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Old 10-27-2006, 12:55 PM   #51
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hi David. I'm trying to think of a classical ryu that uses "blending"...I'm coming up empty. I think aikido is often wrong to translate awase as "blending"...not that I have a translation to offer. At least, nothing better than "matching"...

As for Tenru...I would postulate that "technique" or waza is the last thing Tenru needed to learn from Ueshiba. The stories of Tenru having trouble pushing that old man up a hill are probably told for a good reason. I can't think of why or how that would have to do with "technique"...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-27-2006, 01:02 PM   #52
MM
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Dan,

I've enjoyed these threads immensely. I have to say, it looks to me like someone tried to burn you and you just glowed more brightly. Mark's comments have really gotten me interested, but your overall positive attitude is the real key.
David, just a quick note. I sent you a PM about it.

I'm not an established judo person. I've trained in it (no rank) and played with some judo people (up to yondan), but my main focus at the time was Aikido. That was back when I was actively training in the Jiyushinkai. Thanks.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
However, I think your statement that "blending is a disaster" needs some further consideration. It seems that all you guys are talking about a kind of "immoveability" and "overpowering strength" kind of thing that causes uke to fall or lose his balance or strength on contact with you.
You've hit the nail on the head. In my training, I've been told that you must have kuzushi the instant you touch uke. Well, why not the other way around, too? Isn't kuzushi a key aspect to aikido training? Which brings me to your next points.

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
But that's why I always ask, "How does this relate to the sword?"

The essence of aiki, to me, is in the unarmed defender facing the sword-wielding attacker. And I think that in that case the disaster would be failing to blend.
Not failure to blend. But rather a different aspect to training. This "internal stuff" will get you the center, one point, kuzushi, aiki, etc. But once you've gotten good at it, you can apply it to anything you want: BJJ, karate, judo, underwater basket weaving, etc.

This is where it finds a place among Aikido. Or rather, in my view, one trains in something that should have been there all along. Where Dan and I differ is that he can't see how one can have this internal knowledge and train in Aikido. I do (I'm still writing that post).

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Much is made of how quickly Ueshiba told Tenryu that he had learned all he needed. Again, that followed literal decades of severe sumo training, yet there was still something he had to learn from Ueshiba and that was "technique". So while I am convinced that tanden development is central (and that's always been stated by the masters), there is still an important place for technique.

Best to you.

David
Yes, but the technique will be changed/adapted because of knowledge of internal training. Doesn't mean you'll disregard the external training. IMO, anyway.

Mark
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:40 PM   #53
MM
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Not the best with words or explanations... here's my rambling post.

Let me start with Aikido. We all start learning how to roll and fall. We start learning how to move. We learn the forms and the katas. You can't just do nikkyo without learning some kind of hand placement. So, there's a basic training here that all of us go through.

Internal. Again, we start learning from the beginning. There are exercises. We build our center. It's a long process.

If you are studying aikido, you need to learn a few skills for safety. Ukemi is one. Being soft and able to feel, rather than using muscle is another.

Now, let's say we start adding internal skills to aikido training. As tori/nage, you find things starting to become a bit easier. Easier isn't the right word, but it's the best one I can find. Next, you have to understand and know your own center to bring about the desired effect in uke. In that, you'll have to not only understand how the internal stuff works but also how the aikido part works. You just wouldn't stand there and sankyo falls into place. Not at this level anyway. Let me put it another way. If you're working on nikkyo and sankyo, your hands have to end up in different positions. In other words, there is a level at which you have to work on technique. This is tsukuri, where we learn how to fit.

As uke, you'll need to learn how to fall safely and how to receive energy. Otherwise you are going to hurt yourself. I don't see how learning internal stuff will help with ukemi as it relates to safely falling onto the ground, rolling, etc. Internal training would help with other aspects of ukemi, though. At more advanced levels, one might not need to fall, but definitely receive the energy.

