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Old 10-17-2009, 05:14 PM   #1
Mike Sigman
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"Discrimination".

Given the number of times I've seen the word "racist" on AikiWeb, I thought this would be a good thought-starter about the scope of what "racism", "racist", and "discrimination" mean. In my opinion, the use of personally-directed words of emotional-index is usually an attempt at coercion.

Note the remarks about the Jewish quotas that were in place until relatively recently in many "liberal" elite colleges. I remember reading about those quotas, but I never saw any uproar from the liberal side of the spectrum... and that's telling.

http://volokh.com/2009/10/17/asian-a...her-education/

If nothing else, I'm glad to see that some more clinical discussion of the factual issues is beginning to surface.
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Old 10-17-2009, 05:45 PM   #2
lbb
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Given the number of times I've seen the word "racist" on AikiWeb, I thought this would be a good thought-starter about the scope of what "racism", "racist", and "discrimination" mean.
Ok...so you claim you want to talk about definition...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
In my opinion, the use of personally-directed words of emotional-index is usually an attempt at coercion.
...and you immediately derail your own proposed discussion into one of usage.

Meaning. Usage. Two different words. Which do you want to talk about, and moreover, why???
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Old 10-17-2009, 05:51 PM   #3
Mike Sigman
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Ok...so you claim you want to talk about definition...

...and you immediately derail your own proposed discussion into one of usage.

Meaning. Usage. Two different words. Which do you want to talk about, and moreover, why???
Ummmm.... why the diversion from the topic, Mary. Your interpretation of a sub-topic has little to do with the comments on the URL and my original intention. Which I thought was pretty clearly stated. Try not to avoid the topic on the URL so much.

Best.

Mike
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:34 PM   #4
lbb
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Ummmm.... why the diversion from the topic, Mary.
Ummmmmmm, you diverted it yourself. Do you want to talk about meaning, or do you want to talk about usage?

(or do you, instead, want to agitate the feces...again?)
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Old 10-18-2009, 04:22 PM   #5
Mike Sigman
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Re: "Discrimination".

How about if I just agree with you in spirit that the article is an inconvenient bit of truth and pretend that it doesn't exist? Would that make it easier?

Mike
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Old 10-18-2009, 04:24 PM   #6
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: "Discrimination".

... why those are positively the best *kind* of feces!

Mike, This is a dangerous topic. What's up? Everyone knows it when they see it. And some people see it (or its reverse-) almost everywhere. double lose. Even the assertion that someone is racist serves a purpose nowadays.
Collectively, we've lost our marbles.
Do you really need more confirmation?

here is a t shirt i'm gonna buy

also; i think of you when I see this clip.
here's the idiot Ali-G wasting Andy Rooney's time.
clip here
enjoy ; )
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Old 10-18-2009, 04:31 PM   #7
Mike Sigman
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Mike, This is a dangerous topic. What's up?
Why is it a dangerous topic? You've been 'coerced' into believing it is because of the now too common passive-aggressive attacks by people who want others to believe as they do or suffer the consequences. Talk freely. Quit worrying about what the politically-correct peanut gallery thinks.

Mike

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When next they come for you, they will be wearing Birkenstocks and driving Priuses.
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Old 10-18-2009, 04:58 PM   #8
Aikibu
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Why is it a dangerous topic? You've been 'coerced' into believing it is because of the now too common passive-aggressive attacks by people who want others to believe as they do or suffer the consequences. Talk freely. Quit worrying about what the politically-correct peanut gallery thinks.

Mike

Okay Dokay then!!! Let me be quick to point out that I don't give a rats ass what someone else's POV on Discrimination is really.... Unless it's wrong....

There's your KOAN for the day Mike...

William Hazen
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Old 10-18-2009, 05:03 PM   #9
Mike Sigman
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Okay Dokay then!!! Let me be quick to point out that I don't give a rats ass what someone else's POV on Discrimination is really.... Unless it's wrong....

There's your KOAN for the day Mike...

William Hazen
Let me think about that. Is it single-entendre or double-entendre????

Everything I say is a lie.

Mike
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Old 10-18-2009, 06:33 PM   #10
Aikibu
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Let me think about that. Is it single-entendre or double-entendre????
Triple...You know like... Germany Japan, Italy, or Father, Son, Holy Ghost,

Quote:
Everything I say is a lie.

Mike
We "liberals" agree. LOL

All in good fun of course....

William Hazen
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Old 10-18-2009, 06:35 PM   #11
Mike Sigman
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
We "liberals" agree. LOL

All in good fun of course....
I'd agree.... but, then... everything I say is a lie.

Mike Sigman
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Old 10-18-2009, 06:36 PM   #12
Michael Varin
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Re: "Discrimination".

In the spirit of this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ882QYzr-M

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 10-18-2009, 06:39 PM   #13
Mike Sigman
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Re: "Discrimination".

