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Old 07-22-2018, 09:58 PM   #51
RonRagusa
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Re: Ai-nuke

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
By all of the texts and threads that I've read on the subject of aiki, no it won't come by itself.
Peter never said "it will come by itself". He states clearly that Aiki can be the result of dedicated training in Aikido if it's practiced "as Misogi, as tanren and as Shugyo, with an open mind." Attaining a unified mind and body is not exclusive to any single art or practice. There are many paths to achieve Aiki. What you have read here on AikiWeb regarding Aiki has been mostly promotional material for a single training methodology and unsubstantiated arguments that internal training is no longer a part of the Aikido syllabus.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
It takes certain practices to achieve it and even with constant all day training results may vary.
Yes, it does but the training practices are many and varied. Of course results will vary. That's a given.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Everybody says it takes a looooong time.
While a rudimentary experience of Aiki can be realized in a very short time, degrees of mastery will generally take many years to achieve.

Ron

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Old 07-23-2018, 06:22 AM   #52
oisinbourke
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Re: Ai-nuke

Quote:
Peter Kelly wrote: View Post
When students and teachers of Aikido chase a teacher and student of Daito Ryu and Aiki around the world to restore something to their Aikido, perhaps the methods and mindsets of those teachers need to be looked at.
After all these decades of training, I don't even mind if I am crap at Aikido, I just don't want to be crap at being a human.......
Just a general note on this: Any aikido practcioner who wants to join up or study Daito Ryu to strip mine it to "power up" their aikido just shouldn't bother. It's disrepectful of the tradition at best and actually unethical at worse.

Aikido in general doesn't have a great image in terms of its practicioners going to other traditional arts and taking stuff just to improve/market their aikido. I think there's at least one koryu that simply won't accept aikido practicioners because they got fed up with being ripped off.
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:50 AM   #53
MrIggy
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Re: Ai-nuke

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Peter never said "it will come by itself". He states clearly that Aiki can be the result of dedicated training in Aikido if it's practiced "as Misogi, as tanren and as Shugyo, with an open mind." Attaining a unified mind and body is not exclusive to any single art or practice. There are many paths to achieve Aiki. What you have read here on AikiWeb regarding Aiki has been mostly promotional material for a single training methodology and unsubstantiated arguments that internal training is no longer a part of the Aikido syllabus.
"then perhaps this Aiki would come to you without chasing it"

When I said by itself I was referring to this part. Despite doing all of the more-less standard Aikido training it seems that you still have to chase aiki in other words you have to perform specific types of training to attain it.

Quote:
While a rudimentary experience of Aiki can be realized in a very short time, degrees of mastery will generally take many years to achieve.
"rudimentary experience of Aiki can be realized" - What does this exactly mean?
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Old 07-23-2018, 08:46 AM   #54
RonRagusa
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Re: Ai-nuke

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
"rudimentary experience of Aiki can be realized" - What does this exactly mean?
After a short period of training you will be able to experience the feeling of having a coordinated mind and body. You will be able to more easily handle stress testing without resorting to "muscle on muscle" resistance and you will feel yourself moving differently from how you move in everyday life.

Ron

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Old 07-23-2018, 10:03 AM   #55
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: Ai-nuke

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I'm still having the difficulty with the cognitive dissonance of you, who has never met Morihei Ueshiba, telling us what he "intended" while at the same time complaining about others who have never met Morihei Ueshiba discussing him.

In any case, I'm not sure what your point is here. That Aiki doesn't make you a fighter? Sure, that's something that Dan's said for years, in public forums - you can dig it up with Google if you like. Having Aiki doesn't make you a fighter or a boxer, or a wrestler or a swordsman, or whatever. It can help with all of those things, certainly, but those are still specific skill sets that have to be learned, what's your point?

Best,

Chris
Hello Peter,
this is only to say that I second the comments Chris made in this thread and that I share his concerns.

I wonder if after hands-on with real Aiki you would have started this thread at all....

Best,
Bernd
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Old 07-23-2018, 10:36 AM   #56
jonreading
 
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Re: Ai-nuke

Okay, I am getting lost...