As it is right now, if someone of Dan's or Mike's skills came to Aikido, it would be a little like Saotome sensei coming to a new dojo. Neither would be there to take the falls, really. They're there to teach. To bring students up to their level or surpass it. To show just what level students can attain. However, if you started with someone who is also learning the internal training at the same time, then as that person progresses, hopefully, the dojo would progress also.

In the end, though, it's really a matter of what the person wants to do. Given that Ueshiba had these skills, and a person who loves Aikido learns them too, there really isn't any reason he/she can't follow in the footsteps of Ueshiba. If that person loves Daito Ryu, they'd do that. Takeda showed the way.

We have quite a few examples of people who have learned this internal stuff and took it to various arts. I'm sure there's examples in the Chinese martial arts as well. And should you run into people who train and don't like what you're doing, there's always people around that will.

Mark
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:51 PM   #54
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hi Ron
No one has to play "I gotcha." Thats a choice. And..... it speaks volumes of the people doing it.
With any luck we might be able to have a decent discusion without turning into a personality bashing fest again. Why you guys continually put up with it is beyond me. It would get blown up in a heartbeat over at E-Budo. Jun is veery tolerent.
The whole idea was-I thought-to find out if any one can really do any of this stuff and then....if this stuff is relevant to Aikido, or could be made relevant, or in my view was the core of Aikido to begin with. And...as Aikidoka for you guys to make that call on a personal level. I don't use it in any traditonal art- but mores the point...can you if you want to?
The real discussion you guys should be having amongst yourselves is-if this stuff is in fact real.... as the guys have come back and reported.... what does that mean to you? If anything?
The second half of the question is whats relevant to your practice?
Leave off that I do MMA and Rob does MMA ..I dunno what Mike does. Forget that alltogether.
What can this stuff do for you. That's the discussion fellas

I think it is tailor made for Aikido but will make doing it on a student level difficult. If you are progressing steadily in your solo training your are just naturally not going to be the one falling down. And no one wants to be a ninny in the Dojo causing trouble. And the only to...fall down willl be then breaking structure and taking a dive.
If you're the teacher maybe that fine, but then again you aren't going to be moving ir flowing. So where then is the "Model" for students to follow? I dunno, thats up to you guys, I can't see it.

I'd suggest asking folks like Rob and Mike who have shown this stuff in the past to come down and do workshops. Anyone can learn these skills if they apply themselves and have someone who will work with them. It takes years, no one is going to get it overnight. The good news is that you can do the majority of the sweat work alone.

I'm still not interested in teaching. But, if anyone wants to meet me, write me at E-budo P.M. I don't come here much anymore. If we can, maybe we can hook up if you are in Mass. If you are willing to commit and are not overly serious and boring, maybe we can have some laughs and good training. I'm really not interested in "people with issues" Life's too short.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-27-2006 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:58 PM   #55
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hey Dan,

I really think folks are asking the questions, and trying to find out how to integrate this into their current skills, dojo, life...etc. Like anything else old/new...its a process. I can wait for it to play itself out, now that some headway is getting built up. Sooner or later someone will be close that can do the hands on coaching. In the meantime, I try to do what I can while my neck heals, and look forward to getting with you once that's happened.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:05 PM   #56
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Thats what I hope.
It will be great fun... say ten years out to see what various guys have done with it in their chosen arts. Meet up with Mr. X in Aikido and have him show this or that as internal skills in his art. Or with Mr. Y in MMA, or Mr. Z in Judo. Then its just what level of understanding is in their hands, not about which art is better.

Better yet to see who knows various health aspects of it. I still have a lot to learn with various aspect of this stuff myself. And the healing aspects? I haven't a clue! But I am hoping to fix that this year with a Pro. Someone I met who does both the martial end and the healing end and offered me some serious instruction.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-27-2006 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:25 PM   #57
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Thats what I hope.
It will be great fun... say ten years out to see what various guys have done with it in their chosen arts. Meet up with Mr. X in Aikido and have him show this or that as internal skills in his art. Or with Mr. Y in MMA, or Mr. Z in Judo. Then its just what level of understanding is in their hands, not about which art is better.

