Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-03-2007, 01:46 AM   #126
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

hey I'm a kiwi, the last thing I want to do is americanize anything! ;-)

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2007, 05:46 AM   #127
Zeb Leonard
Dojo: Grampians Aikido
Location: Ballarat
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 14
Australia
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

hmm, reading through this has lead me to realise that I consider aikido to be more weapons-oriented than a lot of you guys out there. I wonder if this means I am wrong!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2007, 06:03 AM   #128
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
This is where I think one has to tread carefully. A martial art is not just a collection of techniques; there are bits of its culture of origin inextricably bound up in it. They're not separate entities; it's a whole package.

So while it's one thing for teachers to be more accessible, you have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, to be so intent on "Americanizing" it you lose something in the process.
At the same time however, some of the greatest martial arts of this time were made by stepping outside of traditional bounds and stepping on some toes and egos.

Judo, BJJ, aikido. Each one has something very in common. They all broke what would be considered traditional training. Each founder had to prove their art to get it accepted because it was not the norm. BJJ in fact broke away from the Japanese culture almost entirely. The words are gone, the etiquette is mostly gone, the unapproachable teacher is defiantly gone. Yet it survived and possibly has filled a void where it's parent arts have shirked away.

I believe if you truly make the art your own instead of making yourself into the image your art wants you to be, you will go much further. I guess time will tell if I'm right.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2007, 06:46 AM   #129
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

There is the growing sentiment of not wanting the culture of the arts here in the states. Most Americans are more interested in health, exercise and self defense these days, especially with a heighten awareness of patriotism.

Who wants to mimic Japanese culture in today's political climate, perhaps some. The commentary of most martial arts websites reflect the same sentiment of wanting the self defense as the focal point. If you yourself feel more comfortable with Japanese culture and want to indulge, then I have no problem with that. The beauty of living in a free country is having the ability to choose your whims. It's worth the warrant to really analyze very carefully the passion of those in this country and there desire of Aikido from a marital perspective.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2007, 06:46 PM   #130
CNYMike
Dojo: Aikido of Central New York
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,005
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Zeb Leonard wrote: View Post
hmm, reading through this has lead me to realise that I consider aikido to be more weapons-oriented than a lot of you guys out there. I wonder if this means I am wrong!
Not really. I consider Aikido weapon-based, that is the body mechanics of the empty hand techniques all come out of weaponry.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2007, 06:50 PM   #131
CNYMike
Dojo: Aikido of Central New York
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,005
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
At the same time however, some of the greatest martial arts of this time were made by stepping outside of traditional bounds and stepping on some toes and egos.

Judo, BJJ, aikido. Each one has something very in common. They all broke what would be considered traditional training. Each founder had to prove their art to get it accepted because it was not the norm .....
Yet Judo and Aikido are still recognizeably Japanese.

Quote:
BJJ in fact broke away from the Japanese culture almost entirely. The words are gone ......
So I guess they don't call it "juji gatame" anymore?

Quote:
.....I believe if you truly make the art your own instead of making yourself into the image your art wants you to be, you will go much further.
Maybe. That doesn't mean you haven't lost something, though.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2007, 07:03 PM   #132
CNYMike
Dojo: Aikido of Central New York
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,005
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
There is the growing sentiment of not wanting the culture of the arts here in the states. Most Americans are more interested in health, exercise and self defense these days, especially with a heighten awareness of patriotism.
Then my suspicions about Aikidoka leaning to the left (ie unpatriotic) must be correct because the USAF seminars I went to last year were PACKED, and no one was compalining about the cultural side of it. Then again, maybe the sentiment of "not wanting the culture of the arts" is not as widespread as you think.

Quote:
Who wants to mimic Japanese culture in today's political climate, perhaps some. The commentary of most martial arts websites reflect the same sentiment of wanting the self defense as the focal point. If you yourself feel more comfortable with Japanese culture and want to indulge, then I have no problem with that. The beauty of living in a free country is having the ability to choose your whims. It's worth the warrant to really analyze very carefully the passion of those in this country and there desire of Aikido from a marital perspective.
You're right. It is a free country, and anyone who doesn't like going to a culture-laden traditional dojo doesn't have to go there. That's their business. The matial arts community has grown and diversified to the point where there should be something for everybody.