So much for the discussion of discrimination against Asians, eh? 'Tis to laugh, the topic of selective outrage.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:15 PM   #14
mathewjgano
 
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Re: "Discrimination".

It's hard for me to find where to begin so I'll just start somewhere and see where it takes me.
I believe in the American Dream, which I take to mean an equal playing field for everyone. I also believe in creating systems to lift up the "bottom" of a society. I believe that is our societal obligation.
I believe Affirmative Action in higher education shouldn't be about race, it should be about economic status.
My "understanding" of Affirmative Action is that it is supposed to be a direct response to the long-term effects of racism in America. It basically says that to some degree, the best and brightest should give up seats in order to allow people who are still good and intelligent a chance at the best opportunities in order to promote growth in whatever particular community they hail from. I can buy this. A strong society means individual compromise to some degree (the difference between liberty and license as one prof once told me). It's still a band-aid response and I think it falls short in one major way: by the time people are ready to go to college it's too late. Affirmative Action efforts would be better served funding the ridiculously underfunded public schools...the ones that are in poor neighborhoods...which is the place where most people develop their life-long habits which will then determine their relative degree of economic success...generally speaking at least. So, that said, I think it needs some serious revamping.
Rambling aside I'll return to my earlier idea that Affirmative Action should probably be based on economic situation alone. In this way it still address the real issue as I see it.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:20 AM   #15
Aikibu
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'd agree.... but, then... everything I say is a lie.

Mike Sigman
So True....

William Hazen
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:17 AM   #16
rroeserr
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I believe Affirmative Action in higher education shouldn't be about race, it should be about economic status.
Why is it ok to take money from one group of people by force and give it to another group of people?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. --George Washington
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:28 AM   #17
Aikibu
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
Why is it ok to take money from one group of people by force and give it to another group of people?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. --George Washington
Like we did in Iraq???

William Hazen
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:43 AM   #18
rroeserr
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Like we did in Iraq???

William Hazen
What's your point? Are you actually implying that I support the Iraq war?
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:47 AM   #19
heathererandolph
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Re: "Discrimination".

Well, there is a lot of unfairness. People complain when a black is accepted into an institution of higher learning with lower scores (even though scores are not the only criterion used to judge individuals, there are other requirements which can be viewed with more subjectivity) anyhow, say just for the sake of argument this person is not as well qualified academically as someone else. If we are going to be comparing unfair situations, what about the white students who are accepted into the institutions also with lower academic preparedness, for various reasons. Students whose parents went to the school, students with wealthy parents, students with various situations that distinguish themselves from other students in the eyes of those making the decision. Nobody is hollering about these situations and saying that a wealthy student should not have been taken in their place.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:02 PM   #20
Mike Sigman
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Heather Randolph wrote: View Post
Well, there is a lot of unfairness. People complain when a black is accepted into an institution of higher learning with lower scores (even though scores are not the only criterion used to judge individuals, there are other requirements which can be viewed with more subjectivity) anyhow, say just for the sake of argument this person is not as well qualified academically as someone else. If we are going to be comparing unfair situations, what about the white students who are accepted into the institutions also with lower academic preparedness, for various reasons. Students whose parents went to the school, students with wealthy parents, students with various situations that distinguish themselves from other students in the eyes of those making the decision. Nobody is hollering about these situations and saying that a wealthy student should not have been taken in their place.
So your reply to a wrong is that "there are other wrongs, too"? That being the case, we should all just do as we please, I guess. Let's go tell that Asian guy "tough luck, loser". But wait... why don't we tell that to anyone who is not on our "special" list? Why just stop with discriminating against Asians? Every man for himself!

Either everyone is "equal" or they're not. Which is it to be?

Mike
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:31 PM   #21
rroeserr
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Either everyone is "equal" or they're not. Which is it to be?

Mike
Everyone is equal Mike, just that some are more equal than others...
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:36 PM   #22
Ron Tisdale
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Re: "Discrimination".

I guess start with an "equal" opportunity to do the work involved, and go from there. One issue I've always had with certain forms of AA is the fact that in some minds, it means an "equal" place at the trough, rather than an opportunity to do the work and benefit yourself and society.

Sure, in attempts to rectify things we probably (most of us, anyway) all call aggregious, some eggs are broken. Thinking these issues through is always a good thing. An African American is now president. Do we still want to use race (questionable term in and of itself) to determine opportunity? Perhaps as suggested, economics is a better way to go.

But before we get too ahead of ourselves...let's just remember that what I post below still goes on:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/19/int...age/index.html

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:52 PM   #23
rroeserr
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I guess start with an "equal" opportunity to do the work involved, and go from there. One issue I've always had with certain forms of AA is the fact that in some minds, it means an "equal" place at the trough, rather than an opportunity to do the work and benefit yourself and society.

