Aikido against strong people...

I was wondering if any of you have experienced trying an aikido move on a strong person and having it not work?

Do aikido moves always work, or only with certain people if you catch the off guard?

Also what would you do then, apply more force, change to another move or something else completely?

Just curious, as I've had varying results with different moves, which could entirely be down to me not executing the move correctly.

Sean Jefferies wrote: I was wondering if any of you have experienced trying an aikido move on a strong person and having it not work? Do aikido moves always work, or only with certain people if you catch the off guard? Also what would you do then, apply more force, change to another move or something else completely? Just curious, as I've had varying results with different moves, which could entirely be down to me not executing the move correctly.

Consider it a training opportunity - lots of drills and exercises do just that.

If you mean in a non-training environment you have to remember that aikido is like a tool-kit. What you do depends on the circumstance which includes the size of your opponent and what they are doing.

Applying more force - is probably too late if you have already realized you did not apply enough.

Switching techniques is pretty much half of what aikido is all about. In a non-compliant situation I expect half of the initial techniques will not work - timing only has to be a little off. You are expected to switch to something else.

Oh ok that makes sense.

One such instance I'm talking about is when i tried kotegaeshi against a guy that was a bodybuilder it just didn't work. I've never had an issue with this technique with weaker people. Which makes me wonder if aikido people at least subconsciously put moves into order of effectiveness, in the given situation. If so I'd be intriged to hear what mental ordering systems they are using.

Sean Jefferies wrote: Oh ok that makes sense. One such instance I'm talking about is when i tried kotegaeshi against a guy that was a bodybuilder it just didn't work. I've never had an issue with this technique with weaker people. Which makes me wonder if aikido people at least subconsciously put moves into order of effectiveness, in the given situation. If so I'd be intriged to hear what mental ordering systems they are using.

Well there is another thread on spontaneity - once you start ordering then all is lost.

Kotegaeshi is one of those techniques that is easy to resist even if you are not a body builder unless you take the balance first where the natural response is to open your hand.

Take a normal size person and have them clench their fist as hard as they can and try to move their wrist.

Take the body builder and have him extend all his fingers and try to move their wrist.

I will bet you wont succeed in the former but will in the latter.

Applying more force seems like it would always be the wrong answer in training. If you are applying the technique, it will work. If it isn't work, you aren't applying it (i.e., you aren't doing it correctly). Doing the same thing harder isn't going to make it more successful, but it could result in injury to yourself or someone else.

"But what if I'm attacked for real?" Is that something that happens to you on a regular basis, then -- or that you know will happen to you at some already-determined point in the future? No? Then it's in your best interest to train as best you can to apply the technique correctly. If you don't, and you ARE attacked for real, simply applying more force may very well not get the job done -- and that's the point. Sometimes I tell newbies that aikido assumes that there is always someone bigger and stronger than you. Safer to assume that your "for real" attacker is that bigger, stronger person, and that you will not defeat them with size and strength. So, learn aikido.

(and if you DO have immediate self-defense needs, then by all means keep up your aikido training, but don't try to press your aikido into service for self-defense yet. Just as if you were a novice pilot who had just had your first lesson flying a Cessna, if you had to get around the world, would you try to use your newfound skills to do it? No, you'd go buy a plane ticket. Use the same common sense here.)

Tohei had to modify his Aikido to deal with 300lb Samoans, a number of other shihans have said similar things. Pretty sure more force was not the answer, rather more finesse. Kuzushi mitigates strong attacks, kuzushi prevents the strong from gathering and projecting their power, kuzushi makes gravity and their mass your allies. If you are locking to create pain compliance, rather than control, then you are dependent on uke’s pain tolerance and the robustness of their joints. If you are controlling their balance and structure, it takes very little to make them fall down and go boom. A little atemi never hurts if uke has locked down and grounded. Using the ground is a core skill, drilling to move a well grounded uke has value, standing like an immovable lump of granite when nage is trying to learn something is both dickish and of questionable martial value or intent. If you are unable to evolve a response to Johnny vice gripper, consider that you may be putting too much emphasis, effort, and force at the point of contact and not moving your body to compel your course of action.