But that doesn't mean there aren't perfectly valid reasons why the cultural aspects are there, not just in Aikido but in othe systems that originate in other parts of the world. But I never had it explained to me until a couple of years ago. I can see why people who never had those explanations might decide to turn their back on it.

And I would hope that even in these more patriotic time, Americans haven't mutated into ethnocentric knuckleheads who want nothing to do with anything that smacks of other cultures. I'd like to think even Patriotic Americans can be more open-minded and inclusive than that. Aren't we supposed to be the melting pot after all?

Then again, maybe there have been mass protests against the Halls commercial set in a Japanes restaurant that I missed; if no one wants to act Japanese they certainly won't want to eat it. But if there's room in our society for Japanese restaurants, there my be room to squeeze in Japanese martial arts that still have their, uh, Japanese-ness. Goes back to that melting pot thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 12:21 AM   #133
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Michael Gallagher,

The strange thing about the USAF, is that on the surface and at the seminars, yes no one complains, accept in Aikido blogs, such as this one or Youtube. It's a known fact among some, of the growing feeling of discontent within the USAF. There are some notable Shihan and definitely at the Shidoin level that would like to see things change, I would rather not call any names, time will tell the true nature.

If you read very carefully the commentary written George Ledyard, “The Future of Aikido”, he clearly gives a glimpse to the growing discontent. He states, “Aikido is an art going through a continuous identity crisis. This can be easily recognized when one pours over the contents of the various discussions in on-line forums. Aikido practitioners can’t seem to decide whether this is supposed to be a fighting style, whether it’s a deep spiritual practice, or if the whole things just a dance-like metaphor for a philosophy of conflict resolution.”

He also states the growing problem among leadership of Aikikai and possibly the acceptance from the Japanese, “Other folks are even more marginalized. Perhaps they have rank recognition through a particular teacher who had enough seniority that the headquarters couldn’t ignore them. Do you think that the same recognition will automatically go to the next generation of seniors in these organizations?”

He also states that American Aikido maybe the result of the discontent, “The one thing that can get things on track again in American Aikido is that when the coming chaos arrives, groups of American students begin to seriously invest in their own American teachers. If American students of the art invest some authority in their own teachers, if small organizations begin to reform around these people, there will be some hope for the future. Small organizations headed by people who actually see the function of their organizations as systematic transmission to its members can spread Aikido to a wider base of folks. If the rank and file of Aikido must insist on results before they truly give their loyalty to a teacher or organization, if they insist that the structure benefit them before they give their all, then things will change.”

American Aikido will be different from Japanese Aikido, much like European Aikido (Real Aikido) is different. The history of all Aikido and the basic concepts are the same. The differences will be with the styles, the focal point of martial arts and removal of culture in most cases and the removal of the Japanese religion. European Aikido has already done this, they have totally removed the culture and religious aspects, I don't blame them. The Europeans are definitely more concern with the martial part of Aikido as oppose to culture and spritual concepts. American Aikidoist having the same desire. The writing is one wall weather we like it or not.

It's best to read the entire commentary to really absorb the information, even though it's long. For those who want to change, we should embrace American Aikido and shape our own destiny much like our western brethren in Europe have done. Europe has had a phenomenal success with there European Aikido (Real Aikido). American Aikido can do the same if we can be untied from our mental shackles.

Last edited by salim : 04-04-2007 at 12:26 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 01:33 AM   #134
Dieter Haffner
 
Dieter Haffner's Avatar
Dojo: Tai Wa Lokeren, Budokai Mechelen
Location: Lokeren
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 114
Belgium
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
American Aikido will be different from Japanese Aikido, much like European Aikido (Real Aikido) is different. The history of all Aikido and the basic concepts are the same. The differences will be with the styles, the focal point of martial arts and removal of culture in most cases and the removal of the Japanese religion. European Aikido has already done this, they have totally removed the culture and religious aspects, I don't blame them. The Europeans are definitely more concern with the martial part of Aikido as oppose to culture and spritual concepts. American Aikidoist having the same desire. The writing is one wall weather we like it or not.