Better yet to see who knows various health aspects of it. I still have a lot to learn with various aspect of this stuff myself. And the healing aspects? I haven't a clue! But I am hoping to fix that this year with a Pro. Someone I met who does both the martial end and the healing end and offered me some serious instruction.

Cheers
Dan
Wow, that sounds great, Dan. Would be really neat to learn the health aspects, too. Guess in ten years when I've got one part down, you can teach me the other. As long as the person you're learning it from isn't named Vader. LOL.

Mark
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:28 PM   #58
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

David
Those were some kind words. Thank you so much. I have been surprised by not only the emails I have received, but from who sent them. Some guys I don't even know- others I haven't heard from in years from a previous art.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:29 PM   #59
David Orange
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
On judo rank, I don't think the rank enters into it at all. What matters is the format...judo's format lends itself to certain truths...and they are pretty much irrefutable. I think that is very refreshing.
Well, what I'm referring to is the objective standard of skill level. Let's say I claim powers. I have proven them against a judo brown belt. Well, you know about how good the brown belt will be, but it doesn't tell you much about my skills. But then I tell you I bested a sandan. That's getting more respectable. Then I tell you I can consistently toss around Japanese 6th dans....welll....if that's true, you have a good indication of some very meaningful power.

That's what I mean.

Best.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:53 PM   #60
David Orange
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

David Orange wrote:
But that's why I always ask, "How does this relate to the sword?"

The essence of aiki, to me, is in the unarmed defender facing the sword-wielding attacker. And I think that in that case the disaster would be failing to blend.


Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Not failure to blend. But rather a different aspect to training. This "internal stuff" will get you the center, one point, kuzushi, aiki, etc. But once you've gotten good at it, you can apply it to anything you want: BJJ, karate, judo, underwater basket weaving, etc.
My point here is that there is a definite technique to avoiding the sword, quite apart from the waza of taking the sword away from the attacker. I can relate to the idea of uke's being ubalance at the moment he touches you, but a sword will not be unbalanced on contact. If it contacts you, you're dead.

Of course, technique with tanden is entirely different from technique without it. I think the real problem here is that, in transplanting martial arts to the West, it was just simplified, especially in language, but anyone who goes really deep into judo or aikido has to encounter and develop tanden to proceed further.

The problem with that is that it is so profound even at the shallow levels that few people can conceive that it could possibly go even deeper than that. Anyway, I have enjoyed conversing with Dan over time and I find his maerial intriguing. So I want to know more.

Thanks,

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-27-2006, 04:27 PM   #61
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

David,
Nice to see you posting again. I have done judo in the past, and will return to it in a few months after I take care of some other academic matters. I think that the 6 directions training I have done made a big difference--I found that randori was a good labratory to determine how much "stability" my body has. It has been about 6 months since I have done judo, though I've been doing the solo training and kickboxing in the interim.

I completely agree with you that it's about results. I'm curious to see what happens when I restart judo again in another 5 or 6 months.
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Old 10-27-2006, 04:39 PM   #62
David Orange
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote:
David,
Nice to see you posting again.
Tim,

Thanks. I do see judo as a very stable and consistent background against which all kinds of things can be compared and weighed. Pure tanden training is bound to help that and/or aikido/sword, etc. And I think that, more than aikido or other things, judo (or sumo) is a great place to see just how real perceived gains are. It's one thing to feel that you've made vast progress, but getting on a mat with a good judo man can be both humbling and inspirational.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-28-2006, 09:56 AM   #63
Tom H.
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Robert Rumpf wrote:
It just doesn't help the partner dynamic, unless everyone else is on the same page. Being too strong in those skills can complicate learning others.
But these skills (at the level I know them) are very easy to get after you've been show how to train -- it just takes thoughtful, dedicated hard work over time. Why aren't they more common?