First, the curriculum of aikido has changed from the original instruction provided by Ueshiba. I think the interest I have in this aspect is whether a current curriculum of instruction exists that produces a measure of skill similar to what we believe Aikido means to us. For me, I align my aikido with what I perceive the founder and many of the earlier students were able to perform. It has been my experience that this aikido is not found in any system, but rather limited to individual instructors. In this thread, who are we elevating for conversation? Tada Shihan? Maruyama Sensei? Shioda shihan? Why?

Second, whether or not "spiritual instruction" can directly influence success in physical aikido; by extension, whether spiritual instruction can positively influence success in personal health. My observation here is that when lacking the physical training and conditioning, spiritual training is not sufficient substitute to produce the aikido I am seeking. Although taken separately, I think spiritual participation (such as in religion) can have a positive effect on one's life and generally have no reason to believe a philosophical perspective does not hold similar positive influence. For example, I am Christian and believe that my spiritual participation helps to make me a better person.

I think we are meandering in our conversation and I am disappointed in seeing Dan's name appear. Dan is no longer a member of this forum. I think it is more productive to remain focused on the participants and members of the aikido community. That there is such a small number of people in aikido who are active, open, and willing to demonstrate what they teach is maybe more illustrative of the state of things in our training. That one resource for obtaining aiki can be described as a prejudiced dojo refusing to teach foreigners (or the desire to be part of an exclusive dojo that would hold that perspective) is unsettling. In my previous post I referred to our inability to change ourselves as part of our training, thus not elevating to where we can influence change in others. I think we are advocates for the individual who inspires that change in our training. I give coffee mugs to those people who define my training. Seriously - it says "I taught a seminar at Aikido South and all I got is this lousy coffee mug." Maybe the better direction is elevating those people in aikido who represent aiki skills and training and putting hands on them.

I like advocacy. This thread has the opportunity to elevate instructors who are open, honest, and embracing of people seeking to change the way they train. If you believe one component of training outweighs the other, advocate for it. Present the opportunity to change my mind.

I want to make two cautionary comments:
1. Moral superiority is a slippery slope - I think there are plenty of good people who can't fight and plenty of people who can fight who aren't good.
2. Aiki is not aikido. I think anyone with experience here is going to understand that the body conditioning of aiki and the application of technique using aiki are related, but separate, topics. Also, Aiki(tm) is not a possession or, or unique to, aikido.

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Old 07-23-2018, 11:24 AM   #57
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ai-nuke

Quote:
Peter Kelly wrote: View Post
The point Chris is after all we are studying Aikido. Perhaps the focus should be on the art, the techniques rather than anything else. You have incorrect assumed I have no idea what Dan is teaching. I don’t reject it, at all. What I take Umbridge with is people who I knows Aikido technique is incorrect trying to fix it through Aiki, then making comment on public forums. Make your Aikido the focus, perhaps Aiki can be found just in studying the way the founder asked. Perhaps Aiki can be found in training in the Misogi pratctuce the founder presented. Perhaps people should not get caught up in their own self importance, political aspirations or dogmatic approach to learning Aikido that they blinded themselves from understanding the Aikido that the founder and his better students propagated.
I haven’t come to these conclusions without experience.
When students and teachers of Aikido chase a teacher and student of Daito Ryu and Aiki around the world to restore something to their Aikido, perhaps the methods and mindsets of those teachers need to be looked at.
We disregard the Japanese tradition that brought Aikido to us.
I fear the day that Aiki replaces the need for effective Aikido technique, and the only place it is represented as effective is as a party trick in a Dojo to show absorption, spirals immovable body and so on. I have experience in this within the ki society, where the party trick of ki testing had become disregarded entirely within the functionality of technique, where people that were able to show great and impressive skill in having an immovable body during ki testing would be knocked over by a stiff breeze while executing technique. I have spent over half a decade now trying to fix this issue in my own organisation, and fear the same within the context of Aiki.
And there are other unmentioned issues, such as how the brain reacts under duress in a highly volatile situation, and how the “deer in the headlights” syndrome will effect many of the students now studying Aiki(and Aikido in general for that matter) when faced in a volatile and high stress environment.
I am not attacking your method, just asking perhaps for a more wholistic approach to the method, to rediscover the founders Aiki means pressure testing such Aiki, just like he and his students did when they turned away no challenger, until then it’s just another Dojo trick.
You know what, perhaps I have it wrong, and that’s ok too. Perhaps your Aiki will stand the test, perhaps you are building mentally tough martial giants, who knows, only time will tell. But the question needed to be asked, the dialogue has been almost scripted and expected.
After all these decades of training, I don’t even mind if I am crap at Aikido, I just don’t want to be crap at being a human.......
Ah...so the original article wasn't really an investigation of history, but a disagreement over training methods? My focus (I can't speak for anybody else) is entirely on Aikido. But there's a difficulty in that folks have disagreements about what that consists of and how it ought to be trained. That's not unusual, every single one of Morihei Ueshiba's students faced that difficulty, and not one of them duplicated his training exactly in every detail.

