Escape from ikkyo ??

There are many ways to "escape" ikkyo -- and many ways to stop the escape. There is one particular way to escape ikkyo, though, that I find troubling. Certainly some atemi, good old hair grabbing, a pencil in the nostril could solve the problem, but I'm looking for an elegant, aikido-like solution to my problem.
There are a myriad of ways to perform ikkyo. I will start with a short description of a basic ikkyo in my dojo. This is my foundation for this whole problem & post.
If we assume that I wish to carry out an ikkyo using uke's right arm then, after a good smack toward's uke's face nage will grab uke's right wrist or hand with his (nage's) right hand. Nage's right hand will either encircle uke's wrist with the te gatana on the "pulse-side" or I will have uke's hand in a nikkyo-position. Nage's left hand will be holding uke's arm in such a way that the te-gatana pushes down on uke's arm immediately above the elbow. Nage will then slide forwards, pushing uke's elbow "through" his face (or ear) and continue the movement until uke almost loses his balance forwards. Then, at the correct time uke will be pushed diagonally towards the left and down on his stomach.
Now, if uke -- just before he loses his balance -- makes a roll over his left arm then he is out of the ikkyo - not necessarily out of trouble, though, as he is very vulnerable to many other techniques just as he is coming out of the roll and is on his back.
Ikkyo can easily be turned into a kokyunage if, at the end of the technique, nage does not put uke on his stomach, but uses uke's arm and a "push" towards the side of uke in order to throw him forwards, sometimes into a roll. This is the intentional use of ikkyo as a kokyunage whereas I am talking about the unintentional roll of uke when performing basic ikkyo, i.e. not as a throw but as a controlled takedown and lock with uke on his stomach.
I have found two ways to stop uke rolling -- both quite difficult and very sensitive to timing. Either (if holding uke's hand in the nikkyo-position) one can pull up and back on uke's elbow, thus turning the ikkyo into a nikkyo and thus blocking the escape-roll. This is either done by grabbing uke's gi (or other clothes) at the elbow or actually letting the left hand swivel towards the "opposite" (inner) side of uke's elbow. Alternatively one can push uke much more straight down in the final move, thus trapping uke's head (face) against the ground, essentially placing the head (face) of uke as a block against the roll.
Both of these "stops" have to be executed early, as soon as uke's roll has actually begun it makes much more sense to control uke as his roll is about to finish and he is on his back.
Alternatively, if timed correctly, one can change the strategy when uke has started the roll and turn the ikkyo into the kokyunage, sending him on his way by using his own roll-energy combined with a push and ki-extension of nage.
Does anybody have a suggestion on how to optimally stop uke from rolling out of "my" basic ikkyo?
Please let me know if it sounds like I've confused left/right or something else somewhere, damn it's not easy to describe techniques in text !!

All the best
Stefan

There are a number of ways. I like Saito sensei's three levels of timing - very early (almost uke attacking, a Jodan version of shomenuchi ikkyo), a chudan version a little later in the technique, and the arm getting all the way behind the back, and then eventually all the way to the ground.

Bruce Bookman showed me that morotedori is basically ikkyo, and kotegaeshi, and nikyo, and sankyo, etc. two hands on one, with subtle variations in the hands.

The reversals are about learning the holes in the basic techniques, and then learning to fill the holes in. Mi don't approach reversals asa way of reversing anything but rather a way to improve the technique being reversed, or seeing when the technique should be discarded in favor of another. My two cents, hope that made sense.

Ikkyo is off balance and cut down. If you do it fast uke will be cut down. If you do it slow, uke has time to think .... after cutting down I sometimes reverse the arm a-la-nikyo/rokyo, and carry on. A good uke can sometimes slip out ... which is good ... we should all try to be 'slippery' as uke. Other ukes might be starting to counter, knowingly or not, which is not quite the same game.

Instead of grabbing the elbow, grab their shoulder and weight underside with your body take them immediately to ground driving their shoulder strait down. It ain't pretty, but takes away their ability to roll out.Just another variation of the technique.

Sorry, read it a bit more clearly. The zig zag, and the downward trajectory is probably needing some refinement that I cannot picture. If they are being projected away and forward, then the roll is easier.

I am assuming you're a nice guy - for uke to be rolling, their head is going to lead the motion but you are not smashing their skull into the mat. The zig zag can be a part of a leg sweep or a knee to the ribs, then a knee drop on the back of the shoulder.

What happens when you do hanmihandachi ikkyo? Specifically the variation with no large body movement.

When standing, are you having uke' decide to roll or are they already in flight and rolling?