It's best to read the entire commentary to really absorb the information, even though it's long. For those who want to change, we should embrace American Aikido and shape our own destiny much like our western brethren in Europe have done. Europe has had a phenomenal success with there European Aikido (Real Aikido). American Aikido can do the same if we can be untied from our mental shackles.
I pressume you are talking about the Real Aikido invented by Serbian Ljubomir Vračarević.

If so, can you tell me why you call this European aikido and not 'yet another aikido style'?
Because it appearse that you are saying that a lot of Europeans are practising this style. From my own experience this seems not to be the case.
Most people in Western Europe practise one of the Japanese styles. With Japanese shihans that are still highly appreciated in the Aikido community.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 05:56 AM   #135
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
Y

So I guess they don't call it "juji gatame" anymore?

Maybe. That doesn't mean you haven't lost something, though.
We don't bow, we don't use japanese, we don't talk about culture, we don't call the instructor sensei, etc.

It makes you feel free. I feel at ease in my bjj club. In my aikido club I feel on edge, always trying to remember "Do I bow now?", "Is it once or twice here?", "Is it considered rude not in america but in ancient japan to do this?", "Remember, it's X off the mat and sempei on the mat..", etc.

In bjj my instructor is called Wally, I can leave the mat anytime I wish, enter it anytime I wish, I can ask questions without any fear of offense in a culture that I do not understand (That neither me nor my teacher are a part of), and I am free to innovate without the "That's not Judo!". Not to mention the stuff that is not related to culture that I always seen to find in japanese arts like hero worship (You are never going to do it as good as sensei's teacher). I'm glad my judo class is ran the same way as my bjj class. It's nice to just train and not worry about all the stuff that doesn't interest me. In fact, we are getting ready for our next belt tests and it's time to stop teach the lingo, when to bow, etc again so we can fake our way thought the culture.

In my judo class, I show up, change walk on the mat, do my warm ups (or join a group warm up), grab a human or any rank who might be around (without fear of offense), do my fit-ins, if I need help I can just ask or call out "Hey John, when you get a minute, can you come fix my throw?", when he is done I say "Sweet, thanks!", after that we head over to a crash mat, work throws as hard as we can in a throw line, then near the end of the 2 hour period we stop clear the mat and do randori. I can ask anyone to go without fear of offense by "challenging" a higher belt. During this time the instructor walks around the class correcting technique, answering questions, etc. Every so often he stops us and demo's a technique he wants us to focus on. If I do not want to partake in his class, I'm free to grab a partner and find an out of the way spot and do whatever as long as I'm not in there way.

I find this far more useful to me. I can relax and be myself, something I am unable to do in more traditional environments. I think this is the greatest asset of the club I train at.

I'm not saying you should throw it all out every time. I'm just saying sometimes you can gain more then you loose. Every case is different.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 09:19 AM   #136
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Dieter Haffner,

Real Aikido is more dominate in eastern Europe. The term American Aikido and European Aikido is used more or less to describe the different areas of the world that we are located in and how Aikido is changing in our parts of the world.

Aikido will change according to our geographical, societal needs. This trend is already beginning to happen here in the US. It has already happen in Europe, Western Europe to a lessor degree. This dose not mean we will not see those who will try to hold onto the Japanese way. It just means that we will see the branches on the tree grow in different directions. Here in the states we have some American Shihan. Please read the commentary from George Ledyard, “ The Future of Aikido”, http://www.aikidojournal.com/index.php?id=3077.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 11:42 AM   #137
Talon
 
Talon's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Zenshin Dojo
Location: Edmonton
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 187
Canada
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

I'd say this discussion deserves its own thread or perhaps it can go into the Future of Aikido threads. It obviously has drifted severely from the original thread...

Just a suggestion...

Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 12:25 PM   #138
Tim Fong
 
Tim Fong's Avatar
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: California
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 181
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Don,

Good post. The thing that I don't get is why Americans voluntarily put themselves in second place. Why accept that you are always the "under" person who can never change an art? Why?

Japanese martial arts have been pretty shameless about adopting things from other cultures. There's nothing wrong with that either-- they took things from China, put their own spin on it, tested the arts under live conditions, and made changes. Why is it that Americans (or Europeans, or New Zealanders, and so on) are denied that same right? Or rather, why is it that so many are eager to _deny themselves_ what the ancestors of their own arts in Japan did?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2007, 11:57 PM   #139
CNYMike
Dojo: Aikido of Central New York
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,005
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I feel at ease in my bjj club. In my aikido club I feel on edge, always trying to remember "Do I bow now?", "Is it once or twice here?", "Is it considered rude not in america but in ancient japan to do this?", "Remember, it's X off the mat and sempei on the mat..", etc.
How long have you been going? How often do you go? One would think that if you went regualarly, you'd have the rules down pat and it wouln't be a struggle to remember. It's not like they're going to change them every time!

I've had similar rules in almost every MA class I've been in, with the exceptions of European Fencing an Western Boxing; but even then, it wasn't a big deal that there were no such rules.

To each his own; if it really distresses you, that's your problem. But it never bugged me one way or another.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 12:01 AM   #140
CNYMike
Dojo: Aikido of Central New York
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,005
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Dieter Haffner wrote: View Post
I pressume you are talking about the Real Aikido invented by Serbian Ljubomir Vračarević.

If so, can you tell me why you call this European aikido and not 'yet another aikido style'?
Because it appearse that you are saying that a lot of Europeans are practising this style. From my own experience this seems not to be the case.
Most people in Western Europe practise one of the Japanese styles. With Japanese shihans that are still highly appreciated in the Aikido community.
Not to mention that there's a huge seminar in Italy every summer undera Japanese Shihan. I'd be surprised if a lot of Europeans didn't go to that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 12:04 AM   #141
CNYMike
Dojo: Aikido of Central New York
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,005
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
.... American Aikido will be different from Japanese Aikido .....
I suppose. I just hope we don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Quote:
....The differences will be with the styles, the focal point of martial arts and removal of culture in most cases and the removal of the Japanese religion
'Course, if that's where Aikido goes to town, is removing that stuff really a good idea?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 05:35 AM   #142
CarlRylander
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 129
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

I've been thinking about studying Aikido for some years now. and I've had my doubts too.

Aikido must be some use! I mean, they teach it to policemen.
It's a good way of immobilising someone when you're not allowed to hit them or hurt them.

That Robert Lara Sensei, he's very inspirational! He teaches a 'harder' style.

On his website on You Tube, he teaches how to deal with hook punches and attacks form behind.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 08:01 AM   #143
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
How long have you been going? How often do you go? One would think that if you went regualarly, you'd have the rules down pat and it wouln't be a struggle to remember. It's not like they're going to change them every time!

I've had similar rules in almost every MA class I've been in, with the exceptions of European Fencing an Western Boxing; but even then, it wasn't a big deal that there were no such rules.

To each his own; if it really distresses you, that's your problem. But it never bugged me one way or another.
I've been training in martial arts sense childhood. I've always had problems with these rules. Really its because I think they are silly and pointless. I've never been into the Asian culture. Not to mention the rules change based on the instructor. In fact my aikido instructor and my old judo instructor have different rules on which foot you put down first to sit. Why does it freaking matter?? Each has a reason why but both are equally pointless, I just want to sit down.

My old judo instructor had a guest out. This man was very upset that I did not sit in sezia while he was there. I was disrespectful to him. Of course I have been unable to sit in sezia because I broke my ankle when I started judo. Its been a long time and just now I can sit in sezia for a few minutes before my ankle screams at me. Yet how I sat down apparently was disrespectful to some overweight american.