Sure, in attempts to rectify things we probably (most of us, anyway) all call aggregious, some eggs are broken. Thinking these issues through is always a good thing. An African American is now president. Do we still want to use race (questionable term in and of itself) to determine opportunity? Perhaps as suggested, economics is a better way to go.

But before we get too ahead of ourselves...let's just remember that what I post below still goes on:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/19/int...age/index.html

Best,
Ron
You're side stepping the question of why it is ok to take money from one group of people and give it to another by force. It's not ok to take someones life by force, it's not ok to take someone's liberties by force, than why can you take someone's property by force?

What's the point he got fired; problem solved. Do we need a new special law that will waste money - so the politicians can show they are doing something about the problem? Should we create a task force, and a witch hunt? Should we water board him until he thinks its ok for black and white people to get married? Maybe its because there isn't enough black judges? Maybe there are black judges out there that don't like black men marring white women...

- or - if the government didn't control marriage people would be free to marry whom ever they wanted? Why should we ever let anyone decide what we should do with our lives?
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:53 PM   #24
Marc Abrams
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I guess start with an "equal" opportunity to do the work involved, and go from there. One issue I've always had with certain forms of AA is the fact that in some minds, it means an "equal" place at the trough, rather than an opportunity to do the work and benefit yourself and society.

Sure, in attempts to rectify things we probably (most of us, anyway) all call aggregious, some eggs are broken. Thinking these issues through is always a good thing. An African American is now president. Do we still want to use race (questionable term in and of itself) to determine opportunity? Perhaps as suggested, economics is a better way to go.

But before we get too ahead of ourselves...let's just remember that what I post below still goes on:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/19/int...age/index.html

Best,
Ron
Ron's point is well taken. I frankly am amazed at the number of people who conveniently believe that our country has "moved beyond" petty bigotry. Maybe I just have very good ears. I still hear anti-semitic, anti-black, anti-asian, anti-hispanic,...... comments on a regular basis just in the New York metropolitan area. Certain parts of this country can even "specialize" in their own particular form of bigotry. Bigotry is not the exclusive domain of the rich, poor, middle class, conservative, or liberal,.... We as a country still have a long way to go until people can truly be judged on who they really are inside. Until that time, we may need to try and counter-balance bad trends. That will always make some people upset. As a white, Jewish male, I have been on the receiving end of both bigotry and the wrong side of attempts to right the balance. It would be simple and convenient for me to blame the attempts to rectify and balance our society. I vented and developed a greater degree of sensitivity as to what it meant to be on the short-end of the stick in the game of life. That has only lead to me becoming more accepting of differences and open to possible solutions to vexing problems.

Marc Abrams

ps.- I did not take a graduate teaching position that was offered to me in Louisiana many years ago because of the remarkable degree of bigotry that exists in that state. Unfortunately, not that much has changed.
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:19 PM   #25
Ron Tisdale
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Re: "Discrimination".

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
You're side stepping the question of why it is ok to take money from one group of people and give it to another by force.
No, I am not. I presented a view that maybe it's time to re-evaluate some things, and I supported another poster's suggestion that it may be time to look at presenting opportunities to people based on need. Not taking money away from people...universities award grants from a pool of money that is most likely from a combination of sources. If they allocate that money based simply on economic need...exactly who is getting money "taken away from them"?

If I chose to discuss the topic at hand in a sensitive manner, how is that "sidestepping"? Even if it is...what is wrong with sidestepping, per se? We do it in martial arts all the time. Sometimes it's quite effective.

Quote:
It's not ok to take someones life by force, it's not ok to take someone's liberties by force, than why can you take someone's property by force?
Good question...why don't you ask the supremes about Eminent Domain? Let me know their answer...

I suggest you are using hyperbole because your arguement is weak. Otherwise, it would stand on it's own without drawing in other (in your view, more button pushing) issues.

Quote:
What's the point he got fired; problem solved.
Uh, actually, re-read the article...he has not been fired yet.

Quote:
Do we need a new special law that will waste money - so the politicians can show they are doing something about the problem?
Uh, did *I* make that suggestion? Is that what *you* think we need? I suggested no such thing.

Quote:
Should we create a task force, and a witch hunt? Should we water board him until he thinks its ok for black and white people to get married?
Again, did *I* suggest any such thing? Was it suggested in the article? *I* think you should try to calm down...hyperbole works best when used sparingly.

Quote:
Maybe its because there isn't enough black judges? Maybe there are black judges out there that don't like black men marring white women...
Actually, that would be because there **aren't** enough black judges...it's a matter of aggreement. And I'm quite sure there are a paucity of minority judges relative to the population in many places in this country still. But I haven't suggested any remedy for that. But you just did

Quote:
- or - if the government didn't control marriage people would be free to marry whom ever they wanted? Why should we ever let anyone decide what we should do with our lives?
Good point...let anarchy reign.

Anyhoo...

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 10-19-2009 at 01:23 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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