It aggravates me that this stuff was not openly taught when I was trying out Aikido or Taiji. It's not impossible-to-understand hard, and it's foundational. Maybe the training was there, maybe I was blind to it. Looking back, a lot of stuff that didn't make sense now makes sense. Maybe I wasn't ready until this April for such an immediately eye-opening experience (as being shown how to generate connective tension from hand to hand across the upper body, which is itself just a foot in the door).

Part of me really wants to return, but I can't walk back into a classroom in as an unranked student who only trains on the side now because it's fun to play with technique and touch other people, then show everyone else what they are missing. Not yet, anyhow

Quote:
Robert Rumpf wrote:
I think with that list that I provided, all of the different areas need to be developed in concert or in sequence, but that becoming too good at any one area makes one too reliant on that as a response.
I suspect that one of the strengths of the kind of training I'm talking about is that it forces you to evaluate your own body and discover what you need to train and where you are weak. That's all inside yourself. Plugging your body into a martial setting (e.g. Aikido, grappling, MMA) is another matter. I'm willing to sacrifice a couple years developing my body (rewiring movement) before trying to do anything with it, and I'm betting that because of the apparent rarity of this kind of training, it will have been worth it.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I think leaving [Aikido], fixing yourself on the inside, and going back to it is difficult also but still the best course. You can then move others and throw and lock but how are you going to get thrown? [...] This training will virtually nullify that play and sort of change your view of Budo forever. It makes cooperation hard to so since your body will not react that way anymore.
But if you're playing with other people who have the same type of body, the interplay would be much more valuable. That may be the answer to the problem that upsets me in my meandering response to Robert.

Tom
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Old 10-28-2006, 10:01 AM   #64
Tom H.
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
The good news is that you can do the majority of the sweat work alone.
The bad news is ... you have to do the majority of the sweat work alone

Tom
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Old 10-28-2006, 10:34 AM   #65
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

QUOTE=Tom Holz]

But if you're playing with other people who have the same type of body, the interplay would be much more valuable. That may be the answer to the problem that upsets me in my meandering response to Robert.

Tom[/quote]

Hi Tom

At a particular point people will realize whats happening inside of them by everyone's reactions around them. If they're doing their bodywork- then the only way they are going to get along is by purposely trying to wreck or at least give up the integrity of their training so they can be locked or thrown. For people that have spent agonizingly long periods alone working on various connections...ya just want to go out and test it, You sure as hell don't want to go out and give it up.
I'm fortunate enough to have a group who trains this way and we keep testing each other. You can still go out to meet other MA'ers. I do. There are also more than enough guys who will take you up on outside training if you ask.You can also go to gyms and ask big guys there to push and pull you or pile drive you. I still do it and now they ask their friends to do it on me so they can watch the reactions. I tell them its yoga, so they don't get wierd. I've had more than few light up and say "Couldn't you use this for fighting?"

Perhaps the greatest curiosity is why- even in the arts that have correct internal training- men don't ever get it. Why? They want so much to be strong, and able, but don't have the mental fortitude and willful discipline to spend hours alone... where there is no glory, no recognition, no acknowledgement of effort. Only the work. I have looked men the eyes when they have failed and said "I don't want to hear it. Don't compliment me-I don't need it. Instead ask your self ...Why.... you say you want it-But you aren't doing the work?"

I have come to believe that although anyone can indeed learn- it takes a certain type of man to harness these abilities. They not only have to see the long road they have to be able to think and put together chains in their bodies. Otherwise you can't build on connections.
We have an exercise where you deal with force from left to right on the opposite "outsides" of your body lines left to right/ right to left while we are free to use the insides to the front and back. I've seen men get the first steps and yet be stymied by the next set in the chain. Without exhaustive private mental training- it just isn't going to come together.
Sweat is a wonderful thing
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-28-2006 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 10-28-2006, 05:36 PM   #66
Tom H.
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
They want so much to be strong, and able, but don't have the mental fortitude and willful discipline to spend hours alone...
That would explain the kung-fu scenes where a skilled outsider charges into a dojo and takes on two dozen students with no effort. Just like the archetype of the old teacher.