Last edited by DonMagee : 04-05-2007 at 08:04 AM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 02:46 PM   #144
mriehle
 
mriehle's Avatar
Dojo: New School Aikido
Location: Stockton, CA
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 320
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
In fact my aikido instructor and my old judo instructor have different rules on which foot you put down first to sit.


So, my current Aikido instructor likes to say he keeps as many of the Japanese rules as makes sense. Of course, he defines what makes sense and I don't always agree with him ('sokay, I make the rules in my dojo, I follow his in his).

But I know that one of his reasons for keeping a level of formality is because of safety.

Aikido is not supposed to be dangerous, but it can be. Moreover we get all kinds of interesting people in the dojo, some of whom are not quick on the uptake when things get hairy.

So, some of the rules (e.g., roll from the inside of the mat to the outside to avoid collisions) are purely about safety and obvious. Some of them are about maiintaining a level of formality that prevents misunderstandings when working with people of different levels, because such misunderstandings get people hurt. The latter set of rules are going to be arbitrary by their nature and why not use the Japanese ones?

That being said, there are a couple of lines here that shouldn't be crossed, IMO. Going one way we get too casual and accidents happen. Going the other the formality just gets silly. Which foot goes down first when sitting down crosses that latter line, IMO. But it's important to note that it's my opinion and the only say I have is whether I'll train in that environment or not.

The other reason for formality, IME, is to maintain an environment in the class where everyone can learn. I've seen classes where things were very casual and there wasn't much learning going on.

You know, and, I don't recall any teacher in any worthwhile endeavor I've engaged in who didn't have some pointless little exercise that he wanted me to do because it once helped him and I completely failed to get anything out of it. It was absolutely worthless to me. But at some point I realized it was worth going through the motions with these so I could get on with the good stuff.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 05:02 PM   #145
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Michael Riehle wrote: View Post


So, my current Aikido instructor likes to say he keeps as many of the Japanese rules as makes sense. Of course, he defines what makes sense and I don't always agree with him ('sokay, I make the rules in my dojo, I follow his in his).

But I know that one of his reasons for keeping a level of formality is because of safety.

Aikido is not supposed to be dangerous, but it can be. Moreover we get all kinds of interesting people in the dojo, some of whom are not quick on the uptake when things get hairy.

So, some of the rules (e.g., roll from the inside of the mat to the outside to avoid collisions) are purely about safety and obvious. Some of them are about maiintaining a level of formality that prevents misunderstandings when working with people of different levels, because such misunderstandings get people hurt. The latter set of rules are going to be arbitrary by their nature and why not use the Japanese ones?

That being said, there are a couple of lines here that shouldn't be crossed, IMO. Going one way we get too casual and accidents happen. Going the other the formality just gets silly. Which foot goes down first when sitting down crosses that latter line, IMO. But it's important to note that it's my opinion and the only say I have is whether I'll train in that environment or not.

The other reason for formality, IME, is to maintain an environment in the class where everyone can learn. I've seen classes where things were very casual and there wasn't much learning going on.

You know, and, I don't recall any teacher in any worthwhile endeavor I've engaged in who didn't have some pointless little exercise that he wanted me to do because it once helped him and I completely failed to get anything out of it. It was absolutely worthless to me. But at some point I realized it was worth going through the motions with these so I could get on with the good stuff.
I agree you need rules for safety. We have rules like that. No leg locks for white belts, no neck cranks for white belts, no heel hooks until given the ok by the instructor. No throwing new guys until they have been oked on breakfalls, etc.

As for preventing misunderstandings, I'm a little torn on that. In my bjj and current judo club, our rule is simply it is up to the higher belt to protect his grappling dummy. I know better then to throw on an advanced lock on a new guy because he might not know what is happening and tap in time. I know to let go of locks if the guy is not tapping and is about to be hurt. I also know that if that guy is higher rank then me that I can go all out and it is his responsibility to tap in time. We also have common respect for each other and shy away from malicious things. The only people I see injured is when two inexperienced white belts get put together and decide it's a tough man contest, or when freak uncontrollable accidents happen like when I got dropped in a body weight exercise( pull guard and your partner sprints across the mat) and sprained my stomach. I am hard pressed to think of any spoken rules that I could see are used to prevent misunderstandings. However, i'm sure whatever those rules are, they are probably useful for that school.