Perhaps it would be better just to talk about training methods then to try to bring in personalities or scoff (and giggle and laugh - your words) at folks for doing....just exactly what you are doing in interpreting Morihei Ueshiba.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-23-2018, 02:20 PM   #58
mushinaiki
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Re: Ai-nuke

You are right also Chris, as you keep bringing up on repeat, I never knew the founder, perhaps I wrote it this way to illicite such a response. That just maybe you can now see what you do and say in the same light, as just another person that can’t possibly know the founders intention, even though you also push your agenda. It’s annoying when people do such things isn’t it? Anyway, now to why am I doing or saying these things…

I am doing it out of a request by my Sensei, who was a student of the founder for 13 years. A request to not let the founders message die, as he believes it almost has. I have spent considerable time living and travelling with him, and have been given an international responsibility within my organisation.

Sensei said this about me, and it can be found posted on our international website “Peter is the man I trust most in the world. His aikido techniques are of an equivalent level to mine, and even more than that, you could even say that he is me - Koretoshi Maruyama. That is not to say that he imitates me, but rather, he understands me at the deepest spiritual level. When I first met Peter at a seminar in 2002, we instantly understood each other, and now we have reached the point where we don’t even need words. I think this is the connection inherent in true aikido. I am forever grateful for the blessing from heaven that brought us together.”

It is because of this reason I write these things, I wrote the first post just after spending two weeks living with him in Europe. Has a student of the founder - one that travelled with him, lived with him and sat at his deathbed ever said such things about you? Or empowered you on their behalf to speak regarding O’Sensei’s message? I am not doing it out of ego, rather out of a sense of responsibility. I have lived for many years at the very edge of the world to avoid this situation. I speak because I have been asked to speak, when I feel the duty to my teacher done, I will gladly go away. Many things in Aikido history are speculated on, when Sensei leaves this world I will share more, especially regarding the time of friction between Tohei and the Aikikai, until then, train in Aikido.

When I travel the world to teach on his behalf, I get asked questions regarding Aiki, amongst other things, as the world becomes smaller due to the internet supplying people with an overload of information, it’s my opinion people should focus on the basics of Aikido, and getting them right. But in this modern age of entitlement, any quicker way to get to perceived prowess is accepted. Sensei sees it as my responsibility as his representative to see the world receives a different message, that people understand what Tao means and what it’s supposed to mean to follow it. That you should follow a teacher with all your heart, that Misogi and tanren were the founders message, that through a deep study of Aikido, the founders Aikido, whatever you think you seek outside of traditional Aikido can be reached by looking inside it.

There have been many unsubstantiated derogatory claims made regarding the current state of Aiki, and what people do or do not in regards to it, or the current elements of IP being absent from Aikido. This is just a gross overgeneralization. Some people have trained their asses off too, some can just pick up a book, say, “The principles of effortless power” by Peter Ralston, and have realisations regarding the state of their internal matrix without ever needing to be indoctrinated at the shrine of IP. Who knows the state or ability of another? I can only comment on the people I know, and the experience I have had, and I wish these guys focused just as much time and money on the Aikido side of their development as they do on the Aiki side, because after years now of travelling to do this, they can still be punched in the face while executing simple waza…...

For every argument you can come up with to defend your position, every quote to say what Ueshiba did and what Takeda did were the same, another quote to counter it can be found. For every complex analysis of the founders work that supports IP, another well articulated argument for a different process can be reached. ( for those that haven’t seen this take a look at this well presented case...http://www.aikidotakemusu.org/en/rubriques/163 ).
I just present another argument that people should train until they find their own Aikido, and not to look so intently at just what you are doing to the detriment of the larger picture. Shugyo, Misogi Harai, tanren and an open mind devoid of attachment to dogma and indoctrination. And get the technical aspect of your Aikido right, even that can feel like a lifetime of work. Getting punched in the face whilst expanding the fascia and creating breath pressure can be a little embarrassing….

