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Old 08-14-2018, 06:06 AM   #26
dps
 
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
When self-defense stops, fighting occurs. That's why you'd better know both. Aikido, at least by Ueshiba, isn't a self-defense martial art.
Honestly, why do you think Aikido is not a self defense martial art?

Do you feel that there was a time in Osensei's life when Aikido was martial and was used as self defense and Osensei decided to practice it for a different reason?

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:26 PM   #27
sorokod
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Honestly, why do you think Aikido is not a self defense martial art?

Do you feel that there was a time in Osensei's life when Aikido was martial and was used as self defense and Osensei decided to practice it for a different reason?

dps
Can you articulate what you mean by "self defence martial art" and how Aikido is that?

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Old 08-14-2018, 01:29 PM   #28
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

I will throw out a couple of comments (that I am pretty sure I have said before)...

Self-defense is a legal concept, largely in the US. It's an affirmative defense (justification) for acts against others. We have socialized the phrase to imply a greater presence in the world than maybe actually is. Fighting is fighting; "self-defense" is an excuse about why you fought.

Aikido is not self-defense. That is, because one trains in aikido does not make one ultimately in a state of "self-defense". This kind of rhetoric has (and continues) to misinform people about aikido and I am not a fan of the inclusion of self-defense into statements about aikido.

I think there is pretty firm language that O Sensei said that points to a consistent message that aikido is a individual pursuit of training, from which stems values that we identify as passive in nature (i.e. non-violent, defensive, etc.). That we personally take that message and further imply that preservative = self-defense is on us. Aikido is a training methodology to teach the body how to move; overlapping that training is a philosophy that helps to place our movement in context.

The conversation reminds me of the medical creed, Primum non nocere (first, do no harm). From a simple statement come a myriad of extrapolated perspectives. Aikido is similar in the sense that our individual interpretation of a statement is based on our personal ability to support that statement. I think we rely far too much on a claim to ethos that does not originate in ourselves.

Last edited by jonreading : 08-14-2018 at 01:33 PM.

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Old 08-14-2018, 03:28 PM   #29
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Can you articulate what you mean by "self defence martial art" and how Aikido is that?
"The Aikido that I first saw being demonstrated by Abbe Sensei in 1956 was without doubt a positive martial art.
I was immediately impressed by its positive techniques and power, and in those days my fellow martial artists and I were in no doubt that we were witnessing a devastating new form of self-defence as demonstrated by Kenshiro Abbe Sensei."

"Is Aikido a Martial Art?"
Sensei Henry Ellis - 2001
http://www.ellisaikido.org/isaikmart.html

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:27 PM   #30
sorokod
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
"The Aikido that I first saw being demonstrated by Abbe Sensei in 1956 was without doubt a positive martial art.
I was immediately impressed by its positive techniques and power, and in those days my fellow martial artists and I were in no doubt that we were witnessing a devastating new form of self-defence as demonstrated by Kenshiro Abbe Sensei."

"Is Aikido a Martial Art?"
Sensei Henry Ellis - 2001
http://www.ellisaikido.org/isaikmart.html

dps
It is till not clear to me what you mean by self defence martial art. What qualities it has , what qualities it has not. Perhaps a comparison to a martial art that is "not self defence". That kind of thing.

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Old 08-14-2018, 07:21 PM   #31
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

IMO the common-sense definition of a self-defense martial art, would be a martial art that would be useful in a situation like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHdyzo5X6Nc

Or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6HFSr8Nkos

Or perhaps this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wO0u4QW0pk
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:59 AM   #32
dps
 
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
It is till not clear to me what you mean by self defence martial art. What qualities it has , what qualities it has not. Perhaps a comparison to a martial art that is "not self defence". That kind of thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:28 AM   #33
RonRagusa
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Aikido is effective self-defense because we deal with what is, here, now: not what should be or what could be or what we want it to be.

Aikido helps us cut through the denial, minimization, and rationalization.

Our minds, bodies and spirits come together in the moment.

By practicing being here, now, we develop awareness for when something feels off.

We learn to believe ourselves.

We pay attention and most importantly we stay, with what is, here, now.

Aikido is effective self-defense because we are awake. We can do what we need to do to stay safe.
Aikido training helps cultivate the skills above, all of which are necessary for self defense. In addition Aikido practice will enhance all the physical skills commonly associated with being able to defend one's self.

Ron

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Old 08-15-2018, 10:05 AM   #34
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Honestly, why do you think Aikido is not a self defense martial art
Because it's quite evident from all of the available resources that Aikido wasn't meant to be a "passive-aggressive" martial discipline. For instance O'sensei always advocated for the initiation of techniques from Nage's side.

Quote:
Do you feel that there was a time in Osensei's life when Aikido was martial and was used as self defense and Osensei decided to practice it for a different reason?
I don't understand this question?

Last edited by MrIggy : 08-15-2018 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:27 AM   #35
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Because it's quite evident from all of the available resources that Aikido wasn't meant to be a "passive-aggressive" martial discipline. For instance O'sensei always advocated for the initiation of techniques from Nage's side.

I don't understand this question?
OK thank you.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:32 AM   #36
dps
 
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Aikido is effective self-defense because we deal with what is, here, now: not what should be or what could be or what we want it to be.

Aikido helps us cut through the denial, minimization, and rationalization.

Our minds, bodies and spirits come together in the moment.

Maybe later we can talk about what we should have done or what could have happened.

By practicing being here, now, we develop awareness for when something feels off. Our neck hairs may prickle or our ears pick up a strange vibration. Maybe the air smells different or we catch a flash out of the corner of our eye…or maybe we notice a change of tone or nuance of body language.

We learn to believe ourselves.

We pay attention and most importantly we stay, with what is, here, now.

Aikido is effective self-defense because we are awake. We can do what we need to do to stay safe. The situation will provide the details we need to get to resolution and safety.
"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. There will be nothing else to do, and nothing else to pursue. Live being true to the single purpose of the moment."

― Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:52 PM   #37
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews/interviews.html
The following interview, conducted by two unnamed newspapermen, appeared in the Japanese-language text Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Tokyo, Kowado, 1957, pages 198-219. It was translated from the Japanese by Stanley Pranin and Katsuaki Terasawa.

Quote:
"In Aikido, there is absolutely no attack. To attack means that the spirit has already lost. We adhere to the principle of absolute nonresistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker. Thus, there is no opponent in Aikido. The victory in Aikido is masakatsu and agatsu; since you win over everything in accordance with the mission of heaven, you possess absolute strength."
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Old 08-15-2018, 06:25 PM   #38
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
What a fantastic resource! You may find this very interesting as well: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=martial%20arts

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Old 09-11-2018, 08:29 AM   #39
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

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Scott Burke wrote: View Post

"I had an official position in the government and instructed at several military academies. The training at those academies was purely technical, focusing on the means of victory in battle. The guiding principle was "killing the enemy with one blow." Unfortunately, very few of those military men truly understood the concepts of loyalty and sincerity. Of course, there were some noble and brave officers who made great sacrifices for their country. However, the purpose of Aikido is to avoid killing another human being at all cost. It is never to be used for fighting and contention."

(The Heart of Aikido, p 99. Kodansha USA, 2013. Original Japanese title Takemusu Aikido, translated by John Stevens.)
Yes, but is that quote from before or after the war?

Quote:
Interestingly, something I've found in my research into Kobu/Aikibudo of the 1930s is the seeming separation (or a recognition of the separate yet overlapping nature) of Ueshiba's aikibudo from his goshinjutsu (self defense arts).
This is something I have noticed to. I wonder if it was similar with Takeda.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:37 PM   #40
Dazaifoo
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Yes, but is that quote from before or after the war?
(Note, I have a biting sense of humor, so I post in that spirit, so don't take it too personally.)

Well, you could do a google search to find out when he said it.

Or, you can order The Heart of Aikido here https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Aikido-...eart+of+aikido and read what the old man had to say and when he said it.

Or you could take from the fact that he is referring to his military service... in the past tense... that this is post war.

Or I could do all the work and tell you that this quote was post war, because hey. I've got nothing better to do than to hop to it when people ask. Would you like fries with that too?

As for the other part of my original post.
"Now, considering that Ueshiba lived a long and storied life I'm certain we can find quotes from him seeming to contradict this statement. I'm curious to see what everyone else can uncover"

What do you have for me?
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:24 AM   #41
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
(Note, I have a biting sense of humor, so I post in that spirit, so don't take it too personally.)

Well, you could do a google search to find out when he said it.
Yes, but it's easier to simply go to the source of the information I'm trying to verify.

Quote:
Or, you can order The Heart of Aikido here https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Aikido-...eart+of+aikido and read what the old man had to say and when he said it.
And wait like a couple of months for it to arrive.

Quote:
Or you could take from the fact that he is referring to his military service... in the past tense... that this is post war.
Yes but his "military service" ended before the war ended.

Quote:
Or I could do all the work and tell you that this quote was post war, because hey. I've got nothing better to do than to hop to it when people ask. Would you like fries with that too?
Some mustard too

Quote:
What do you have for me?
Pancakes.
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:30 PM   #42
Dazaifoo
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Touche!
Glad to see folks can still take a ribbing here.
But fries and pancakes? I'd recommend at least a chicken fried steak with gravy to go with it.
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:25 PM   #43
dps
 
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Don't forget bacon. Gotta have bacon with the ribs.

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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