I think I'm going to set some arbitrary goals for this winter, just to see if I'm the kind of person that can keep it up. Something like "six days every week: 100 of X, 40 of Y, and 15 of Z".

Tom

Last edited by Tom H. : 10-28-2006 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 10-29-2006, 11:20 AM   #67
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote:
That would explain the kung-fu scenes where a skilled outsider charges into a dojo and takes on two dozen students with no effort. Just like the archetype of the old teacher.

I think I'm going to set some arbitrary goals for this winter, just to see if I'm the kind of person that can keep it up. Something like "six days every week: 100 of X, 40 of Y, and 15 of Z".

Tom
Well I think facing multiple experienced "fighters" is a fools game. Most can't handle even one.

I got your email .I think it will be great fun comparing notes in person finally.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-30-2006, 08:19 AM   #68
shodan 83
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

What I'd like to see here and it would up to Mark or Dan to provide is a narrative of their interaction as it relates to specific skills that Dan imparted to Mark. Either one of you willing or able to provide a narrative of the specific skill sets derived from your meeting, and specific exercises to continue the development of "internal strength"?

Thanks, E
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Old 10-30-2006, 09:56 AM   #69
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hmmm....My version is more expansive then Marks as it was standard shtick for me. In fairness to Mark it is usually quite bit to take in, in just a few hours. Its an information dump with many things being strange, and new.

Sharing how to do it on the web? No, not really. If someone wants to train with me they can come see me. The only person I asked Mark to share some things with was Ron Tilsdale-as he was originally supposed to be the other tester from the debate here. Besides the fact that I like the guy. There really isn't any point in all this other than to let folks know its out there and to search it out. It takes years to get this stuff. I have guys that have been with me for twelve years who no one is going toss anytime soon. But they sure as hell didn't learn it on the internet or through reading about it.

A narrative of what happened in our interaction from my end? I had Mark push me with on hand, then two and really shove. And dropped him here and there.
Then I instantly starting showing him how to do some things and use his will and visualize transfering the horizontal load to the ground. He...got in the way of himself, I showed him again and again till he could feel it and in a way do it right there.. After him feeling it in himself I had him push me again so he could, in a sense feel it in me. Then I showed him how to receive it and rebound it...snip.... lots of attempts...Then he shoved me and I bounced him away.
Then I showed him how to deliver without any movement by touching him.... and lifting and casting him off. that was soft, then I did a no inch punch that knocked him to the ground.
Then a short kick to his thigh...which I don't think he liked all that much.
With these we talked about Connection of the uppper body and how it breaks in most people...snip.... lots of demonstration.
Then I started to sho him about zero balance. How to maintain a center point with someone coming at you from any direction with ground arriving at at various points in the body....snip...I showed him specifically what I was doing on the inside against his pushed and pulls. He noticed that his pushes were in fact casting himself off and that I could feel where his weight was, even what foot he was about to lift. This led to him laughing as I said push me hard and steady, and I started sending my breath to split him, compress him, lift him, and nuetralize his push so he found it hard to push. I used my hands to demonstrate what Iwas doing on the inside. lifting, compressing, splitting etc.
Next I showed him hoe to support load across his back and chest with him pushing on my arm held out to the side (like the jo trick) and my other arm foward. I let him feel the transfer from the side arm to the forward arm and the interplay then to ground and out.
It was then That I said let up the ante and try to lock me, then try to throw me anyway you can think off. Don't say anything just take me down....snip...Mark down....snip...Mark down..... Then I showed him what I was doing. Last I showed showed him the same thing but I would'lnt let him lift this feet. Then how it is done with my version of Arkuzawas push out exercise. The way I do it is I let Mark get in a power stance (hanmi) and put his hands out. I stand feet squared to shoulders, knees locked, amrr locked. Its perfectly ridiculous looking as it is obvious I should go over. Then I had Mark push straight at me through his hands and try to step forward through me.
He couldn't lift his feet. He just stood there.
The rest of the time was me not showing, but having Mark go through individual exercises to understand how the peices work together. Even the common fallacies and mistakes in Hanmi. Which what he was laughing about here. IMO most Hanmi is weak and will not sustain load from a dedicated shove or pile drive. It takes the load in the wrong way. I showed Mark how to stack and leave his joints to compress and expand without transfering the load to his back quad. Then how to "think" of the outside of his legs as separate from the insides and how you can create what I call a base wave. This kept lifting him up
Then more discussion of the pieces at dinner and some basic understanding of how things tie together when you are working at home.
This is standard shtick for me, but it lets someone get a feel.
Again. It isn't about me. What if Mikes better? What if Arkuzawa's better? What if there are a hundred CMAers that are better? It was and is supposed to be about you guys finally believing in... it...., not me or others.
The more you keep letting it be about "people," the less you will believe it can be yours. Let it be about ....you. And then getting iit for yourself. For you to own and work in your art. Get it where you can find it. It is out there in various places and you can use it in what ever manner you choose.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-30-2006 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 10-30-2006, 10:11 AM   #70
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Hear hear! This should be in a "sticky" on this forum. Thanks Dan, every time I read a post like this, I get more confidence.
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Old 10-30-2006, 10:40 AM   #71
shodan 83
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Thanks Dan i appreciate the effort.
E
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Old 10-30-2006, 10:50 AM   #72
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Dan,

