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Old 06-18-2015, 02:04 PM   #101
Cliff Judge
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
If I break a guy's leg tackling him while he is looking the wrong way crossing the street into oncoming traffic - is this, or is this not, "harming him?" I grant you (and Mary) that it is highly paternalistic of me to do it, but this is not -- in my view, in the category of "harm" -- but protection from harm, though some incidental harm may result. Harm is not a binary category, IMO. The ground sometimes hurts me when I walk on it -- but I manage all right.

Conversely, if he does not break a leg -- but merely suffers hurt feelings at being knocked to the ground, and then begins to argue with me about my hurtful action merely because he never saw any car, then I think I am right to rely on the judgment of any of the vast majority of objective onlookers whether the tackle was in consequence of an oncoming traffic or not.

On this topic, though, I have the distinct impression that the people stepping off the curb looking the wrong way imagine the street is a welcoming space and that the cars give warm hugs ...
If you want to "paternalistically protect" or whatever transgender people, you need to be helping them stand up for who THEY choose to be. Why don't you be quiet and listen for awhile.

Aikido should be the path of empathy. You keep talking charity and pity.

The idea that transgender people have an illness that needs to be corrected by forcing them to adapt to their bodies has been done for decades. The result has been a lot of addiction, alchoholism, and suicide. Confirmation therapy has been shown to lower these risks.

OH WAIT YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THE ENTIRE FIELD OF PSYCHOLOGY.
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Old 06-18-2015, 03:47 PM   #102
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Maybe if there were fewer reckless drivers, there would be less need to knock people out of the way.

Since the "harm" experienced by transgender people is mostly inflicted upon them by society, maybe it is society that needs to be fixed?

Katherine
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Old 06-18-2015, 05:35 PM   #103
JW
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

This is long enough as it is, but hopefully entertaining to the reader!

Erick, I'm debating an actual in-depth reply. The bottom line here is that you seem to be unable to see gender as anything but the accurate or inaccurate perception of what biological sex characteristics a person's body physically displays (like color being the perception of what wavelengths are physically present in light).

I looked at your aikiweb profile, and just like in a dojo dressing room, I didn't see a penis. But isn't your sense of identity that of a man? Your online persona does not and cannot have reproductive capacity. Yet your personality has a clear gender. That personality doesn't come from you walking around all your life with your genitals hanging out on display. It develops within you (a cynic would say it is programmed by parents/others and by your own blind acceptance of society's norms as told to you).

On the phone, your physical sex characteristics don't all come through. But you remain a man. (I had a friend whose voice wasn't so deep. The short version of his name was androgynous. He didn't like being called ma'am on the phone even by a person he would never meet in person. Is that so weird? Is it so strange that self-identity, including gender, could be something that is embedded in the personality of a person, even within a venue completely separated from the physical body?)

Consciousness, personality, and self identity are generated primarily in the brain, not in the genitals.

Personality is a complex thing, and gender is a part of that. Personality is not "accurate" or "inaccurate" with respect to physical characteristics. If someone with a penis believes their body doesn't have one, ok, maybe they are delusional. BUT-- if someone perceives that they are..
- courageous
- timid
- ambitious
- curious
- happy and free when by the sea
- proud to be Chinese-American
- disgusted and ashamed at the idea of eating meat at a dinner
- lying in assuming the social persona of a man
then that is what is true about their sense of self. It doesn't have to do with their naked bodies in an empty room. It has to do with one's life experience and internal drive.

In short, a biological body's sex is sex, and a personality's gender is gender. Gender is involved in social interaction, sex generally isn't. Sex is involved in reproduction.
We as animals tend to correlate social interaction and reproduction. (Even sentient beings have roots as dumb beasts.)
Nowhere in that framework is there a requisite connection between sex and gender, because they are 2 different things. Unless you believe we must have sex with everyone we socially interact with. Not in my world.. but hey, sometimes I think Florida is another world!
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Old 06-18-2015, 08:30 PM   #104
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
(I had a friend whose voice wasn't so deep. The short version of his name was androgynous. He didn't like being called ma'am on the phone even by a person he would never meet in person. Is that so weird? Is it so strange that self-identity, including gender, could be something that is embedded in the personality of a person, even within a venue completely separated from the physical body?)
That happens to me all the damn time, due to my shrill and squeaky voice. It especially ticks me off when it is somebody calling me to sell me something or ask for money. It's like thanks, you made get off my computer and leave the internet undefended so you could call me f'ing ma'am!!

I knew a guy in college who was named Yi. Really nice person, brilliant mathematician, comic book artist, absolutely no visible secondary sex characteristics besides a pair of huge brown eyes.