I found this 7 minute clip of Christian Tissier Sensei giving a very interesting ikkyo lesson. WOW!! I hope. Not sure I've done it correct with the link, but search in youtube.com for Christian Tissier Ikkyo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX3Oru_CbKY

I suppose I tend to be a rather nice nage, but even if I'm not (within reason), uke can still roll out of the ikkyo - providing he initiates his roll early enough. I haven't actually tried to be ultra-violent as I think it could be quite dangerous to violently "catch" his head against the mat as he is actually trying to roll - neckbreak fear !!!

I will ask Sensei about this and humbly beg for an hour of ikkyo-wisdom specifically around my little "ikkyo problem". I

All the best
Stefan

It is immediately apparent from the video that speed could be the deciding factor in effectively applying ikkyo

My take on ikkyo is that you are applying kokyo-ho through a different vector, taking control of uke's center through their elbow.

In the shomen-uchi version, I'm used to not grabbing the arm during initial contact, but extend my fingers instead, using the "te-kanana" (hand blade) which makes the bottom-edge of the hands the contact points, the same point which is critical in kokyu-ho. From there, one can begin a grip of the elbow, through which one rotates the arm and shoulder through their axis, locking up uke's body in a way that they can't rotate out of it.

From there, with uke bent over, one can go diagonally forward in either direction to complete things.

Of course, at speed this is easier said than done, as it means combining an initial large circular motion with the forward cut with a small circular rotation of the arm, all the while maintaining your own structural integrity and timing, and being very sensitive to what is going on within yourself and uke.

To escape, one has to avoid the initial internal destabilisation (kuzushi) in the first place.

Hanmi-handachi ikkyo is much harder, as the timing is completely different. In doing that, you are taking downward movement of the cut and sweeping it out sideways and forward, causing uke's own momentum to send them into the mat. The arm rotation is in there but much smaller and more focussed. That's how I see it anyway.

Stefan Hultberg wrote: I found this 7 minute clip of Christian Tissier Sensei giving a very interesting ikkyo lesson.

If you like what Tissier does, here's a break-down of Ikkyo from Shomen uchi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCcYz4lixkE

He doesn't directly show how to solve your pinning problem, he just focuses on the entry, but maybe that's enough.

Hopefully it's interesting anyway. Subtitles are available if you can't hear it so well.

Here is a link to a demonstration of the "type" of ikkyo (here from shomen uchi) that is standard syllabus in my aikido-environment. This is something quite close to the ikkyo I tried to describe in the original post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOVoIKqbYcg

All the best

Stefan

Stefan Hultberg wrote: Here is a link to a demonstration of the "type" of ikkyo (here from shomen uchi) that is standard syllabus in my aikido-environment. This is something quite close to the ikkyo I tried to describe in the original post. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOVoIKqbYcg All the best Stefan

This is a better video of shomen uchi ikkyo: It´s the first waza.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3JtD6KRMZ0

Peter Gröndahl wrote: This is a better video of shomen uchi ikkyo: It´s the first waza. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3JtD6KRMZ0

Very Nice ! There it is

Thanks

Stefan

Here is a rough example of the counter I have a problem with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D10w1VFGZh0

All the best

Stefan

Stefan Hultberg wrote: Here is a rough example of the counter I have a problem with:

You mean the roll reversal?

As you can see in the clip, uke is jumping from the frying pan into the fire. That's not a problem.

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: You mean the roll reversal? As you can see in the clip, uke is jumping from the frying pan into the fire. That's not a problem.

I know it's not a problem, there are a billion things that can be done and, as you say, uke is not exactly better off.

What I'm looking for, though, is some elegant way to stop the roll reversal (didn't know that term ), preferrably without going too much into "other techniques". I suppose I'm looking for a very traditional aikido-certified and peaceful - but controlling - way to carry out ikkyo and make sure uke lands on his stomach - or face - in a very aikido-nerdy way

I have a session with Sensei about this specific topic tonight. Will report

All the best

Stefan

Stefan Hultberg wrote: I know it's not a problem, there are a billion things that can be done and, as you say, uke is not exactly better off. What I'm looking for, though, is some elegant way to stop the roll reversal (didn't know that term ), preferrably without going too much into "other techniques". I suppose I'm looking for a very traditional aikido-certified and peaceful - but controlling - way to carry out ikkyo and make sure uke lands on his stomach - or face - in a very aikido-nerdy way I have a session with Sensei about this specific topic tonight. Will report All the best Stefan

Wow - that's a lot of qualifications. Peaceful, elegant - yet controlling.

The ikkyo I know and love is far more difficult to role out of. The bent elbow travels over uke's head as tori steps around him. Far more direct with little wiggle room.

Soooo - in my opinion as the elbow moves away from the body the opportunity to role out increases. Keep it tight.