There is always someone just around the corner who is bigger, stronger, meaner and more indestructible than you could possibly imagine. Your aikido technique might work, and maybe running him over with a large truck might work too. But the bottom line is to apply your aikido technique properly and it will likely work with virtually anyone.

You can have some fun playing with the idea if you want. Get a partner who is bigger and stronger and ask him to give you varying levels of resistance. You will find that if you apply the technique well and gain kazushi, you will often succeed in taking him to the mat. It is also a lot of fun to play around with henka waza too. If your partner is able to prevent you from doing Technique A, then you immediately switch to Technique B and see how that works. Both practices can be fun and enlightening, but should be reserved for before or after class. Most sensei would be a little irritated if you were experimenting like this in a regular class. Just remember, NOTHING works every time, but with quality practice and training, aikido usually works.

Sean Jefferies wrote: I was wondering if any of you have experienced trying an aikido move on a strong person and having it not work?

Yes. I kept training and got better. Then it worked.

Sean Jefferies wrote: Do aikido moves always work, or only with certain people if you catch the off guard?

Aikido moves only work with certain people if you have poor aikido. This shouldn't be the case if you have good aikido. However, it is exceptionally difficult to get a technique to work on someone that is focussed more on foiling your technique than attacking.

Sean Jefferies wrote: Also what would you do then, apply more force, change to another move or something else completely?

Assuming you are talking about the person that is focussed on foiling your technique, I usually hit them in the head. The don't like it much, but oh well...

Sean Jefferies wrote: Just curious, as I've had varying results with different moves, which could entirely be down to me not executing the move correctly.

How long have you been training? If the answer is less than 10 years, I wouldn't stress about it. These things take time.

I am often that stronger person that some what to train with and some want to avoid.
Whether the waza works or not is often a matter of level.
At lower level, as long as the technique is basically correct, I tend to let it work.
At a higher level, I tend to offer more resistance.
Usually I can resist because I feel it coming.
Don't try more/harder, but less/softer.
Always connect and take balance prior to making physical contact.
Just some ideas from this side.

There are basic kihon exercises that I had to learn with a man who could bench press four hundred pounds. Katatedori, morotedori, kubishime and ushiro ryotekubidori all stand out for me. Tai no tenkan and kokyudoza are things I like to practice with someone giving me power. Let uke get a solid grip and give enough that if you aren't moving with good alignment nothing much happens. I like working these alignments because this translates into good alignment for everyday life, and higher functional strength.

However, timing and placement are a separate practice and with kuzushi Uke is less able to bring strength to bear. We're all built in such a way that in some directions we have little strength or a more easily compromised balance.

When strength messes up practice is when uke knows I am, for example, supposed to lift up. Uke bears down. I am "supposed" to clash and resist their direct force. When uke pushes down, sink or lead out. Don't practice beating your head against a brick wall. If uke's hands are stiff, then you can probably punch him in the face faster than he can release tension and respond. Otherwise, it is common for beginners to make kaitenage easy by resisting iriminage and visa versa, or twisting into kotegaeshi to avoid nikyo.

There is a lot of fun to be had with strong uke, but strong beginners are often brittle. Resisting also sets up bad jiyuwaza ukemi as all the exactly wrong reflexes were trained. So, when I train against power I move very slowly so uke does not get damaged, but I also am not using speed to cover up a hole in my own structure.

Sean Jefferies wrote: I was wondering if any of you have experienced trying an aikido move on a strong person and having it not work? Do aikido moves always work, or only with certain people if you catch the off guard? Also what would you do then, apply more force, change to another move or something else completely? Just curious, as I've had varying results with different moves, which could entirely be down to me not executing the move correctly.

First, I always tell my students that it is never just a matter of strength. Any uke of any skill can thwart any throw at any time. Period. Just consider that if you have decided to practice a throw from mune-tsuki. At any time, uke can just simply decide not to throw a punch. And so, even the agreement on an attack is already a matter of cooperation. It then becomes a matter of taking that initial cooperation to some conclusion.

Second, realize that we all connect to others at a very unconscious level (through empathy). Just yawn or turn your eyelids inside out and gauge the reaction The main reason why using less effort is so often (appropriately) advised is because when nage relaxes, uke naturally relaxes.

