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Old 09-01-2017, 09:53 PM   #1
Avery Jenkins
 
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For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Forget the octagon. That's nothing but entertainment, and with its rules, referees, weight-matched opponents, good lighting, good footing and everybody dressed for the job (which is to score points), it has nothing in common with the "real world."

There is a time-honored tradition for figuring out how good your martial art -- and you, as a martial artist -- is.

Go to a bar. Down a couple of scotches. Insult a few girlfriends until somebody's boyfriend takes offense and tries to deck you.

If you eliminate the threat, then your aikido is good. If you get the snot pounded out of your, your aikido is bad.

Of course, this test misses most of the point of aikido, but at least you'll know if your martial art works in the "real world."

Avery Jenkins
www.averyjenkins.com
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Old 09-02-2017, 05:21 AM   #2
Dothemo
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

I am definitely considered a rank newbie, (6 months sporadic aikido training) but I know that my Aikido would work in the 'real world', because my personal aikido also encompasses my previous significant kickboxing training. I am very comfortable with pugilism and I would not limit myself to what I have been taught for obvious reasons. Being proficient at Aikido would be fantastic however, I hope to get there one day! I personally believe pure aikido works in the real world, I believe in it enough to not test in a bar (I know what you're saying though!).

Perhaps my belief contravenes the spirit of aikido?

I guess what I am trying to say is, if someone is threatening your safety, sovereignty, you are in imminent danger, can't run and your aikido isn't working out; sometimes you just gotta punch them as hard as you can in their fat face until they leave you alone.
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:45 AM   #3
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Avery, that cracked me up. If your aikido is as strong as your sense of humor, you could defeat the Incredible Hulk with tai no henko alone.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 09-04-2017, 10:23 AM   #4
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Avery, that cracked me up. If your aikido is as strong as your sense of humor, you could defeat the Incredible Hulk with tai no henko alone.

Avery Jenkins
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Old 09-20-2017, 02:39 PM   #5
earnest aikidoka
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Or let an Uke grab you with full strength and try to execute a technique. If you can't, then you'll know your aikido won't work in the real world if you can't throw someone giving you the throw.
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Old 09-24-2017, 05:00 AM   #6
StefanHultberg
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

I know aikido works for real fights. It has helped me avoid physical conflicts for almost 20 years....

All the best

Stefan
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Old 09-24-2017, 07:21 AM   #7
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Hansel wrote: Or let an Uke grab you with full strength and try to execute a technique. If you can't, then you'll know your aikido won't work in the real world if you can't throw someone giving you the throw.

Am I missing something here?

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 09-24-2017 at 07:22 AM. Reason: quotes

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Old 09-26-2017, 03:01 PM   #8
sorokod
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Am I missing something here?
That depends, can you execute a technique when grabbed with full strength?

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Old 09-26-2017, 05:25 PM   #9
Robert Cowham
Dojo: East Sheen Aikido and Kashima No Tachi
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

I think the full strength grab thing is overdone, even if I quite enjoy such work these days - but it tends to be in a practice situation.

One time a bouncer tried to grab me, and my instinctive evasion of the grab and then lightly holding his arms (with open hands) - but I saw his eyes change - something unexpected had just happened. From that point it was all verbals - no physical attempts, and I asked for a chat with the manager to resolve things. To me the automatic reaction is "real life" - and timing is all.
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Old 09-27-2017, 06:13 AM   #10
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
That depends, can you execute a technique when grabbed with full strength?
What does that have to do with timing, correct distance and the attacker not knowing what I will be doing next?

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Old 09-27-2017, 02:59 PM   #11
sorokod
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
What does that have to do with timing, correct distance and the attacker not knowing what I will be doing next?
You need to know how to crawl before you can run. Saito sensei used to say " if you are held strongly and can't move, you are not doing a martial art"

So, can you move if you are held with full strength? Without huffing and puffing, without lashing at your opponent, without get-out-of-jail atemi, can you move?

Last edited by sorokod : 09-27-2017 at 03:01 PM.

