing a kote gaishi kata. Partner B (uke), thrusts a punch out with no intention to hit partner A and no motivation to move in a continuation of the technique. Partner A tries unsuccessfully to continue kata, but ultimately decides to just "do something else." This is a broken kata in which neither partner did the kata. We need to be clear in our expectations and not confuse bad kata with a strong or skilled or experience uke who is just superior and requires better technique.

3. Learning is not "wrong". We sometimes over-identify that "throwing" is success and a partner who thwarts that outcome is "wrong". The role of the partner in most of our training is educational - she is a feedback tool who's job is to make you better. The problem is that "throwing" is not always an indicator of success and uke is not always helpful in making you better. Keiko is about creating a science experiment in a controlled setting to find and develop a reproduce-able solution. We need to be critical of learning, even when the experiment fails. We need to be conscious of our role in helping run the experiment to achieve accurate results.

Strong is a relative term. I am stronger than my son. This is a relative comparison, not a definite statement. In 8 years, my son will be stronger than I. In training, "stronger" should also be relative. If it's perennial, you have a problem...

Sean Jefferies wrote: I was wondering if any of you have experienced trying an aikido move on a strong person and having it not work? Do aikido moves always work, or only with certain people if you catch the off guard? Also what would you do then, apply more force, change to another move or something else completely? Just curious, as I've had varying results with different moves, which could entirely be down to me not executing the move correctly.

Find the fit...even the strong fall down.

Sean Jefferies wrote: I was wondering if any of you have experienced trying an aikido move on a strong person and having it not work? Do aikido moves always work, or only with certain people if you catch the off guard? Also what would you do then, apply more force, change to another move or something else completely?

First of all. Yes, yes and more yes. If anyone claims otherwise, they're lying!

May I make a suggestion on something to try at your next class? I find this works for me when I struggle with very very strong ukes. Not always of course, but it's worth a try as it is simple Newtonian physics.

This is long winded and probably won't translate off the mat, but it's worth a shot!

Consider the center of mass of your body, for ease, let's just say your belly button. If you stand in hanmi, without taking a step, you can move your belly button a few different ways. You can shift your weight from your back foot to your front foot. Let's say that's the "X" axis. You can bend your knees up and down. Let's say that's the "Z" axis. Lastly, you can rotate your hips left and right. It's a rotational axis , but let's call it the "Y" axis.

With two directions each, that's 6 axis' total. Newtonian physics shows that forces from perpendicular vectors do not affect each other. In other words. If someone VERY strong is pushing on you in the "X" axis, you *may* be able to bend your knees and shift the "Z" axis as it is perpendicular to the force they are applying.

Iikyo is a really good one to practice this on. Push against uke until you struggle, let's say you push a positive X. Hold that direction. Don't give in, you're not a pacifist! So that means don't move negative X. Of the 6 directions, that eliminates 2 of them (X+ and X-), so either bend your knees (Z+ or Z-) or turn your waist (Y+ or Y-).

You will only be able to go so far in one of those 4 directions, eventually uke will stop you again. It may be 10 centimeters, it may be 1 millimeter. Regardless, now you are in a new position. They system has changed do the same thing, don't give up your position but pick one of the 4 other directions.

Sorry that was long winded... what can I say? I'm an engineer!

Steve Nelson wrote: I'm an engineer!

I enjoyed reading your comment immensely. One Dojo I trained with for a long period, had half the Yudansha being physics teachers and the other half were engineers. Thus making my learning and understanding of Aikido very simple.

Half the people in my first dojo were engineers. The others were medical like me. Aikido can actually be very scientifically fascinating!

John Hillson wrote: Half the people in my first dojo were engineers. The others were medical like me. Aikido can actually be very scientifically fascinating!

One of my favorite dojo to visit when I would get home to Gulf Coast Texas had a preponderance of rocket scientists. That made training fun. Should gone to visit when I was on a project at Ellington, but no time.

I like training with engineers. Being one, myself, their "metaphors" work for me. Mostly, because the metaphors aren't. They are physics. Which is what's happening. Works for me.

Richard Campbell wrote: Thus making my learning and understanding of Aikido very simple.

Baker Sensei always says: "It's simple, but not easy"

Sean Jefferies wrote: I was wondering if any of you have experienced trying an aikido move on a strong person and having it not work?

Of course, everyone has had that experience.

Sean Jefferies wrote: Do aikido moves always work, or only with certain people if you catch the off guard?

If done correctly and at the appropriate time, they work. Knowledge of what's coming can make that more challenging, easier, or no different at all depending upon the skill level and intent of each practitioner.

Sean Jefferies wrote: Also what would you do then, apply more force, change to another move or something else completely?

If more than 4oz of force is needed, I'm of the opinion that you're doing it incorrectly or you're not doing the correct movements for the moment. See above.

Sean Jefferies wrote: Just curious, as I've had varying results with different moves, which could entirely be down to me not executing the move correctly.

The path with the greatest amount of success at solving such problems is a path where principles are taught over techniques, and the techniques are vehicles for illustrating the principles, and practicing tools that allow the student to problem solve and discover how to move correctly. Even with the answers, it takes mileage to increase your percentages of success.