Last, we've all resisted techniques. Think back to your mindset when you did. It was invariably because nage was treating you a bit more like a tackling dummy than a team member. You might have actually feared for your safety - or perhaps you wanted to show them up for being so darned inconsiderate. A big, big part of Aikido is the art of connecting - and that's what often takes ten years to learn.

And so, after 30 years, when I sense that someone is starting to resist, I just lean in and whisper - "relax". And all is well.

You go in strong and you come out strong. (in a heap on the ground) Good technique will always prevail.

Richard Campbell wrote: You go in strong and you come out strong. (in a heap on the ground) Good technique will always prevail.

You obviously have not met Mongo!!!!

Peter Rehse wrote: You obviously have not met Mongo!!!!

No , but my Dojo nick name is called Popeye and Sensei throws me around like a rag doll.

I always tell folks that strength is never a disadvantage in a confrontation or daily life, but it can be a disadvantage in training. In a crisis, you are what you train not what you aspire to be.

If you regularly overcome poor technique or position with strength, you're technical skills won't grow and there is always someone stronger that will be impossible to defeat by mere strength. And more importantly, when a technique doesn't work in a crisis, you'll attempt to fix the problem with strength instead of flowing into a better position and technique.

I also believe very strongly (pun intended) that routinely using strength as an uke/tori to block technique even with good intentions isn't a good idea since it can train in reflexes to confront poor technique with tension and strength. In a crisis, instead of taking advantage of the poor technique to escape and reverse, you'll stand there immobile with a look of disdain until the guy stomps on your exposed knee. If you are not moving, you are a target.

I was teaching an intro class a few years back. One gentleman was very skeptical that I could be strong. He kept negating what I was teaching and asking "what if?" questions.

I was very patient and answered his questions and encouraged him to keep at what we were doing.

Towards the end of class we were practicing a entering motion with no throw because everyone was so new. He grabbed at my wrist as firmly as he could and pushed really hard.

We were both so surprised as he flew off my curled wrist and bounced on the floor. I literally did nothing except curl my extended wrist slightly at the perfect time.

He was nicer after that.

Mary Eastland wrote: He grabbed at my wrist as firmly as he could and pushed really hard. We were both so surprised as he flew off my curled wrist and bounced on the floor. I literally did nothing except curl my extended wrist slightly at the perfect time.

Thats exactly what I was referring to Mary. You go in strong and you come out strong in a heap on the Dojo mat.

Why are you trying an aikido move versus doing the technique that the situation calls for? If you want to do a specific technique, you might have to do a lot of preparation to set up the correct situation.

Speaking as a strong person who many newer stdents feel is impossible to throw,

No. Using more muscle to try to force the technique won't work. What it will do is tick off the strong person and potentially get you punched. Not that I ever punch beginners but boy sometimes when a newbie is cranking as hard as they can and all the while they have me locked in place sending force straight down my leg, making it nearly impossible to move, it can be hard to resist.

When you find yourself in such a situation ask your teacher to help you to understand the the technique and how to do it with that particular person's body type. If the strong person is senior to you he/she is probably not trying to be impossible to throw. If he/she is truly grounding you out and making it impossible ,on purpose, your teacher will recognise it and help them to better understand their proper role as a senior uke.

Eventually strong people realise that using their strength to oppose nage just sets them up for an even bigger fall and not the one they were expecting. They also learn that making it impossible for beginners to do techniques means they will soon run out of people to practice with.

Being the senior student in the dojo is nice and all, but being the only student in the dojo isn't at all a good thing.

Krystal Locke wrote: Why are you trying an aikido move versus doing the technique that the situation calls for? If you want to do a specific technique, you might have to do a lot of preparation to set up the correct situation.

Maybe because that is what the teacher is teaching and the student is not advanced to the point of knowing how to do free technique and reversals? Sometimes teachers don't want their students just doing whatever they feel is right because they want the student to work on something specific? Maybe the student does not yet have enough experience to be able to discern ,"what the situation calls for"?

If one wants to practice a specific technique and this is what is being taught it isn't really good form to be a resistant uke to the point of making your fellow students feel discouraged from trying to learn.That sort of thing is best left for two similar level students who have been around a bit and who have both agreed that that is the kind of practice they are up for.