I've always found the rules about bowing before and after each technique, what leg to step on the mat with, never asking a high rank to spar, always bowing after getting advice, the requirement the whole class stop when the instructor speaks to correct one person (my old judo instructor), bowing to every black belt when you get on the mat or off the mat, etc. To be silly and have no place in what I'm doing. I can understand learning the language, in fact I used to be against learning japanese names until I trained with a guy who spoke poor english. I was able to communicate the drills to him with judo terms. However, half my judo class had no idea what we were actually saying when we bowed out of class. In fact some people thought we were saying completely different words like "keska! Pray!".

And that takes us into the whole is a martial art it's culture debate. Which is the topic of another thread.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2007, 07:33 PM   #146
CNYMike
Dojo: Aikido of Central New York
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,005
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I've been training in martial arts sense childhood .....
Actually, I was asking how long you've specifically been doing Aikido.

Quote:
I've always had problems with these rules. Really its because I think they are silly and pointless .....
They're not. Is being polite silly an pointless? No of course not. All those rules are are an expression of that. But most of the time the rules are put out there without explaining how the cultural part of the art is just as important as the technical part.

However, you give the impression that you're getting seriously stressed about this every time you go to Aikido class. If that's the case, why go? You learn better if you're not under a lot of pressure; conversely, if you're stressed, you won't learn anything. So if you can't take it in stride and enjoy yourself, maybe you should stick to the clubs without cultural/ettiquette rules and stay away from anything else. You're not doing yourself any favors; you're just putting yourself through hell and getting little out of it. Food or thought.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2007, 07:58 AM   #147
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Don Magee,

I would strongly suggest that you search for an Aikido dojo that is not culturally based. The Aikido dojo that I go to is located in North Carolina. We have abandoned the religious and cultural aspects from the art completely. We don't have any pictures of the founder in the dojo. We certainly respect the founder profoundly, but there is no need for such things to have an effective Aikido school. Our dojo is simply good quality mats and a few practice weapons.

There is no prostrating, sitting on the correct foot protocol. We just use good professional common politeness. Our dojo is mixture of very well educated Aikidoist, with daytime professional jobs. We are only interested in good health, exercise, self defense and the genuine love for all martial arts. Our instructor is 4 degree black belt. He's been in the arts for over 25 years, and the benefit from learning is profound. Our instructor goes to great strides to insure that we learn the martial part of the art correctly. I disagree with those who say that you can't learn the art without the culture and religion. It can be done and it's being done everyday.

I would advise to keep searching for the Aikido dojo that fits your needs and learn what's beneficial for you. Don't allow others to dictate your needs and tell you that you can't do this or that. Be very careful of the cult mentality among some Aikidoist. The pervasive business minded, cult culture of the art has really hampered the effectiveness of the martial part of Aikido. Aikido is not a business as some have made it into, giving out belts like a kid in a candy store. Some people don't like it and it's stepping on some toe's, but the truth be told the art has a bad reputation as a result of the cult following. People think that the Aikidoist are a bunch of hippy long hair, get high, love the world, want to be Japanese, and that's ashame. The martial part of the art is really amazing once you learn how to apply it effectively.

Last edited by salim : 04-06-2007 at 08:03 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2007, 10:52 AM   #148
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote: View Post
Actually, I was asking how long you've specifically been doing Aikido.

They're not. Is being polite silly an pointless? No of course not. All those rules are are an expression of that. But most of the time the rules are put out there without explaining how the cultural part of the art is just as important as the technical part.