Stefan Hultberg wrote: What I'm looking for, though, is some elegant way to stop the roll reversal...in a very aikido-nerdy way

Whithout resorting to other techniques, aikido-certified, peaceful but controlling ....tell your uke to not roll away and to stick to the kata.

Stefan Hultberg wrote: I know it's not a problem, there are a billion things that can be done and, as you say, uke is not exactly better off. What I'm looking for, though, is some elegant way to stop the roll reversal (didn't know that term ), preferrably without going too much into "other techniques". I suppose I'm looking for a very traditional aikido-certified and peaceful - but controlling - way to carry out ikkyo and make sure uke lands on his stomach - or face - in a very aikido-nerdy way I have a session with Sensei about this specific topic tonight. Will report All the best Stefan

All waza have escapes, if uke rolls it's probably because you're too pushy. A better cut and more downward feeling will open other escapes but the roll will not be a natural escape for uke

I also find it enlightening to go through the Daito Ryu kata. Ikkajo is not a singular isolated thing, but a group of 24ish techniques including jujigarami, kotegaeshi, shihonage and so on. So, I am not sure if we are to think of ikkyo in isolation.

I think in the context of this thread it is the Aikikai terminology that is being referred to. There is no real connection to the Daito-Ryu groupings.

Peter Rehse wrote: I think in the context of this thread it is the Aikikai terminology that is being referred to. There is no real connection to the Daito-Ryu groupings.

You are right.

When I get bogged down in doing a technique, I find it freeing to remember Aikikai is a very new organization. We're referring to a name that is maybe only from the 1940s, maybe even later. My own teacher did show very ikkyo derived stuff that were called kokyunage or koshinage. There are many variations on a theme that Aikikai calls the same name and they all claim similar lineage and history.

When I read a dokka accredited to O Sensei that reads Ikkyo can take your whole life to perfect, I give myself a little license. I feel I get trapped when I try to strictly define a movement as one singular variation and thing. I like ikkyo as I learned it; I learned something different than I was taught for oshitaoshi last weekend when I took a seminar from another organization.

John Hillson wrote: My own teacher did show very ikkyo derived stuff that were called kokyunage or koshinage. There are many variations on a theme that Aikikai calls the same name and they all claim similar lineage and history.

Perhaps you refers to a rumor that Aikido 'kyo' is lessons or ideas but not techniques.

Well, after many years of thinking about and tinkering with this specific aikido problem I suppose I must accept one thing - ikkyo can be one tricky technique. Fascinating, though.

After one final session around the problem last night at my club we agree that much can be done to stop the discussed "reverse roll" out of ikkyo. Certainly I am a bit too nice in my general ikkyo training and certainly I am a bit too "pushy", actually encouragning a roll unless uke knows he's supposed to end up on his stomach.

A reverse roll does not necessarily put uke in a better position - so there's no real problem, one has to be aware though that a reverse roll is not always possible to stop - in strict ikkyo. The roll, however, can be easily stopped by going into other techniques, e.g. pulling back on the elbow and going into nikkyo.

In "pure ikkyo" a reverse roll becomes more difficult if one pulls back on the arm a little bit when uke is starting to go down. Also - force more straight down rather that forwards increases the likelihood of uke's head becoming trapped against the ground and therefore precluding any roll - or at least guaranteeing a true "pain in the neck". Being really "violent", basically slamming uke down on his face with the speed of light and the weight of an elephant, may be an effective way to stop the reverse roll, but it is bloody difficult to test realistically

Any future suggestions for how to carry out the perfect non-violent, soft and round but controlling, relaxed but failsafe, traditional aikido-certified and completely awsome ikkyo??

All the best

Stefan

Stefan Hultberg wrote: Any future suggestions for how to carry out the perfect non-violent, soft and round but controlling, relaxed but failsafe, traditional aikido-certified and completely awsome ikkyo??

Take uke where there is no support, apply downward pressure and sit down. If you push against the ear, you leave uke on their feet and in control of their own body. They let you do ikkyo to them.

Also realise that if uke wants to escape, they will, why do you want to do waza on somebody that are retreating.

Peter Gröndahl wrote: Take uke where there is no support, apply downward pressure and sit down. If you push against the ear, you leave uke on their feet and in control of their own body. They let you do ikkyo to them. Also realise that if uke wants to escape, they will, why do you want to do waza on somebody that are retreating.

Fair point, even if I'm sure one could come up with some scenarios where one would want to.

I have been bugged by the technical intricacies of of trying to stop uke from rolling even if I can see the combat-strategic advantage of letting uke do the roll if that's what he's hell bent on. There are many possibilities down the roead then, probably simpler and safer than trying to stop the roll.

Go with the flow I suppose.

All the best

Stefan