For a while there a few years back most of my students were around a full head taller than me (I'm 5'9") and outweighed me by quite a bit. Everyone in my dojo was physically stronger than me except for my wife. I even had one guy whose job it was to walk up a mountain in the morning, move rocks around to repair footpaths and walls while he was up there, and he'd then walk down the mountain and come to the dojo. Big, strong, rather stiff in his movements as a result of the hard labour he was doing all day.

I made them all practice with my wife who usually floored them with rather satisfying thumping noises as they hit the tatami

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: Maybe because that is what the teacher is teaching and the student is not advanced to the point of knowing how to do free technique and reversals? Sometimes teachers don't want their students just doing whatever they feel is right because they want the student to work on something specific? Maybe the student does not yet have enough experience to be able to discern ,"what the situation calls for"?

All that and then some. Training isn't a self-defense situation, and must not be treated as such. When you're in class, you need to try to the best of your ability to do what is being shown, as uke and nage, and as sempai and kohai. Newer students should not try non-aikido techniques, or even aikido techniques that aren't the ones being shown; senior students should respond to the junior students in ways that will help them learn what they should be learning right now (i.e., how to do this technique this way). Sometimes that means pointing out an error that the junior is making, but only when the error is getting in the way of what they're trying to do right then, or creates a dangerous situation. Otherwise, zip your lip and let Sensei do the teaching.

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: Maybe because that is what the teacher is teaching and the student is not advanced to the point of knowing how to do free technique and reversals? Sometimes teachers don't want their students just doing whatever they feel is right because they want the student to work on something specific? Maybe the student does not yet have enough experience to be able to discern ,"what the situation calls for"? If one wants to practice a specific technique and this is what is being taught it isn't really good form to be a resistant uke to the point of making your fellow students feel discouraged from trying to learn.That sort of thing is best left for two similar level students who have been around a bit and who have both agreed that that is the kind of practice they are up for.

Then a simple "Hey, I'm a noob and just learning, could you not crush my wrist quite so much please?" should suffice. But, maybe not, since the noob probably already said that when he or she bows to uke and says "O-negai shimasu." If muley uke is more advanced than nage, he or she should know this. If uke is not more advanced than nage, he or she should learn this.

Maybe sensei could also demonstrate what uke's role should be for the set practice technique.

Cherie Cornmesser wrote: Speaking as a strong person who many newer students feel is impossible to throw, No. Using more muscle to try to force the technique won't work. What it will do is tick off the strong person and potentially get you punched. Not that I ever punch beginners but boy sometimes when a newbie is cranking as hard as they can and all the while they have me locked in place sending force straight down my leg, making it nearly impossible to move, it can be hard to resist.

I have always wanted different tapping out methods that mean different things. I'd like taps that mean:

1. Yes, perfect, oh holy crap, please stop now. Wow, how did you do that?

2. That just hurts, but you dont have my balance and I can counter you. We should stop and try again.

3. I can tell you're working really hard, but you are so far off base that this is really not going to end with anything but your overconfidence and my frustration, and maybe a torn gi.

4. Your pin sucks, but you are blissfully unaware that you are kneeling on the edge of my breast. Please stop 10 seconds ago.

Krystal Locke wrote: I have always wanted different tapping out methods that mean different things. I'd like taps that mean: 1. Yes, perfect, oh holy crap, please stop now. Wow, how did you do that? 2. That just hurts, but you dont have my balance and I can counter you. We should stop and try again. 3. I can tell you're working really hard, but you are so far off base that this is really not going to end with anything but your overconfidence and my frustration, and maybe a torn gi. 4. Your pin sucks, but you are blissfully unaware that you are kneeling on the edge of my breast. Please stop 10 seconds ago.

We use words for those things in my dojo. Sometimes far too many words when just a few will suffice. But all the same if it is actually needful to tell someone to move their left foot two inches to the left, or to stop cranking on a joint we just tell them. Most of the time I find that beginners can really cause me more than passing discomfort if I am being a proactive partner. But that is speaking as a person who can outmuscle most of the people I train with. I usually will put up with a certain amount of pain to let someone find things on their own, as long as I don't feel like I am actually in danger of being injured.