However, you give the impression that you're getting seriously stressed about this every time you go to Aikido class. If that's the case, why go? You learn better if you're not under a lot of pressure; conversely, if you're stressed, you won't learn anything. So if you can't take it in stride and enjoy yourself, maybe you should stick to the clubs without cultural/ettiquette rules and stay away from anything else. You're not doing yourself any favors; you're just putting yourself through hell and getting little out of it. Food or thought.
I'm going on three years in aikido, with only a year of serious exclusive practice 3 times a week, then about 6 months of semi serious practice 2 times a week, and sense then practice one time a week, recently practice twice, maybe three times a month. Obviously the change in practice habits is due to other things becoming the focus of my training (bjj/judo/mma).

I do not mean to give the impression that my aikido teacher is stringent. He is fairly relaxed in his approach to culture. He will tell you the proper way, and with the exceptions of bowing, what foot you step on the mat with first, asking permission to leave the mat, and counting, he basically will not stress the rules. He does not require we sit in sezia, he does not require seated bowing, etc. However he gives people who do the extra stuff a lot of credit, so basically everyone does and it makes me feel an outsider because I care not to.

However my old judo instructor (not my current one) is a stricker for procedure. He would point out every little thing you did that was 'improper'. It drove me up a wall. I'd spend more time with the culture then I did with the throws. I'd basically just leave frustrated that I had to do all this crap that didn't have anything to do with my ability to throw someone on their head, and none of this improved this ability either. It just wasted everyone's time.

Here's a good story about my old judo instructor. When I first started training judo I was getting a lot of minor injurys. I knew this was because their warmup was weak, didn't stretch you well, didn't create a sweat, and just did some things bad (like cold stretches). I approached the teacher about this and was told this is how he did it for 50 years, screw modern medical science on the proper ways to warm up and prevent injury, this is culture. (Later after going to other judo clubs, I found out apparently that none of them warm up like this guy did, but warm up properly). After prodding he said that if I felt I needed additional time to warm up, I could do so on my own time. So I started getting there 10 minutes sooner so I could warm up, then do their silly warmups. One day I was late, I made it on time but not soon enough to do my own private warm ups. So after he got done 'warming' us up, I continued to warm up while the talked about how his day was at work, and how 'he's really going to work us hard tonight, and his usually stuff that he repeats every class. I am in the back of the group doing stretches when I hear him say "You see Don back there, if he doesn't stop I'm going to kick him out of my class.", So I stop. Think to myself "When does he want me to warm up?" And sit in sezia like a good student. He then starts a throw line. I ask if I can warm up now. He tells me now is not appropriate because class has already started. I need to do this on my own time. I politely say ok and go sit on the edge of the mat in sezia. He then asks if I am injured. I tell him no, I am not going to get in a throw line when I am not properly stretched because I do not want to get injured. He now tells me I am being disrespectful and if this was his instructor blah blah..." I get up and left his club.

You see his americanized notion of Japanese culture (regardless of if it was right or wrong) cost him not just me, but all the students who stopped going because I was no longer going. I'll I asked was to simply be allowed to either warm the class up, or warm up by myself until I was ready to work out and not get injured. I was sick of all the injurys I got in his class that I never got in bjj, aikido, or mma sparing because I was properly warmed up. Rather then allow this 'breach of protocol' he decided that this tradition of sensei knows best, always listen to sensei even if it means sprains, and broken limbs. His notion of culture holds back his students. In fact most of his adult students are sub par compared to the guys I train with today. However his children students (who he doesn't hold to this idiotic standard) are very good competitors.

See I feel there are 3 components to most martial arts. There is technique, culture, and philosophy. Technique and Philosophy go hand in hand. You need both of these. The technique tells you what to do, the philosophy tells you how and when to do it. The culture however I do not feel is nearly as important, at least not for developing skill. It can be neat for people actually interested in cultures. I have however found most American ideas of how the Japaneses do it to be incorrect. If I want culture, there are much better ways to get it. I have courses at the college on language and art, etc. Why choose to learn it from a guy who has no formal training on speaking the language, can't read the language, and has never even been to the country? Not to mention everything he learned is from a guy who again is just the same. It's like learning math from a 5 year old who learned it from a 7 year old who probably learned it from a 8 year old who maybe was taught by a math teacher.