I had no idea what Yi's gender was until an instructor for a class we had together called him "she." He goes "excuse me, I identify as a boy."

So the class is in stunned, awkward silence. The teacher gets really red, and is sputtering and really embarassed and she says, "I am so sorry I confused your sex for female."

Yi grinned at her warmly, and he goes "Oh I didn't tell you what my sex was. That's none of your business."

I have another friend I have known for years who transitioned to a woman very abruptly two years ago when her daughter turned 18 and she didn't have to worry about her nasty ex-wife ruining the daughter's life before she got off to college. I still keep getting the pronouns wrong. It's a challenge.

Transgender people really are asking you to make a change in your perception of them. It is understandable that people are going to feel that this is a big request. But its harder for them than for you.

So Erick, come on man, get out of your comfort zone, go out and meet some trans people, stop building spatial arguments about matters of the heart, turn on your empathy circuit.

Dude from Texas who thinks trans people are crazy - knock it off with stuff like the dog gif, that's not humor that's contempt. Don't be a bully. Anyway itis considered a mental illness, and the best treatment we've found for it so far is to let 'em be who they want to be.

And fwiw thank you to just about everybody else on this thread for being open and inclusive.
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:15 AM   #105
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

I've trained at a few dojo in Holland and Germany that only had one changing room. Everybody changed together, or at home or in the bathroom if they were shy I guess. Problem solved. No need to worry about categories.

Seriously though, I don't care what kind of lumps and bumps people have growing on their bodies. I am not in the habit of checking out everybodys genitalia in the changing room. Which is what we apparently are talking about. Preposterous. And on the mat we all wear clothes I hope.

Pauliiina
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:12 AM   #106
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Like Cliff, I would also like to thank many of the participants in this thread. You've shown compassion and a sort of stubborn decency that I, as an adopted New Englander, particularly admire. You have shared insights and wisdom that I'll happily appropriate in the future when confronted with transphobia or trans-discomfort.

Today's doka seems apropos:

"Mobilize all (your) powers through Aiki.
Build a beautiful world
And a secure peace."

Isn't aiki about finding alternatives, about creating more options for ourselves than "rock" vs. "hard place" (or "your kick" vs. "my block", or "you win" vs. "I win", or whatever)? To have more options, we have to first step beyond dualistic thinking. True on the mat, true off the mat.
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Old 06-19-2015, 07:55 AM   #107
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
Yes I am very concerned about this. I don't wear a Hakama yet and have all these questions:

Will I need to shave my legs?
... Will I be considered a cross dresser?
...The list is endless...
Nah, Boyo. Think kilt, man, think kilt.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:17 AM   #108
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
It would help if there were some recognition that you are talking about autonomous HUMAN BEINGS who are quite capable of deciding for themselves whether they are being harmed or not.
One may question this assertion. The capacity for human beings for self-delusion causing themselves suffering on many fronts is apparently limitless. Gautama Buddha said this -- not me. Often they seek pleasure in desires that then resolve to deeper sufferings -- and Buddha's own life illustrates this. So, for that matter, does St. Augustine's.

People's suffering on this point is genuine -- but as Buddha also said -- people usually misidentify their mental processes of perception -- desire, fear etc.-- with the objects of reality, and this is among causes of their suffering. In this I heartily agree. And Christians and Jews would typically stop here in their diagnosis of the problem of self-delusions, and assert a different treatment. Buddhism goes on to contend that the objects of reality are themselves also illusory, and complete extignuishment of the attachment or non-attachment of the self to internal or external illusions, including the illusion of the self, is the only salvation. Brave -- and bleak, that.

I cannot go that far. My salvation, if it comes, lies not in extinguishment of the self that is participating in or generating these illusions, it lies in the example of identification with and transformation through the willing acceptance of suffering in love and so becoming one with God. On the whole, I think O Sensei's spirituality was more in keeping with the latter than the pure Mahayana. YMMV.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:43 AM   #109
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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Transgender people really are asking you to make a change in your perception of them.
Demanding that others misperceive reality to conform to their own skewed views is bullying.
If you want to "identify" as something other than what you actually are, then I identify as your master, demand your recognition of that, and order you to hush.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:52 AM   #110
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
This is long enough as it is, but hopefully entertaining to the reader!

Erick, I'm debating an actual in-depth reply. The bottom line here is that you seem to be unable to see gender as anything but the accurate or inaccurate perception of what biological sex characteristics a person's body physically displays (like color being the perception of what wavelengths are physically present in light).