BTW, if you look back through this thread, I didn’t bring up Dans name, one of the Aiki guys did…….

Also I stand by my previous comment that Tohei Sensei, 10th Dan and chief instructor at Hombu under the founder wasn’t doing the Aiki that you are propagating to generate his IP. I have come to this conclusion after many times questioning Maruyama Sensei in regards to these things, as he was his closest student, his chief instructor in the Ki Society, and his one time heir. So why would the founder pick someone that wasn’t doing what you are propagating as his technical king pin? How did Tohei get such ability? ....... back to the first article......

We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have virtue or excellence because we have acted rightly.
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:30 PM   #59
mushinaiki
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Re: Ai-nuke

For me the constant question is this, in the context of what Aikido is meant to represent,
If I train in Aikido, and after an undetermined amount of time I come to some IP within my own training then it's mine, a natural progression of hard training and introspection. But to train for decades, and then realising I don't have IP in my Aikido at all, what is it I'm me that makes me seek it out?
To want to overcome others? To be better than, or stronger than others?
I have asked the question of all that I have met chasing the IP dream. Why do you seek it? It's a moral question no doubt, but one I feel needs to be asked as training is supposed to release us from the ego that wants us to learn to overcome anyone....
I just want to inspire others to know that whatever their Aikido journey is, if they train with integrity, through the founders message, that should be enough......

We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have virtue or excellence because we have acted rightly.
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:30 PM   #60
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ai-nuke

Peter - your expressing an opinion, or anybody expressing an opinion doesn't annoy me at all. Anyone's free to argue an opinion about what Morihei Ueshiba said and meant. Even the errors from your original post aren't annoying, they're just errors, that I discussed without reference to you personally. The only thing that I found annoying was the personal slights disguised as a historical essay. I'll leave the conversation here, since it seems that you're not actually interested in a conversation after all.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-24-2018, 01:08 AM   #61
Currawong
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Re: Ai-nuke

Peter,

I brought up Dan's name, because you were beating around the bush when it was clear what you were trying to say. If you'd started out with your post that you made explaining the particular issues you'd had with particular people was, then those could be discussed sensibly.

At present, you're jumping from what seems to be "appeal to authority" arguments quoting Ueshiba and your sensei, and discussions of practical martial issues, ie: The abstract versus the real.

The lack of actual Aiki is a real issue in training. Like Takeda said of Ueshiba, he couldn't handle wrestlers with his Daito Ryu until he learned Aiki. The lack of Aiki in practice, and even in an understanding the fundamental mechanics of how the techniques are supposed to work (something I believe you have brought up on your web site) has rendered them easy to resist unless there is a lot of movement. For me, this is something I learned the hard way.

Likewise, the lack of "alive" training has limited the ability of practitioners to handle fighting, to the point that people now even have fundamental flaws in their technique. This is more or less what you're saying, isn't it?

As for Maruyama, what he believes about what Ueshiba meant ... is what he believes. Likewise, what my sensei believes is what he does, and so-on. I cannot say what Ueshiba, or Dan, or (there are people, alive, who have far surpassed Ueshiba's spirituality) anyone else with a degree of self-mastery means, unless I can duplicate what they do within myself. Only then can one truly understand.

I'm glad you've found your perfect teacher. For me personally, I feel very grateful that I've been able to meet a number of amazing people who are incredibly dedicated to their various paths, both physical and spiritual. In some cases they have taken it to places that are beyond normal comprehension, let alone where science is capable of understanding. I wish I had the dedication and perseverance to take my own practices to where they have. However I'm not going to knock the most spiritually advanced person I know because they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, nor the most martially capable for what he isn't aware of spiritually. That would be projecting my own inadequacies on others.

Aikido chat: https://discord.gg/pPYTFh2
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Old 07-24-2018, 02:34 AM   #62
Alex Megann
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Re: Ai-nuke

Quote:
Oisin O'brien Bourke wrote: View Post
Just a general note on this: Any aikido practcioner who wants to join up or study Daito Ryu to strip mine it to "power up" their aikido just shouldn't bother. It's disrepectful of the tradition at best and actually unethical at worse.
Um... I thought that Stan Pranin, among others, proved that aikido was Daito-Ryu?