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Old 09-27-2017, 07:01 PM   #12
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Of course I can.

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Old 09-28-2017, 03:17 AM   #13
sorokod
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

I am not the poster of the message:

Quote:
Or let an Uke grab you with full strength and try to execute a technique. If you can't, then you'll know your aikido won't work in the real world if you can't throw someone giving you the throw.
but the way I read it is that is necessary (but not sufficient) for you to be able to move when held with full intent for you to be effective outside of the dojo

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Old 09-29-2017, 12:21 PM   #14
GMaroda
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
You need to know how to crawl before you can run. Saito sensei used to say " if you are held strongly and can't move, you are not doing a martial art"

So, can you move if you are held with full strength? Without huffing and puffing, without lashing at your opponent, without get-out-of-jail atemi, can you move?
I find the "without lashing at your opponent, without get-out-of-jail atemi" interesting. Do you consider atemi superfluous to Aikido or am I misunderstanding your statement?
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Old 09-29-2017, 02:06 PM   #15
sorokod
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Greg Maroda wrote: View Post
I find the "without lashing at your opponent, without get-out-of-jail atemi" interesting. Do you consider atemi superfluous to Aikido or am I misunderstanding your statement?
Misreading, some people consider atemi a tool of last resort, that is a misunderstanding.

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Old 09-30-2017, 08:26 AM   #16
GMaroda
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Misreading, some people consider atemi a tool of last resort, that is a misunderstanding.
Fair enough.
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Old 09-30-2017, 04:33 PM   #17
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

I agree with David Soroko here. My teacher K Chiba spent some months in Iwama after he had a back injury and he also believed that atemi was a major aspect of aikido. (I believe the perecentage varies from teacher to teacher, but for him it was around 90%.) However, other teachers I have had did not stress atemi so much, in the sense that they did not do it as often as K Chiba. But they clearly realized its importance. (I am thinking here of Tada, Yamaguchi and Arikawa.)

P A Goldsbury
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:27 PM   #18
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

This started off whimsical - but there really is a legitimate question here. As Ueshiba Kisshomaru said, "After all, aikido is a martial art." So i'm slowly working on a blog (slowly because I am gathering the data where I can). To whit: law enforcement and correctional officers who train in - and use - aikido on the job. I've heard from some correctional officers at a major penitentiary in California, and police in various parts of the country, most recently in the MidWest - an ASU student. Honestly I don't expect to have enough data for a year or so - as I'm doing this through informal conversations when I present training seminars to police or correctional officers - but the data so far is interesting. I've heard iriminage, nikkyo, ikkyo, unbendable arm (the guy tries to stand up and the officer places an extended arm out and the guy bumps into it and drops back in his seat).

Ellis Amdur

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Old 10-01-2017, 04:16 AM   #19
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
However, other teachers I have had did not stress atemi so much, in the sense that they did not do it as often as K Chiba. But they clearly realized its importance. (I am thinking here of Tada, Yamaguchi and Arikawa.)
I am guessing you are talking about Hiroshi Tada? I find this interesting because the instruction I got from my instructor, concerning Sensei Tada's techniques, always had an atemi (punch, elbow, knee, kick) in them. Certain movements were used specifically against a grappling type attack (from ryo mune tori for instance) with a combination of punches and kick or knee in them. I was also taught that the ryotetori attack comes accompanied with a knee or headbutt.
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Old 10-01-2017, 04:32 AM   #20
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Looking through notes: Here's one - From a probation/parole officer:

Today I was assaulted (attempted), by an inmate. After a verbal confrontation due to his failure to follow a direct order, he chose to cross the approach line without permission, still running off at the mouth. It was immediately clear by his body language and facial expression that he intended to take this to a physical level. I deliberately retreated a few steps, warning him of the consequences of his actions. No response, still coming. At this point, I reversed my retreat and quickly crossed the gap between us. His attack was simple, a quick attempted overhand right punch, but easy enough to parry and permit me to gain a strong wrist grab and move directly into the technique we practiced on Tues. [NOTE: SHIHONAGE!] without any conscious thought. I know I didn't execute perfectly but was able to maintain sufficient points of contact [He is referring to the way I teach, derived from Ueshiba Morihei's prewar instruction, where there must be three points of contact - two hands and the forehead - on the arm] to avoid being struck or pushed off, and he went down, hard. I thought his wrist had broken, but was only badly strained. I really struggled to lower my center with my shin against his side, but once accomplished, he was completely immobilized at that point. The beauty of it was the fact that having gained control, I could have maintained that restraint indefinitely, although by this time two other staff had responded and we were able to perform a full multi-person restraint until the police and State Parole arrived to take him into custody. My instinct, of course, was to finish the technique with an atemi to the jaw with either an elbow strike or punch to the ear, but I restrained myself here, I cannot justify striking an inmate once control is established. Although it all happened so quickly, what I recall was what was discussed on Tues; that it's not what we're doing to an opponent, but what we're doing for ourselves, i.e. protect and execute properly, it ran through my head like a mantra. It was like it all happened in slow motion, just like we practiced it, but in real attack time.
Frankly, I was astounded that the technique had assimilated so quickly into nerve/muscle memory that enough was there to allow me to effectively utilize it.
It wasn't until I had time to "review the tape" (so to speak) afterward, that I could assess both the shortcomings of my movements (failing to turn my chest quickly enough to his side as I went around and under); and the strong points ( keeping my head protected and following through with the takedown and the immobilization).

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Old 10-01-2017, 06:24 AM   #21
sorokod
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I agree with David Soroko here. My teacher K Chiba spent some months in Iwama after he had a back injury and he also believed that atemi was a major aspect of aikido. (I believe the perecentage varies from teacher to teacher, but for him it was around 90%.) However, other teachers I have had did not stress atemi so much, in the sense that they did not do it as often as K Chiba. But they clearly realized its importance. (I am thinking here of Tada, Yamaguchi and Arikawa.)
Some Iwama atemi standards https://youtu.be/zQCVpC20MNg?t=135 .These are standards in the sense that atemi is in the kihon technique and taught this way from the beginning. The one I haven't seen until practicing for quite a while is the kick during entering into shihonage (to prevent potential leg sweep counter ).

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Old 10-01-2017, 07:21 AM   #22
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Thanks Ellis, that was really interesting.

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Old 10-01-2017, 08:58 AM   #23
Mario Tobias
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

My belief is that aikido works. The thing is aikido, as well as other martial arts, is first and foremost a system for understanding the basics of how the body works/reacts. Using it as self defense or applying it to the real world should only be of secondary concern until mastery of the latter is achieved.

This will take 10, 20 years, several decades before you understand even a hint of how the body works applying aikido movement. Just because one can do pretty techniques (or thinks he does) does not mean you "really" understand the technique deep down to its basics. Mastery is not about who collects the most number of techniques and correct movement does not equate to understanding of the basics. Even some very high level aikidoka, you can see flaws and openings when they do techniques.

Only martial artists who understand the principles of martial movement and readily see flaws and openings truly understand the art. Only then can you apply the art to some effect. Effectiveness of an art does not come before this. If a person doesn't understand the basic principles of how body works in aikido (and in legit martial arts in general) , then effectiveness in its application is immediately placed in question.

Last edited by Mario Tobias : 10-01-2017 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 10-01-2017, 04:58 PM   #24
nikyu62
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Cool Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
Using it as self defense or applying it to the real world should only be of secondary concern until mastery of the latter is achieved.
The aikido student in Seattle who used kotegaeshi to disarm a robber with a gun after studying for only 2 months would be surprised to learn that he really would not be able to use his art for self defense for 20 years...Tohei Sensei said he learned all he needed to know in 6 months and didn't think it should take years to be effective. I agree, though students all vary in how quickly they are able to absorb skills.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:21 AM   #25
MrIggy
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Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
This will take 10, 20 years, several decades before you understand even a hint of how the body works applying aikido movement.
Ok, riddle me this?! How did you come to this conclusion? How do so many people come to this conclusion concerning Aikido?
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