Your online persona does not and cannot have reproductive capacity. Yet your personality has a clear gender. ... On the phone, your physical sex characteristics don't all come through. ... Consciousness, personality, and self identity are generated primarily in the brain, not in the genitals.

In short, a biological body's sex is sex, and a personality's gender is gender. Gender is involved in social interaction, sex generally isn't. Sex is involved in reproduction.

Nowhere in that framework is there a requisite connection between sex and gender, because they are 2 different things. Unless you believe we must have sex with everyone we socially interact with. Not in my world.. but hey, sometimes I think Florida is another world!
Actually, Jonathan you have put your finger on the hinge of the problem. You are correct in your distinctions about sex versus gender. The problem though does not lie in the understanding of sex, but in our collective treatment of human behavior in terms of sex. Having objectified real people sexually -- as objects rather than persons -- we then overtypified and objectified gendered roles into the wide mix of market-based demands for satisfying every other demand for material objects. In this sense gender role debates are simply niche marketing in the sexual bazaar that we now inhabit. Human trafficking is not only happening in seedier corners -- there it happens actually -- among our class it happens virtually.

We started treating people like sexual objects and thus we began treating them like things to be modified -- not people to be loved and known for who they are and what they do. Now this objectifying illusion has sunk so deep that some people think that they must modify themselves into one of these overtypified slots of gendered roles -- merely because they have found discomfort in some aspects of the OTHER overtypified gendered role. One cannot interpret the living breathing cartoon that was displayed on the cover of Vanity Fair in any other way. I really don't see how actual women are not insulted by the whole tawdry, vain affair -- and so an aptly tilted publication for the effort. Deeply ironic, if one returns to the source of the name in Bunyan.

There are some truly basic, deeply sexual, gendered roles and these largely relate closely to reproduction, the family and how men and women relate in these basic aspects of human life. They are genuinely different and largely complementary in these respects that are deeply important to all human society and form the bedrock nucleus of what are truly healthy gendered roles. Beyond that core, though, in many other respects, and especially in a technological age, sex differences are less important or even dispensable distinctions.

But beyond that firm core of real sexual distinction, has been built this mushy accretion of an increasingly grotesque, and haphazardly constructed spongy superstucture of highly sexualized, objectified and overspecific gendered typologies -- becoming so byzantine and complex they have now begun to lose all meaningful shape or definition of even their superficial and artificially gendered distinctions. They have totally lost sight of the core (and real) sexual distinctions that underlie them, and which carry the true meaning of sex that gendered roles only point to. The finger pointing to the moon is not the moon. Pointing at a cow does not make the cow into the moon.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 06-19-2015 at 08:55 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:54 AM   #111
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
One may question this assertion. The capacity for human beings for self-delusion causing themselves suffering on many fronts is apparently limitless. .
"Thou hast railed on thyself."
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Old 06-19-2015, 09:39 AM   #112
kewms
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
One may question this assertion. The capacity for human beings for self-delusion causing themselves suffering on many fronts is apparently limitless.
Certainly. But the capacity of humans to fail to see the beams in their own eyes is also apparently limitless. (Jesus, since we're quoting spiritual leaders.) Better to keep one's mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

Katherine
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:20 AM   #113
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
OH WAIT YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THE ENTIRE FIELD OF PSYCHOLOGY.
I think you misunderstand the nature of authority and truth:

Einstein's very controversial theory of general relativity was once subjected to the authoritative criticism of a wide range of conventional physicists in a magisterial book entitled "Hundert Autoren gegen Einstein" (A Hundred Authors Against Einstein).

Einstein famously replied: "Why a hundred? If I were wrong, then one would have been enough!"

Truth and authority are only circumstantially connected, in many, many cases -- and the more controversial the issue -- the less connection there is.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:22 AM   #114
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Certainly. But the capacity of humans to fail to see the beams in their own eyes is also apparently limitless. (Jesus, since we're quoting spiritual leaders.) Better to keep one's mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
.. but when so many other fools are already busy shouting joyously -- hey, who will notice anyway, huh ...?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:44 AM   #115
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
"Thou hast railed on thyself."
Yes. And it is notable what, exactly, Orlando's complaint was, isn't it?

Quote:
You have trained me like a peasant, obscuring and hiding from me all gentlemanlike qualities. The spirit of my father grows strong in me, and I will no longer endure it. Therefore allow me such exercises as may become a gentleman, or give me the poor allottery my father left me by testament.
Who -- pray tell, my dear lady -- among those of varying opinions on this subject, is squandering our collective inheritance in this particular comedy of errors ? If you would, please bear my ungentlemanly impertinence to demand answer of so delicate a flower of virtue as thyself...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-19-2015, 11:51 AM   #116
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Yes. And it is notable what, exactly, Orlando's complaint was, isn't it?