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 07-24-2018 at 02:39 AM.
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Old 07-24-2018, 03:27 AM   #63
mushinaiki
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Re: Ai-nuke

So I started this thread to talk about something I thought was important. That there has been historical cases in Japanese history were great men have discovered something by going beyond technique.
I didn’t want to mention names, because I have experience with these influences in my world i mention Aiki, let’s face it, it’s the flavour of the month, but it could just as well be tiddlywinks for all I care.
After being accused of not knowing what Aiki was I had to build up a resume of my experience to even apparently qualify to talk on these subjects.
I believe Aikido is the only vehicle necessary for the study of Aikido. From what you say, if you study the art properly you get aiki from it, and if you dont what are you, -useless?
I have seen the amount of time people spend on their Aikido decrease for the attainment of Aiki, when the point as you state is having effective Aikido isn’t it.
The argument just goes round in circles doesn’t it?
If the focus is just on the technical aspect what is it these great sword saints and budo Gods transcended?
“If you continue this basic practice, you will attain some wonderful power. Before you attain it it is something wonderful, but after you attain it, it’s nothing special.”

Practice the basics of the founders Aikido, Misogi, tanren, Shugyo, that should be enough.

Time to get off the merry go round now…...what a trip!

We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have virtue or excellence because we have acted rightly.
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:22 AM   #64
oisinbourke
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Re: Ai-nuke

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Um... I thought that Stan Pranin, among others, proved that aikido was Daito-Ryu?

Alex
Aikido may have stemmed from daito ryu, but they are different arts, they have different methodologies and have been from the beginning, but I know a lot of aikidoka believe otherwise. But even if they were the same thing, joining any group with the intention of taking proprietary teaching in order to personally benefit your own thing is unethical.

Last edited by oisinbourke : 07-24-2018 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 07-24-2018, 08:35 AM   #65
Alex Megann
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Re: Ai-nuke

Quote:
Oisin O'brien Bourke wrote: View Post
Aikido may have stemmed from daito ryu, but they are different arts, they have different methodologies and have been from the beginning, but I know a lot of aikidoka believe otherwise. But even if they were the same thing, joining any group with the intention of taking proprietary teaching in order to personally benefit your own thing is unethical.
Oisin,

"Aikido" tends to be defined with a very broad brush, as you seem to be doing here, and I have long believed that to be dangerously misleading.

Here's an interesting thing. My own aikido teacher was originally a student of Gozo Shioda, even though he has been in the Aikikai for decades now. I've been increasingly aware for quite a while that there are mismatches between the way his aikido works and how most Aikikai shihan teach techniques. The mechanics of his body movement seemed more subtle and more softly persuasive than what I had seen in what you might call the "Kisshomaru school", and in a way that is nothing to do with mere relaxation or softness in themselves.

After having noticed a certain person's name and opinions appearing regularly on this forum a few years back, out of curiosity I registered for a workshop he was due to give here in the UK. At that workshop, I had an epiphany: all of a sudden, I saw that my aikido teacher's "aiki engine" was almost identical to the method this person was showing (even though the outward forms they show are very different) and, what's more, he was showing us a set of exercises he learned from his Daito Ryu teacher that were clearly designed to develop these skills. I could see that both men's movements were fundamentally based on spirals and opposing forces, which I have never seen in the modern Aikikai Hombu Dojo style. Watching footage of Shioda Sensei and some of the senior Yoshinkan shihan, I can now see very similar mechanics to what I have seen of Sagawa and Horikawa from Daito Ryu.

Incidentally, I've come to the conclusion that the "aiki engine" of Koichi Tohei and his students (I assume this also applies to Maruyama Sensei, though it's been ten years since I saw him last) is different on a profound level from those of either modern Aikikai aikido or of the Daito Ryu / Shioda lineage. It seems very much based on the combination of deep relaxation with a very efficient use of gravity.

Now how this relates to Morihei Ueshiba (who of course had a Daito Ryu teaching diploma from Sokaku Takeda) is a whole other question...

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 07-24-2018 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:40 AM   #66
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Re: Ai-nuke

Quote:
Peter Kelly wrote: View Post
I have heard many question the old ways of teaching, and many western people don’t get the “you have to steal the technique” philosophy. Truth is, it’s not some antiquated form of transmission, it’s following the philosophy of “the way”, teach the technique and leave the rest up to heaven. Problem is western mindsets make us feel entitled. Eg-I have been training for x amount of years, with such and such a master and he had “it” and I didn’t get it, never asking why just thinking they should be entitled. In the “way”, the universe decides who is worthy rather than who is entitled.
I dont't think, the universe always decided, who got "it".
I heard stories of teachers which decided to teach one or two students the real things, the rest was shown useless stuff, the elected students were told to do the same with their own students later again.
So I don't agree it is only a matter of ego.
Nowaday it is not neccessary to hide the secrets in order to ensure the survival of the ryuha, so if there is an art one can learn, there should be a teaching system, and everyone who wants to learn the art should be able to rely on that system and to be able to do what others who have emerged from that school can do, assumed that he has the ambition and the skills to learn and to progress.
If the teacher has no interest in bringing his students up to the same level at which he himself is, the universe is not able to bring him there.
On the other hand, every teacher and every school has the right to decide whom he wants to teach, but if he accepts to teach somebody, he should be willing to share his knowledge, and not leave it up to the gods or the universe.
Thats not just a western approach, I think in chinese and japanese styles it works in the same way.

Beeing able to watch the teacher and to catch with ones eyes what he shows, is a good way to train awareness, but it is a matter of the teaching method, not of fate.
No one can steal everything by just watching, without explanations it is not possible to learn what should happen inside the body, it is more than just technique.
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:52 AM   #67
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Re: Ai-nuke

Hmm... I am thoroughly confused now.
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I believe Aikido is the only vehicle necessary for the study of Aikido. From what you say, if you study the art properly you get aiki from it, and if you dont what are you, -useless?
I have seen the amount of time people spend on their Aikido decrease for the attainment of Aiki, when the point as you state is having effective Aikido isn’t it.
The argument just goes round in circles doesn’t it?
This is your belief and you are entitled to it. But remember that we all have our own convictions. This is not what you said in your original post, and it is not presented with openness as implied, either. This seems to have turned from an advocacy thread into a criticism of others.

Many people train aikido for any number of reasons, of which martial effectiveness may not be one. In your quoted comment, "useless" stands out as a pointedly poor word. Its also relative since you have to define a purpose to evaluate.

You created an argumentation logic that breaks down every time a discussion of aiki and aikido takes place. You cannot ignore the conditioning training that produces "aiki", which is the foundation for how and why you move in aikido. That leaves you with the only option available to continue the argument, a pivot away from the original content. This is a merry-go-round of your own making.

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Practice the basics of the founders Aikido, Misogi, tanren, Shugyo
I don't contest this. I contest that systematized aikido does not properly instruct in these methodologies of training. You found your guy - I hope the exercises and training that you experience give you the satisfaction in your training. Advocate for your guy and support others to find what they are looking for in their training. Why covet thy neighbor's aikido?

I sometimes make a joke that if you poll everyone in the world whether they support solving world hunger, the poll would be like 99% yes. And yet, world hunger is a problem. Why? How can the support for the right thing not match our behavior to do the right thing? Its someone else's fault. It's always someone else's fault... Change yourself, change others... We spend a lot of time talking about why someone else is not doing what we are doing... yet we don't often change ourselves sufficiently enough to inspire change in others.

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Old 07-24-2018, 03:22 PM   #68
MrIggy
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Re: Ai-nuke

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Amos Barnett wrote: View Post
The lack of actual Aiki is a real issue in training. Like Takeda said of Ueshiba, he couldn't handle wrestlers with his Daito Ryu until he learned Aiki.
When did Takeda say this? Any source for it?
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Old 07-24-2018, 03:47 PM   #69
MrIggy
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Re: Ai-nuke

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
You cannot ignore the conditioning training that produces "aiki", which is the foundation for how and why you move in aikido.
There is a thread somewhere on aikiweb where Dan Harden himself wrote in a sense that of all of the Daitor ryu/aiki greats/powerhouses, as he named them, nobody moved like Ueshiba. In other words, it would seem that aiki itself wasn't the reason why we move the way we move in Aikido. Again the way someone moves in Aikido depends much on any external influence on their main instructor as well as on themselves, if there was one of course.
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Old 07-24-2018, 04:02 PM   #70
MrIggy
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Re: Ai-nuke

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
After a short period of training you will be able to experience the feeling of having a coordinated mind and body. You will be able to more easily handle stress testing without resorting to "muscle on muscle" resistance and you will feel yourself moving differently from how you move in everyday life.
So basically what you should get with regular Aikido training you have to have rudimentary aiki to achieve it. Great. How long is that short period of time supposed to be? 6 months a year?

Last edited by MrIggy : 07-24-2018 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 07-24-2018, 04:19 PM   #71
RonRagusa
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Re: Ai-nuke

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
So basically what you should get with regular Aikido training you have to have rudimentary aiki to achieve it.
Not quite sure what you're talking about here. Training mind/body skills are the heart of Aikido training as I was taught it and teach it. Aiki and Aikido are not two separate things. Aikido is the way of Aiki.

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Great. How long is that short period of time supposed to be? 6 months a year?
Some students get the basic idea in a matter of minutes. Others take longer. Everyone starts from where they are and we all move forward together in accordance with our abilities. YMMV.

Ron

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Old 07-24-2018, 04:30 PM   #72
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Re: Ai-nuke

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
There is a thread somewhere on aikiweb where Dan Harden himself wrote in a sense that of all of the Daitor ryu/aiki greats/powerhouses, as he named them, nobody moved like Ueshiba. In other words, it would seem that aiki itself wasn't the reason why we move the way we move in Aikido. Again the way someone moves in Aikido depends much on any external influence on their main instructor as well as on themselves, if there was one of course.
Yes, I think part of the understanding is that aikido is a particular way to move using the internal engine. I don't think you are overreaching in your comments, but I am wary of the logic. I would still advocate that the movement is internal in foundation. Aiki is not proprietary to aikido and there are any number of fight systems that use internal power movement to drive the art. I don't think we are saying anything groundbreaking.

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Old 07-24-2018, 05:08 PM   #73
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Re: Ai-nuke

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Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Oisin,

"Aikido" tends to be defined with a very broad brush, as you seem to be doing here, and I have long believed that to be dangerously misleading.

Here's an interesting thing. My own aikido teacher was originally a student of Gozo Shioda, even though he has been in the Aikikai for decades now. I've been increasingly aware for quite a while that there are mismatches between the way his aikido works and how most Aikikai shihan teach techniques. The mechanics of his body movement seemed more subtle and more softly persuasive than what I had seen in what you might call the "Kisshomaru school", and in a way that is nothing to do with mere relaxation or softness in themselves.

After having noticed a certain person's name and opinions appearing regularly on this forum a few years back, out of curiosity I registered for a workshop he was due to give here in the UK. At that workshop, I had an epiphany: all of a sudden, I saw that my aikido teacher's "aiki engine" was almost identical to the method this person was showing (even though the outward forms they show are very different) and, what's more, he was showing us a set of exercises he learned from his Daito Ryu teacher that were clearly designed to develop these skills. I could see that both men's movements were fundamentally based on spirals and opposing forces, which I have never seen in the modern Aikikai Hombu Dojo style. Watching footage of Shioda Sensei and some of the senior Yoshinkan shihan, I can now see very similar mechanics to what I have seen of Sagawa and Horikawa from Daito Ryu.

Incidentally, I've come to the conclusion that the "aiki engine" of Koichi Tohei and his students (I assume this also applies to Maruyama Sensei, though it's been ten years since I saw him last) is different on a profound level from those of either modern Aikikai aikido or of the Daito Ryu / Shioda lineage. It seems very much based on the combination of deep relaxation with a very efficient use of gravity.

Now how this relates to Morihei Ueshiba (who of course had a Daito Ryu teaching diploma from Sokaku Takeda) is a whole other question...

Alex
Hello Alex,

Years ago I had a ringside seat to view your teacher's (we will call him MK) development. This was the time when K Chiba headed the AGB. When Chiba returned to Japan, he summoned his father-in-law to spend a year in England and oversee the transition to what had become the BAF. Since I was at UCL, in London, my dojo was MK's dojo and I was able to see his development. My own training here has become largely based on spirals and opposing forces, but I would be hard put to explain how it developed. My influences here have been Saito's weapons, and the aikido of several Hombu shihans: Tada, Yamaguchi, Arikawa and Fujita (who also had some connection with MK).I suppose these teachers were/are part of the Kisshomaru school, which has evolved over the years anyway.

Finally, my time in the IAF allowed me to meet the present Doshu regularly (and privately) and my sympathy for the man increased. He once confessed that there were many avenues he would like to explore on the tatami, but he was prevented from doing so by the need to present what I would call 'standard Aikikai aikido.' He had no problem with me or anyone else doing spirals and opposing forces, but I had my own dojos and so was free to do what I wanted.

Finally, Peter Kelly has come in for some heavy flak in this thread and I can see why. However, he deserves our thanks for starting the thread to begin with and for helping it along.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 07-24-2018, 07:57 PM   #74
MrIggy
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Re: Ai-nuke

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Not quite sure what you're talking about here. Training mind/body skills are the heart of Aikido training as I was taught it and teach it. Aiki and Aikido are not two separate things. Aikido is the way of Aiki.
Nevermind.

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Some students get the basic idea in a matter of minutes. Others take longer. Everyone starts from where they are and we all move forward together in accordance with our abilities. YMMV.
I see, thanks for the clarification.
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Old 07-24-2018, 09:26 PM   #75
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Wrestlers and Ueshiba

The actual quote is kind of different . . . It is in an interview with Takeda TOKIMUNE - and he says that his father was invited to the Omotokyo headquarters because Ueshiba couldn't handle the stronger students. And then he says that his father taught him jujutsu - that with aiki alone, Ueshiba wasn't able to handle them.

This really messes things up, doesn't it?

But WHAT was Tokimune's definition of aiki. Tokimune, if I recall correctly, first studied with his mother, and did 'train' with his father, when a small child (his father basically would have him try to defend himself with a bokken against him, and he'd knock the bokken out of his hands and he'd have to dig it out of the snow and try again. Tokimune was largely abandoned as a teenager, his mother dead and his father on the road. He used to go to the Horikawa's per Missus H., but it is unclear if he went there for comfort and kindness, or if he also learned some lessons.
3. What Tokimune did (and Kondo follows) looks like a different aiki (jutsu/do) than Hisa, than Horikawa, than, Shikoku, . . . what did he mean by aiki.

I've read through the thread in one go, so I can't cite who said what. But I know of no one but the Ta cheng ch'uan (aka I-ch'uan) who claim that training in IS alone (in their case, post standing) will make you a strong fighter (and the best of them cheat by bootlegging back in the xingyi they abandoned - or Western boxing). The most significant of the individuals who have attempted to distill general principles of IS from various martial traditions, all of whom I know, do NOT claim that training aiki or qijin alone will make you a fighter. That is like building a wonderful car engine, leaving it on a frame, turning it on and expecting to travel. But to strain the metaphor, some martial arts are like having a wonderful car, with beautiful wheels and running it on a rubber band. Or, if not so bad, you've got a great car with a fine engine, but one with so much friction, that it breaks easily and is hard to repair, and gets worse with age.

So aiki? Changing the engine, or at least, radically changing the gear ratios. Making the engine self-lubricating and self-repairing, so it gets stronger with age. What's your vehicle? How about aikido?

So, how about this. You do no solo exercises (even though O-sensei did). You just do aikido. And through the process, you develop aiki. May so. But I have found, in another context that when my trainees learn a kata, there are sticking points, there are flaws and no matter how many times we go through the kata (pattern drill) those flaws impair the development of everything. So I break out a single portion of the kata, maybe a single waza, maybe a fraction of the waza - maybe I have them repeat the movement on their own . . . .what's this? We are back to solo training exercises to hone specific skills.

So given that we need to do that anyway, why not make use of the methodologies that O-sensei felt were essential to develop his aikido? (not just his aiki)

Of course, others may regard the martial art itself as overly stylized, as inefficient - - - - maybe all that's true too. But it's also a fairly wonderful idea to have a 1938 Packard with a supercharged engine and 26 coats of opalescent black lacquer paint. (hint - that's a metaphor

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