But you guys are right, I did find clubs that train martial arts the way I want to learn them, and I am happy. I currently train in aikido now only because I am friends with the students and instructor and it is fun to hang out with them and learn from them. I think they understand that I am not a serious student and they treat me as such. I do my best to remember all the procedures, and they do their best to let it roll off them when I forget one. I give them an outside viewpoint and they show me new ideas to play with in bjj. Rather then spend all his time correcting me, he spends more time correcting his serious students, and maybe tosses a pointer or two at me, letting anyone who cares to correct my form. Then we all go out to breakfast and have a good time. I'm happy with this arrangement and we have an understanding that I will never receive rank in aikido. However, if I did decide to become a serious student of aikido, his club would be the only choice as it is the only aikido within 100 miles. And because I respect the teacher's skill and consider him a personal friend, I couldn't think of anywhere I'd want t olearn aikido. And that is respect right there. Not bowing every time he says relax more, but treating him like a friend, allowing each other to be different and understanding that it is not threatening to either of us, but that we are following different roads, and forming a relationship not bound by awe or fear, but by healthy openness and common decency.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2007, 10:17 PM   #149
CNYMike
Dojo: Aikido of Central New York
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,005
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
..... Here's a good story about my old judo instructor ..... <snip>
Well, I've had six instructors in Japanese systems over the past 22 years, and I guess I've been lucky in that nothing like that ever happened to me. Then again, I don't know his side of the story.

Quote:
..... See I feel there are 3 components to most martial arts. There is technique, culture, and philosophy. Technique and Philosophy go hand in hand. You need both of these. The technique tells you what to do, the philosophy tells you how and when to do it. The culture however I do not feel is nearly as important, at least not for developing skill .....
I disagree; it's important because you know where the art is coming from. According to Dan Inosanto, a martial art is really a snapshot of the thinking of its founder when he (or she) created it. (In Aikido it's not undistorted from O Sensei to us because there is wiggle room, but you get the idea.) To know what's going on, you need to know where that person is coming from, and the cultural part is part of that. Without the cultural part -- even if it's minimized -- you've got a tripod with two legs.

Quote:
..... I have however found most American ideas of how the Japaneses do it to be incorrect ....
Maybe. But the American rejection of it isn't any better IMHO. Like I said, I find it weird that it's ok to eat food from other parts of the world, but a martial art from the same country has to be stripped of its foreign ideas. What's that about?

Quote:
..... I do my best to remember all the procedures, and they do their best to let it roll off them when I forget one ....
Why not get a little notebook and write things down? Especially as you don't go very often. You may not be a "serious student," but it's nota bas idea to jot things down especially if you have trouble remembering.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2007, 10:30 PM   #150
CNYMike
Dojo: Aikido of Central New York
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,005
United_States
Offline
Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
.... There is no prostrating, sitting on the correct foot protocol. We just use good professional common politeness. Our dojo is mixture of very well educated Aikidoist, with daytime professional jobs. We are only interested in good health, exercise, self defense and the genuine love for all martial arts. Our instructor is 4 degree black belt. He's been in the arts for over 25 years, and the benefit from learning is profound. Our instructor goes to great strides to insure that we learn the martial part of the art correctly. I disagree with those who say that you can't learn the art without the culture and religion. It can be done and it's being done everyday.
Readin this I remembered the times Erik Paulson came to my home town a couple of times in the '90s. I sat in on one workshop one time, and the class began and ended with everyone sitting in Seiza and bowing. Yes, they were all wearing t-shirts and sweats. No, I don't think they bowed a lot during the class proper. But I've always heard Sensei Erik referred to that way, although you could get away with adressing him as "Sir." (But Sif Kevin Seaman would insist on either; no way he'd let you say, "Hey, Erik!")

So when people advocate stripping out the religion, courtesies, and cultural aspects, I think of the groups I know on the non-traditional side of the fence that haven't thrown that stuff out completely. They may not be as stringent as some "traditional" teachers would be, but that they haven't tossed it completely tells me it may not be worthless after all.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
About getting discouraged Mike Hamer Training 14 07-07-2006 06:32 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:59 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate