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Old 03-28-2017, 02:26 PM   #26
shuckser
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Good list.

In my experience, Aikikai, and especially Tissier, is strongly focussed on Uke reacting well. It's easy to be overwhelmed by his technique, but if Uke isn't "awake" the techniques would be very short indeed.

This is not unique to Aikikai this particular teacher of course, but Tissier does seem to spend a great deal of effort stopping Uke from moving too much or putting themselves in danger. Cancel, Equalise, Limit!
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Old 03-28-2017, 03:12 PM   #27
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

I just want to add a note with regard to Yuishinkai.

3 basic levels (kotai, juntai, and ryutai), which basically correspond to the Iwama levels mentioned above. After that, we have the more esoteric levels, and the names keep changing so I can't keep up.

Yuishinkai is an offshoot of Ki Society, so in many ways it is one of the softer styles with more of an esoteric focus. However, there has been a strong move away from Ki Society aikido of late to refocus on solid basic principles, IP, and ukemi. (You could say that Ki Society focuses on these things as well, but there is definitely a different emphasis in Yuishinkai).
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Old 03-28-2017, 04:36 PM   #28
rugwithlegs
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Any attempt to summarize a sub-style is bound to mislead. At the end, each teacher and dojo have their own style and emphasis. which may itself change over time.
Very true. For example, there are two Tomiki groups in my area, one that does not have any competition and one that does. There is no perfectly valid way to describe the influence and heritage of a life's work to develop a style in one sentence.

Calling Tissier Vanilla...Aikikai is it's own Baskin-Robbins, and not a flavor or style. Tissier has done something special with Yamaguchi's influence that is not the same as many other Aikikai groups. While Aikikai is considered separate from Ki Aikido many Aikikai shihan locally started with Tohei; a number did not.

Go with whoever is available first. I really enjoyed my brief Yoshinkan experience but I lived over a thousand miles away from the dojo I visited. I enjoyed training under teachers who are dead, so there is no practicing with them.

If the best case scenario happens and you find the style a great fit, you'll spend many years with the same people. Pick someone you don't regret spending time with.

Some teachers do not allow students to go to other schools even if they could be complimentary.
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Old 03-28-2017, 05:05 PM   #29
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Quote:
Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: View Post
So in an attempt to summarize from the different resources, are these accurate (albeit brief) statements regarding the different styles comparatively to "vanilla" or "neutral" aikido?

Yoshinkan - The "hardest" type, similar to aikijutsu, strong emphasis on stance and basic forms before flow.

Iwama - Strong focus on weapons training, firm grip and stable hanmi.

Yoseikan - Closer to a hybrid of Aikido and judo, focus on sincere attacks.

Shodokan - Competitive aikido with lots of randori.

Ki Society - Arguably considered a softer style, lots of focus on ki, breath, relaxing and balance.

Wadokai - Emphasis on street effectiveness and philosophical teachings.

Kobayashi - More emphasis on suwari waza and aiki taiso exercises.

Tendoryu - Unclear, emphasis on ki.

Shingu - No information

Nishio - Focus before initial contact, weapons emphasis.

Yamaguchi - Sensitivity to your partner, teaching one another and feeling of the movement emphasized.

Manseikan - Softer? More about connection and breath.

Yoshokai - Similar to Yoshinkan but with more partial pivots and less blending. Weapons emphasis.

Kokikai - Similar to Ki Society, perhaps more emphasis on maintaining a "positive mind".

Shinwakan - Disbanded. Similar to Yoshinkan.

Fugakukai/Kihara - Based around self defense, toshu randori focus.

Yuishinkai - Daito Ryu influenced. 5 "levels" of aikido technique? Unclear

Nippon Kan - Emphasis on community support.

Keijutsukai - Flow without force, rational/practical approach, circular movements and adequate distance emphasized.

Tissier - Not really a style but relevant in this case. Vanilla aikido though slightly more flow-orientated.

Aikikai - The baseline for most of the above, "standard" aikido.

Would those be fair? This is from pretty minimal research at best but with a combination of wikipedia and google that is more or less what turns up for each of them.

And what I can take from the comments - training in different styles is useful and helps your aikido grow, although at least initially I should not try to use what I learn outside of my dojo within my dojo.
Hello,

You mention 'vanilla' aikido and apply it to Christian Tissier, but with more 'flow'. Does this give it extra flavour, like vanilla plus plus, or make it a different style? And how do you define a style? Do you do it like Wittgenstein, as in family resemblances, or in some other way? And where does the history come in? Since Morihei Ueshiba led the Kobukai, which became the Aikikai, is his style vanilla, also?

Really, I am questioning the whole basis for your distinguishing different styles without first clarifying what you are looking for and especially what you mean by a style in this case.

I have trained with many of the names on this list, but my affiliation has been to the Aikikai. On the other hand, Peter R might recall a few training sessions in Himeji, where three of us trained together: Shodokan, Yoshinkan and 'Aikikai'. These were very interesting and productive.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Old 03-28-2017, 06:46 PM   #30
MrIggy
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Quote:
Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: View Post
And what I can take from the comments - training in different styles is useful and helps your aikido grow, although at least initially I should not try to use what I learn outside of my dojo within my dojo.
Technically speaking, NO. Training in other styles of Aikido will not help your Aikido grow or anything else for that mater. If you wish to attain a high level of proficiency in Aikido as a martial art, the "martial art" part being that you can defend yourself from almost any attack leaving the assailant/s incapacitated from doing or trying to do anymore harm to you, you have to train in the correct manner. You can train in Judo, Boxing, wrestling, BJJ, cross train in all of them and it still wouldn't help unless you have a clear idea of what is it you are trying to achieve. In other words, you can take bits and pieces, even whole techniques from other instructors and styles, even martial arts, but if you don't know how to actually use them to your favor they are of no worth to you.

Last edited by MrIggy : 03-28-2017 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 03-29-2017, 03:45 AM   #31
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

To be clear, I am paraphrasing what others have said regarding Tissier, I train under one of his students myself and my experience with Aikido is exclusively under this "style", even the seminars I have attended were under Senseis Guillemin and Gonzalez. For this reason, I am deferring to others definitions as I am not impartial and have no frame of reference. I consider it a fast, powerful style of aikido with beautiful flow that strongly encourages contact, but I don't know in comparison to other styles if that stands true. When I receive techniques from my sensei I feel as if the style is quite hard, but perhaps if I had experienced Yoshinkan for "scale" I might believe otherwise. I do not define it as a style explicitly because Tissier himself does not, as he says, he trains in the style of the Aikikai though many of his students prefer to refer to it as "Tissier style", so he does not believe that it exists per se. I suppose it then gets into a discussion of is a style only determined by the root of it - i.e. is it not a style because Tissier says it isn't? Or is it a style because some of his students say it is? There is no clear cut line. Either way I will train with the man himself this coming May, I am eager to see what differences - if any - there are between his Aikido and that of his students that I have experienced.

Primarily by comparing styles I am talking about physical differences, such as doing more suwari waza or perhaps different approaches to specific techniques. Ones where there is a tangible difference in training, rather than a philosophical difference.

Also to be clear I am talking of sampling other styles, to either visit a dojo for one or two sessions or to attend a seminar. Not to permanently cross train. But there are few Tissier disciples in Greece, so inevitably attending a seminar outside of my dojo will be another style, hence the prompting of how the styles relate to one another. I may permanently cross train with something else once I am yudansha, but to do so long-term at this point I think stands to be more confusing than anything.

Regarding permission to train elsewhere, I think this is a difficult point too. Is it good etiquette to inform your sensei, even if it will most certainly only be once? I feel like this could only cause conflict, as if you feel like their aikido is not enough when in fact you are only curious of what else exists. Either way it may make them question your loyalty to the dojo, which nobody wants. And what if you ask for permission and they deny you? Then you feel as if they are restricting your training and/or possessive. But going behind their back also seems like a politically tense situation if it manages to get back to them. I did ask my Sensei once about an upcoming seminar several weeks ago because I knew he had trained with the shihan in question (Endo Seishiro), but he was a bit standoffish about it, not disallowing but there was an implied "why do you need more?" to the discussion. And no helpful information regarding if someone from our style would be fine at such a seminar (the information I was searching for). I have a feeling the conversation would go similarly with discussing of visiting any other dojo or seminar of another style.



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Old 03-29-2017, 04:42 AM   #32
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Cass - your dojo looks good at first glance. And rather than be curious about other styles of Aikido, if I were you I would have a go at the Taichi your dojo also offers.

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Old 03-29-2017, 04:51 AM   #33
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

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Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: View Post
Regarding permission to train elsewhere, I think this is a difficult point too.
You are a full grown adult and a paying customer. You don't need to ask permission. It is your time and money and you spent it like you want.

Telling him you're going to attend a seminar or check another dojo is good manners, nothing more nothing less. Your aikido teacher can't deny you permission not pull the "loyalty" card. He is not your legal guardian and much less your feudal lord and if he tries to behave like one.... run away form that place asap.
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Old 03-29-2017, 05:02 AM   #34
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Cass - your dojo looks good at first glance. And rather than be curious about other styles of Aikido, if I were you I would have a go at the Taichi your dojo also offers.
I'd go with the yoga/pilates and bjj.
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Old 03-29-2017, 06:02 AM   #35
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
You are a full grown adult and a paying customer. You don't need to ask permission. It is your time and money and you spent it like you want.

Telling him you're going to attend a seminar or check another dojo is good manners, nothing more nothing less. Your aikido teacher can't deny you permission not pull the "loyalty" card. He is not your legal guardian and much less your feudal lord and if he tries to behave like one.... run away form that place asap.
Painful for me but now I really agree with you Demetrio.
It's a bit worrying

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Old 03-29-2017, 06:42 AM   #36
grondahl
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Another suggestion is to use Youtube. Itīs pretty easy to get a first impression of different approaches. Look at both teaching/practice clips and demonstrations.
Itīs not the same as actually experiencing it first hand but still better than wikipedia.

And +1 on both of Demetrios posts from today.
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Old 03-29-2017, 07:14 AM   #37
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

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Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Another suggestion is to use Youtube. Itīs pretty easy to get a first impression of different approaches. Look at both teaching/practice clips and demonstrations.
Itīs not the same as actually experiencing it first hand but still better than wikipedia.

And +1 on both of Demetrios posts from today.
Well a picture is worth a thousand words and a video, I guess, is worth 10,000. The wikipedia article is pretty white bread due to a concerted effort to be neutral and even; which is as it should be. The problem with videos is they rarely present the system but moment in time, a particular aspect, or a demo by some practitioners. As said - can be better than wikipedia - but still .....

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-29-2017, 03:10 PM   #38
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Thumbs up Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I'd go with the yoga/pilates and bjj.
This.
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Old 03-29-2017, 07:01 PM   #39
Currawong
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Aikido styles really need a family tree of sorts to make even basic sense of the variety.

That being said, I'd cautious about trying to do too much at once. I tried doing Renshinkai (Yoshinkan-based) at the same time as my regular Aikikai practice and ended up injured when I tried to do forward ukemi in reverse to what I knew. Also having to focus doubly as hard every time I went to train for simple things like which foot to put forward made it less than relaxing to practice.

If I had the time to practice anything else, it'd probably be Tai Chi or yoga.

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Old 03-30-2017, 06:01 AM   #40
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Oh don't get me wrong - my dojo is a great dojo - and my sensei is fair, I'm pretty sure he'd never try to deny me "permission", but it is only natural to perhaps think your student is more likely to leave you if they come to tell you they are going to do some training elsewhere - even for a seminar, or a single class. Videos offer the same issues that Peter mentioned in terms of not being able to fully encapsulate a style - though I suppose nothing really does.

I find it interesting that everyone has mentioned BJJ or Tai Chi as alternatives but nobody Judo which I had thought about as potentially being the most complimentary. Between BJJ or Tai Chi I would probably go for BJJ or Judo, as I'd go for something harder rather than something lighter. Though as I mentioned before, I won't do permanent crosstraining anytime soon - I am thinking of something temporary like a seminar here and there on the weeks I feel like I want more (I train 7 sessions a week at the moment so no time really to fit more long-term lessons). But as it stands the most ever mentioned is the name of the sensei teaching (which I know only a very limited few of) and sometimes their style. From the sound of things, probably I would be most interested in Iwama/Yoshinkan/Yoseikan/Shodokan seminars, though with Iwama I am not sure I would be able to participate as we only train in bokken at my dojo and even then, once a week (no jo whatsoever). I will keep my ear to the ground for well-esteemed senseis (perhaps a list of those would be useful ha) visiting as well of any style to see if any good opportunities for a taste of different styles come about.



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Old 03-30-2017, 06:18 AM   #41
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

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Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: View Post
I find it interesting that everyone has mentioned BJJ or Tai Chi as alternatives but nobody Judo which I had thought about as potentially being the most complimentary.
I think Judo would be too rough for you.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:30 AM   #42
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I think Judo would be too rough for you.
Interesting, why do you think so? Comparatively to Aikido? On account of the posts I've made here? Or due to being a woman (where women generally do not orient toward the more violent martial arts).



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Old 03-30-2017, 06:31 AM   #43
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

BJJ is at itīs core an extremely soft martial art. The only one I have encountered where smaller and weaker people actually can handle bigger, stronger opponents based on skill.
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Old 03-30-2017, 07:56 AM   #44
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

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Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: View Post
Interesting, why do you think so? Comparatively to Aikido? On account of the posts I've made here? Or due to being a woman (where women generally do not orient toward the more violent martial arts).
No, nothing gender related at all.

Judo is hard on the body and, from your posts, I think you still do not have the athleticism and thoughness required. BJJ, as grondahl pointed, is softer and in some aspects more similar to Aikido than to Judo.
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:42 AM   #45
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Quote:
Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: View Post
I find it interesting that everyone has mentioned BJJ or Tai Chi as alternatives but nobody Judo which I had thought about as potentially being the most complimentary. Between BJJ or Tai Chi I would probably go for BJJ or Judo, as I'd go for something harder rather than something lighter. Though as I mentioned before, I won't do permanent crosstraining anytime soon - I am thinking of something temporary like a seminar here and there on the weeks I feel like I want more (I train 7 sessions a week at the moment so no time really to fit more long-term lessons). But as it stands the most ever mentioned is the name of the sensei teaching (which I know only a very limited few of) and sometimes their style. From the sound of things, probably I would be most interested in Iwama/Yoshinkan/Yoseikan/Shodokan seminars, though with Iwama I am not sure I would be able to participate as we only train in bokken at my dojo and even then, once a week (no jo whatsoever). I will keep my ear to the ground for well-esteemed senseis (perhaps a list of those would be useful ha) visiting as well of any style to see if any good opportunities for a taste of different styles come about.
Ehhhhh, just answer me this please, what is the main reason you started training in Aikido in the first place?
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:20 AM   #46
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

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Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: View Post
Interesting, why do you think so? Comparatively to Aikido? On account of the posts I've made here? Or due to being a woman (where women generally do not orient toward the more violent martial arts).
There are plenty of great female Judo players out there. In my brief time in Judo, I was frequently thrown by a variety of female Judoka from teenagers to adults.

Judo though is indeed harder on the body than BJJ and less forgiving of injuries. Instead of a clear uke-nage separation like in Aikido, you and your partner compete to see who can throw who first. There is always a chance if you will land on the mat with your toe/foot/elbow/hand/etc in the wrong position - the level of skill you will need to control your body while it is midair to avoid injury is much higher than in Aikido.

It is common for older Judoka to specialize in matwork and give up throwing altogether, because of accumulated hip injury. The last Judo club I trained at was run by a fairly old gentleman - I think he was old enough to have trained with Gene Lebell. Anyway, he had hip replacement surgery and so could no longer demonstrate throws. This club hosted a workshop taught by high-ranking Judoka visiting from the Kodokan in Japan - one of them was a little woman whose specialty was matwork (though her throwing skills are not exactly chopped liver as we say in the US). Her teacher, as you may have guessed by now, was a matwork specialist because he, too, was unable to throw after a lifetime of injuries.

Thus my observation, based admittedly on limited experience, is that BJJ offers better lifetime value than Judo.. If you're going to end up specializing in groundwork in your old age, you might well be training in the art that is better suited to that, instead of waiting to be forced into that specialization. Helio Gracie was still sparring and submitting his sons at age 95.
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:27 AM   #47
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
No, nothing gender related at all.

Judo is hard on the body and, from your posts, I think you still do not have the athleticism and thoughness required. BJJ, as grondahl pointed, is softer and in some aspects more similar to Aikido than to Judo.
Then it's proof that reading what a person says online does not make you know the person. I have above average athleticism and a better level of overall fitness than half of the people training in judo at my dojo. A little injury prone with my knees perhaps. Mentally perhaps a little too honest, competitive and emotional, though I think that would hurt progression in judo no more than in aikido - in fact competitiveness I believe is a good factor there.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Ehhhhh, just answer me this please, what is the main reason you started training in Aikido in the first place?
No individual reason really. I wanted a place to meet more people, to improve my balance, feel a little safer in the city and following the "samurai martial art" sounded fun. And hell, the hakama makes everything look cool, I liked what I saw at my dojo.

Anyway, ultimately I would probably try both BJJ and Judo to see which felt better, both seem to fill the gaps where Aikido lacks. I have always enjoyed strength-based sports so grappling would likely be refreshing.



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Old 03-30-2017, 09:40 AM   #48
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

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Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
There are plenty of great female Judo players out there. In my brief time in Judo, I was frequently thrown by a variety of female Judoka from teenagers to adults.

Judo though is indeed harder on the body than BJJ and less forgiving of injuries. Instead of a clear uke-nage separation like in Aikido, you and your partner compete to see who can throw who first. There is always a chance if you will land on the mat with your toe/foot/elbow/hand/etc in the wrong position - the level of skill you will need to control your body while it is midair to avoid injury is much higher than in Aikido.

It is common for older Judoka to specialize in matwork and give up throwing altogether, because of accumulated hip injury. The last Judo club I trained at was run by a fairly old gentleman - I think he was old enough to have trained with Gene Lebell. Anyway, he had hip replacement surgery and so could no longer demonstrate throws. This club hosted a workshop taught by high-ranking Judoka visiting from the Kodokan in Japan - one of them was a little woman whose specialty was matwork (though her throwing skills are not exactly chopped liver as we say in the US). Her teacher, as you may have guessed by now, was a matwork specialist because he, too, was unable to throw after a lifetime of injuries.

Thus my observation, based admittedly on limited experience, is that BJJ offers better lifetime value than Judo.. If you're going to end up specializing in groundwork in your old age, you might well be training in the art that is better suited to that, instead of waiting to be forced into that specialization. Helio Gracie was still sparring and submitting his sons at age 95.
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I am not insinuating that women cannot be good at Judo nor that they should not undertake it, I am questioning his assertation, not voicing my belief. I have seen some footage of excellent female judoka. I believe the injury points are valid though likewise you can say many people suffer from injury problems with Aikido as well - particularly the knees, as myself - so that they even stop suwari waza entirely or do not take certain ukemi. Is it more likely to be injured in Judo? Yes. Does BJJ also come with it's own risks of injury? (Quite possibly greater than that of Aikido) Also yes. Even if my own athleticism were not up to scratch for the art, is that a reason to avoid it? Should nobody that is unfit take up a martial art because it will be difficult? In any case, learning that art will improve your own fitness, even in Aikido at first my quads were not up to long stretches of suwari waza and not used to the amount of strain, but they have grown stronger and now do not present any issue.

If we are looking at lifetime value, Aikido itself offers one of the longest durations in terms of until what age you can remain a practitioner. Does that mean we should only train at Aikido because sooner or later other arts would have to be dropped? Can you not improve yourself by training with sincerity and determination while you are young and fit? Even if you eventually have to give those practices up, you will learn a great many things on the path that will apply to both. If the only thing that matters is how kind or soft the art is to your body in return perhaps Yoshinkan practitioners should give up their style and find another.



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Old 03-30-2017, 09:40 AM   #49
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Quote:
Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: View Post
Then it's proof that reading what a person says online does not make you know the person. I have above average athleticism and a better level of overall fitness than half of the people training in judo at my dojo. A little injury prone with my knees perhaps. Mentally perhaps a little too honest, competitive and emotional, though I think that would hurt progression in judo no more than in aikido - in fact competitiveness I believe is a good factor there.

Anyway, ultimately I would probably try both BJJ and Judo to see which felt better, both seem to fill the gaps where Aikido lacks. I have always enjoyed strength-based sports so grappling would likely be refreshing.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Anyway, trying both would be the best approach. Once you have first hand experience you can choose the one which better suits you as a complement to Aikido.
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:06 AM   #50
MrIggy
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Re: Complementary Aikido Styles

Quote:
Cassia Rose Heatley wrote: View Post
No individual reason really. I wanted a place to meet more people, to improve my balance, feel a little safer in the city and following the "samurai martial art" sounded fun. And hell, the hakama makes everything look cool, I liked what I saw at my dojo.

Anyway, ultimately I would probably try both BJJ and Judo to see which felt better, both seem to fill the gaps where Aikido lacks. I have always enjoyed strength-based sports so grappling would likely be refreshing.
Then i will put it like this. If you wish to feel safer and add something useful to your Aikido training, boxing with a touch of knees and elbows for close encounter situations (not Muay Thai but something in the sense of Dutch kickboxing with a bit more defense oriented mind), is the best option. You will see that certain Aikido techniques have openings for elbow hits (kotegaeshi) and knees hits (Kaitenage, Ikkyo) so they are a good trait to add. Also the footwork in Aikido is similar, some movements are identical, to boxing footwork because they both come from sword/fencing movements. The whole point is that you have to learn to take a punch and how to deal with timing of attacks/defense and distance, which are all equally important in Aikido as well as boxing. Once you have established that then you can try adding bits from any other type of grappling art although i don't recommend them as self defense for women, the best would a couple trips from Judo and the BJJ defenses and escapes on the ground, full mount especially.
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