Who -- pray tell, my dear lady -- among those of varying opinions on this subject, is squandering our collective inheritance in this particular comedy of errors ? If you would, please bear my ungentlemanly impertinence to demand answer of so delicate a flower of virtue as thyself...
You're misquoting. "Thou hast railed on thyself" is part of Orlando's response to is brother Oliver's calling him a villain. "I am no villain; I am the youngest son of Sir Rowland de Boys; he was my father, and he is thrice a villain that says such a father begot villains. Wert thou not my brother, I would not take this hand from thy throat till this other had pulled out thy tongue for saying so: thou hast railed on thyself." An amusing paradox; Orlando's point is that if Oliver calls him a villain, he must be one himself. So with your tut-tutting over human tendency to self-delusion.

At this point I'm just about convinced that you have no interest whatsoever in dialogue and honest engagement. The condescending, sexist head-pats make it clear that talking down to others is what you're all about.
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:52 PM   #117
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You're misquoting. "Thou hast railed on thyself" is part of Orlando's response to is brother Oliver's calling him a villain. "I am no villain; I am the youngest son of Sir Rowland de Boys; he was my father, and he is thrice a villain that says such a father begot villains. Wert thou not my brother, I would not take this hand from thy throat till this other had pulled out thy tongue for saying so: thou hast railed on thyself."
No, my quote is most assuredly from the play. If you would read just a bit more of it -- you will find the quote I offered, describing the origin of the dispute between them -- as opposed to their mutual recriminations.

On the whole, I find the real dispute they had more enlightening than their reciprocal aspersions of one another. YMMV.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:19 PM   #118
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
No, my quote is most assuredly from the play. If you would read just a bit more of it -- you will find the quote I offered, describing the origin of the dispute between them -- as opposed to their mutual recriminations.
Condescending again? I'm quite familiar with the play, Erick; where do you think I came up with my quote? Once again you try to move the goalposts onto a ground where you think you have authority, rather than address what is in front of you. Good luck with it! Any ground you try will prove to be equally shaky, as in this case, where your distraction tactic is to disingenuously ask "who...is squandering our collective inheritance in this particular comedy of errors". Perhaps you should begin by defining your terms, then. Just what "collective inheritance" do you think is at stake here -- the inviolable sanctity of gender roles, pink for the girls and blue for the boys? And how can another individual's different choices in any way diminish you? You make no sense.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:33 PM   #119
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Condescending again? I'm quite familiar with the play, Erick; where do you think I came up with my quote? Once again you try to move the goalposts onto a ground where you think you have authority, rather than address what is in front of you. Good luck with it! Any ground you try will prove to be equally shaky, as in this case, where your distraction tactic is to disingenuously ask "who...is squandering our collective inheritance in this particular comedy of errors". Perhaps you should begin by defining your terms, then. Just what "collective inheritance" do you think is at stake here -- the inviolable sanctity of gender roles, pink for the girls and blue for the boys? And how can another individual's different choices in any way diminish you? You make no sense.
Disregarding the all the ad hominem -- you quoted but still did not answer my question: Who -- in the context of our debate -- is squandering our collective inheritance? That is the nature of the brotherly conflict referred to in the portion of the play YOU chose to introduce by quoting As You Like It. I fail to see how I am now condescending to you by simply pointing to the actual context of YOUR literary allusion.

Maybe you intended The Tempest instead?
Quote:
Our revels now are ended. /These our actors,/ As I foretold you, were all spirits and / Are melted into air, into thin air:/ And, like the baseless fabric of this vision / The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, / The solemn temples, the great globe itself, / Yea, all that it inherit, shall dissolve; / And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, / Leave not a rack behind.
My own recommendation is this:
Quote:
You rub the sore, when you should bring the plaster.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-19-2015, 04:27 PM   #120
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Nah, Boyo. Think kilt, man, think kilt.
I would if I was Scottish. I am of Maori descendant, one of the indigenous people of our land Aotearoa (New Zealand) Our national costume is a piu piu worn by both male and female. A flax woven skirt.


Motto tsuyoku
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:47 PM   #121
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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I would if I was Scottish. I am of Maori descendant, one of the indigenous people of our land Aotearoa (New Zealand) Our national costume is a piu piu worn by both male and female. A flax woven skirt.

Well, you know... island tribes, warlike, ancestral tradition of tattoos, seagoing, skirts, difficult history with the English -- that's my Scots-Irish ancestors...