Best,

The problem may be in trying to move a strong person instead of letting the strong person move in the way and direction that is better for both of you.

Mary Eastland wrote: The problem may be in trying to move a strong person instead of letting the strong person move in the way and direction that is better for both of you.

I agree.

Just let the strong person move where they want to go and then provide appropriate "help" with that movement at the right moment and everything will be just fine.

Robin Johnson wrote: I agree. Just let the strong person move where they want to go and then provide appropriate "help" with that movement at the right moment and everything will be just fine.

Yes, and...

.... watch sensei closely, and see what he or she does even before the technique starts that facilitates getting the desired technique to work even on strong people. We might not all be at that level yet, but it doesn't hurt to start early.

A related question. When called up to be ukemi fodder for sensei, can you (the general you, not the specific you, Robin) tell if he or she wants a specific attack? What's the difference in presentation for katate dori vs gyakute dori? Shomen uchi vs yokomen? How does the presentation affect the technique?

Back in the day, maybe 2003ish, I saw Lorainne DiAnne bust a demo uke at a seminar totally down to size for a same side grab when she wanted cross-hand. He got up slowly, bowed, and got it the heck right for the rest of the weekend. I'm still not sure how I felt about that. It was.... illuminating.

Krystal Locke wrote: .... watch sensei closely, and see what he or she does even before the technique starts that facilitates getting the desired technique to work even on strong people. We might not all be at that level yet, but it doesn't hurt to start early.

Brilliant! Yes, this! My sensei sometimes advises students to "start earlier you think you have to" - meaning, when it's done properly, there are things going on very early that are essential to the eventual technique. But to get that, as you say, you have to watch early, too.

Mary Malmros wrote: Brilliant! Yes, this! My sensei sometimes advises students to "start earlier you think you have to" - meaning, when it's done properly, there are things going on very early that are essential to the eventual technique. But to get that, as you say, you have to watch early, too.

Dealing with stong folks is one of the benefits of having the sensei I lucked into. He's not a whole bunch taller than I am, and is not an overly buffed guy. While we dont have the same body type at all, neither of us can rely on size or strength. I am not as energizer bunny mobile as he is, but I can change the positions of my hands as I am grabbed.

With sensei, I watch the presentation. He always puts a person at a disadvantage from before they attack. With Andrew (a godan at the dojo, remarkable man, should be on the seminar circuit, imo) I watch the angles he uses. If I can get a tiny bit wise from watching each of them, I will be happy.

The only way to develop your waza is to find people on which it does not work and constantly refine it until it does.

Rupert Atkinson wrote: The only way to develop your waza is to find people on which it does not work and constantly refine it until it does.

Careful here ... It's useful to realize that all Aikido techniques are not created equal. There's a reason that one of O'Sensei's favorite techniques was shiho-nage ... he was probably shorter than everyone he used it on.

Shizuo Imaizumi's style of tenchi-nage involves striking uke's clavicle rather vigorously. I can think of many circumstances where this technique would be best left in the Aikido tool box. It's one thing to joyfully practice every technique with every combination of uke and nage, and it's another to always expect similarly positive results.

Just an after thought: if you cannot move a stronger person from where you are, change where you are, just because you cannot move them doesn't mean you cannot move yourself ...

Lynn Seiser wrote: Just an after thought: if you cannot move a stronger person from where you are, change where you are, just because you cannot move them doesn't mean you cannot move yourself ...

Yeah, moving you is the easiest way to move them.

Ron

That usually means that you do not have enough strength to make the technique work.

Now strength, in this case, is not muscular strength. Rather, it is the strength that arises from your body working to effect the technique. And while the technique makes such work efficient, having your body's musculature trained to maximize the effect of the technique will lead to the technique working on the stronger opponent.

To improve, perform your kotegaeshi on a someone who can resist it, and feel which muscles of your body work when you execute the kotegaeshi. Once you identify the muscles, work to remove the tension from the muscles whenever the technique is done, and once you can relax the muscles while executing kotegaeshi, the technique should be able to work.

aikido against strong people is too easy. there is no fun in it. now, aikido against weak people, that's a lot more challenging. those weak people are vicious and insidious. they sneaked up on you and gave those floppy, dead fish attacks which annoying to no end. of course, you would have to correct them and show them how to attack correctly, like jim carey sensei demonstrated in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szcjoomPA8c

had folks learned to attack correctly, the world would have been a better place!

Sean Jefferies wrote: I was wondering if any of you have experienced trying an aikido move on a strong person and having it not work? Do aikido moves always work, or only with certain people if you catch the off guard? Also what would you do then, apply more force, change to another move or something else completely? Just curious, as I've had varying results with different moves, which could entirely be down to me not executing the move correctly.

Aikido, as well as Judo techniques will work for everybody. Try different angles, you will see if you are using strength with different angles. The results will be very significant.

I think if you know what you're doing and pull the stops off using power and speed, all the techniques will work. I found a full speed irimi nage (sic) in an unlikely place on YouTube - how cast, watch to the end of video for full speed. I feel really sorry for uke! He had to put both arms on the ground to avoid being faceplanted at one stage https://youtu.be/KihiVy0in4E