Great write up. I agree , from the perspective of a beginner (me) it's about who can demonstrate the best set of exercises or training protocol that I can use to develop skills.

Tim
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:20 PM   #73
Tom H.
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote:
I agree , from the perspective of a beginner (me) it's about who can demonstrate the best set of exercises or training protocol that I can use to develop skills.
Me, too , especially if you've also got the driven discipline to re-build your body. Fortunately for us beginners, there are people who have been openly showing the hows. I've been amazed how far I've been able to run solo with the small amounts that I picked up from Rob a couple months ago. I hope that pattern continues.

(Me "running far" doesn't mean much ... I am probably one of the least martially experienced people trying to do this. But that's my own fault; I sat on my butt for almost a decade after my first exposure to this internal material.)
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Old 10-30-2006, 07:41 PM   #74
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote:
... ... I am probably one of the least martially experienced people trying to do this. But that's my own fault; I sat on my butt for almost a decade after my first exposure to this internal material.)
It doesn't need to be expresssed martially. That's just a choice.

I'd say again that I Postulate that it is the ultimate form of stopping the spears (Budo). The best potential to stop harm against you without cauing it. I believe it was this that allowed Ueshiba's "vision" to match what he learned from Takeda-
"That Takeda opened his eyes to true Budo."

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-30-2006 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 10-30-2006, 11:05 PM   #75
David Orange
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I believe it was this that allowed Ueshiba's "vision" to match what he learned from Takeda-
"That Takeda opened his eyes to true Budo."

Cheers
Dan
Very interesting, Dan. This relates to so many things. Your references to making the "connections" through the body also reminds me very much of Feldenkrais, which is very small, subtle movement that forces the attention down to very small details of how one is using the various parts of his body and how that use causes greater stress or cumulative power. Feldenkrais was a judo teacher in Europe from the 1920s or so. He got his first lesson from Jigoro Kano, in person after having some fighting jujutsu experience. Surely what you're doing also relates directly to "maximum efficient use of effort," wouldn't you say?

Another thing, though: I've been corresponding with Jim Sorrentino and while I said earlier that he "tried to burn you," I don't think now that that's what he was doing. I think he is just very passionate about his art and was passionately defending its reputation. This old internet give us fantastic interconnectivity, but so often,we still don't understand each other and we wind up like those guys tied together at one wrist with a knife in the other hand. I have gotten a much better view of Jim and I have admired the way you've handled yourself through these discussions. I'm looking forward to meeting both of you, whenever, wherever.

Best to all.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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