Spiffy new flag BTW...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 06-20-2015, 01:06 AM   #122
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
I would if I was Scottish. I am of Maori descendant, one of the indigenous people of our land Aotearoa (New Zealand) Our national costume is a piu piu worn by both male and female. A flax woven skirt.

[IMG]htt://www.teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/10390/piupiu[/IMG]
Hi Richard, Good morning, I see you are online.Hope you are well. Joe.

Last edited by akiy : 06-24-2015 at 08:17 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 06-20-2015, 02:51 AM   #123
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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Hi Richard, Good morning, I see you are online.Hope you are well. Joe.
Hey Joe, all good in the hood. Fitness could be better. Hasn't this been an interesting topic for discussion. Some of Ironside's retaliatory comments have me aghast. But I suppose the truth hurts? Hope you are in good health and spirit. Training hard for me trip to Japan August. Can't wait!

Motto tsuyoku
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Old 06-23-2015, 12:29 AM   #124
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Well Erick, although I share your distaste for a lot of the gender issues in our culture, I still am apalled by lots of the things you are saying.
The idea that there are certain core aspects of (cis)gender that are good and true (in contrast to a peripheral "superstructure" that is bad) for example is shocking. You seem to be suggesting that there are 2 distinct desireable gender roles, that all couples should be heterosexual, and that no one should be transgender. I wouldn't be opposed to humanity moving forward away from having gender at all, but you seem to be talking about moving backwards, not forward.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Actually, Jonathan you have put your finger on the hinge of the problem. You are correct in your distinctions about sex versus gender.
OK, so you agree that gender, like the other many attributes of personality, are generated by a brain, and are not the same as sex.

So fundamentally, what in essence is a person? A lump of flesh, or a consciousness? Which is primary and which is peripheral?

Your comments suggest you favor the flesh as primary. Meaning that consciousness is inarguably in error in transgender people.
Whereas I would say consciousness is the fundamental level of personhood: we are our personality, not our body. Thus the body is the one that could be wrong. (And furthermore I am not saying that in that case the body even has to be fixed.)

So what would the difference b/w transgender and crazy be?
A person who thinks he came from the future or was resurrected actually did not come from the future or get resurrected, so he is mistaken. But a person who is insecure is not accurate or mistaken, he is just insecure. A person who is passionate is just passionate. A tough person is just tough. We aren't taking lifelong behavioral data and comparing a person's claim/portrayal of being tough or passionate or insecure to some objective standard. It's just part of who they are. So in that sense a person as a consciousness and not a lump of flesh can be a man, and that is an attribute of that personality, completely distinct from the sex of the body that person inhabits.

At any rate, I am hereby coming out as a cisgender man, so I sure don't speak for the transgender community or anyone else, just explaining my point of view! I just don't think flesh is primary for personhood. (Yes, the flesh generates the consciousness, but once you have a conscious being, personhood is assigned to the consciousness, not the flesh.) If I get cut in half at the waist and live, I hope I am still a person and can vote, participate in culture, etc. The logical extension of that is that I would also still be able to be a man without being second-guessed by the peanut gallery.

And in the future if we figure out how to upload consciousness to a computer or something, I would hope to also still be a person.

Culture flourishes when information (ideas, personality) come to life, and it is inhibited in times when survival of the flesh is the only concern.
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Old 06-23-2015, 12:42 AM   #125
JW
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Well since I went and bumped the thread already:
Erick's idea that a transgender student would have a reduced ability to learn or do aikido is an idea uniquely suited to discussion here, so I can't bear to let it go.

It seems crazy to me, like suggesting that a less organized person (like me) would be bad at building a database; or that a person with poor math skills would have trouble using photo-editing software; or that a communist would not be able to be a good evolutionary biologist (given that capitalism-like competition drives selection).

Just to elaborate on the first example-- you can know exactly how things should be organized and accessed, and then program a database to employ the requisite relationships and user interface, all while being a person with a messy desk. Unlike on your desk, the database does the organizing of the records for you!

There are lots of reasons that your desk or life may become messy, and lots of those reasons don't interfere at all with your ability to make a nice database. In fact they may help make the database better (more nuanced fields improve a database of many similar records-- but that level of detail can make your real life messy because differences rather than similarities get emphasized in a world where tasks/issues are not always very similar).

A person can say, "yes I have a hard time keeping my desk clean, but I carefully made a slick database," and a scientist can say "yes I think communism is the best way for humans to live together, but that has nothing to do with biological evolution where we have competition, parasitism, hoarding, etc."
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