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Old 03-06-2007, 10:21 PM   #901
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Baseline skillset

I'll go along with the power coming from the ground directly through feet, legs, hips, and further up while controlled by center. I'm starting to feel how the center can only control this power/connection when there is that "suit" and/or "piano wire" connection throughout the body, and then admittedly it may be a bit difficult to tell what "moves" first, as it's not so much the movement as the ability to put the ground at a point you choose instantaneously that's important. And then using that facility to move. It's easier to tell when bits "move without connection to the rest" though, or even where the breaks in connection occur (all for some arbitrary level of connection, seeing as I'm a beginner).

Last edited by Gernot Hassenpflug : 03-06-2007 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:30 PM   #902
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Re: Baseline skillset

From my Greco-Roman wrestling days I remember the phrase, "shoot from the hips." I use to think that meant move your hips first, but now I am not so sure. Nowadays, I believe it to be most efficient to move one's center and legs in unison with all of your other body parts, including one's breath, ki and ultimately-the universe. But I do agree, the mind moves first.

Last edited by gdandscompserv : 03-06-2007 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:51 PM   #903
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Re: Baseline skillset

However, Hooker sensei brings up a very intriguing point. If the stomach is a "second brain," and the mind moves first, then isn't it possible that we should really be moving from our center first? Very fascinating indeed. Thanks Hooker sensei.
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Old 03-06-2007, 11:11 PM   #904
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Everybody and anybody can "move from the center."
It's what moves with it, how its connected and when, that matters.
Hell I'll add whether or not you can actively "move" your own center -as an entity-to begin with, even while standing still. Took me years!
And on top of all of that what you can do with an active center.
I've seen any number of artist from abysmal to really good who all claim they are "moving from their center." Tenkaning in a 3' circle can be a "pirouette from center."
So was Wang Chu Shin throwing Draeger and wrecking Bluming's hand by bouncing it off his.... "active center."
They are not......the same thing.

And the brain in the center thing?
Then we all have total control right?
All our hands our in our centers and our centers are in our hands.
We're done.....it was just a simple act of "thinking" with our belly brain...sure.

I'm just slow......I had to take the long route.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-06-2007 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 03-07-2007, 04:11 AM   #905
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

I've been in these conversations before. The problem is that there are only so many buzzwords and buzz-phrases in all the books that everyone has read/heard and there are enough talkers to spread 'em around thin.

I have to feel someone before I put much weight to what they say. I remember on the old Neijia List reading some guys discussing some pretty obscure things and thinking to myself, "These guys are da bomb". Then I met them and found they only had rudimentary skills, but they were smart enough to have extrapolated accurately the logic of how these things work and were saying all the right things.

So...... mebbe, mebbe not.

Mike
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:08 AM   #906
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Then I met them and found they only had rudimentary skills, but they were smart enough to have extrapolated accurately the logic of how these things work and were saying all the right things.
So what do you suppose prevented them from making the leap from; 'extrapolating accurately the logic', to putting it into practice. Since it begins in the mind, perhaps they were just at a different point in their progression. Maybe when they're older they will "get it."
And perhaps I just want to defend those like myself who really only have "rudimentary" skills.
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:36 AM   #907
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

Ricky
Thats true.....BUT!

I've had guys "explain" what I just showed them -back at me- far better than I just did. But all they had were words. A favorite joke in my place is when someone says "Ohhh! I do this and this. And then the idea is to do that ....." And we all watch......
But they can't do.....squat.
There are a whole bunch of guys reading this right now...laughing.

Its hard enough one-on-one. Words and explanations help. But its all about the work, and training. Much like learning any other budo's waza. These skills are a skill that needs to be trained and built upon.
I had a very good teacher say to me
Everyone talks
you? Shugyo
years go by
everyone's still talking
then you get up to demonstrate
then everyone knows the truth

Its a great model and admonition to research, and then do the work, because in the end, no one can stand.. for us, not our teacher, not our school, not our arts rep...or our words.
In the end our understanding... is in our hands.
Its no different than giving a book report on koryu bujutsu. Reciting all the right lingo and sounding like an expert!!
That's why Mike says meebee meebe not

Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-07-2007 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:03 AM   #908
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
So what do you suppose prevented them from making the leap from; 'extrapolating accurately the logic', to putting it into practice.
They didn't have the incentive to work hard and consistently. They wanted to talk about it, to be part of the "group", but they didn't have the drive to follow through.

Working hard to research and practice Aikido correctly is like going to Heaven. Everyone wants to go there....... but not yet.



Mike
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:33 AM   #909
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
They didn't have the incentive to work hard and consistently. They wanted to talk about it, to be part of the "group", but they didn't have the drive to follow through.

Working hard to research and practice Aikido correctly is like going to Heaven. Everyone wants to go there....... but not yet.



Mike
It would seem we agree on something after all.
Hard work and consistency are key. An often heard phrase in our dojo was; "shut-up and train."

Regarding the heaven thing, I heard it a little differently:
Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to do what it takes to get there.

Regarding wanting to be part of the group; I know very little about that.
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:05 AM   #910
ChrisMoses
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Controls maybe, but I disagree with the notion that it "moves first."
I don't think the tanden powers it so much as controls.
Motion should still iniate from the legs.
Anyone else want to chime in?
I'd say it depends a lot on what you're doing and what your goal is. Most would agree that whatever movement happens, it will initiate separate from the point of contact. Beyond that I don't believe there is or should be a hard and fast rule where you always need to move from. This is one thing that newaza really hammers home. If you only know how to root from your legs, you're screwed. If you need to begin all of your movements from your hips, what happens if they're trapped? I think it's actually more important to know how to move intentionally, stabilizing some areas of the body, and intentionally relaxing others all while maintaining sensitivity at whatever points of contact you have.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:44 AM   #911
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OK, so pick any traditional Japanese text on martial arts and see if they don't emphasize the hara/tanden/whatever. No need to publicly post that the middles locus is just some Chinese idea.

I'm unclear why the importance of the middle should have escaped you, if you've looked for the whole picture of the relationships. The "cross" is the minor one, not the major one.

Regards,

Mike
Hello Mike. For me the power and movement of the tenden was drove home with much clarity by my sword teachers than by my Aikido teachers. Perhaps it is just that I understood the concepts better with a sword in my hand. I can tell you that in real combat moving from the center and keeping the upper cross still gives you a much better view of the action going on around you. Moving with a stable center like floating along the ground kept me quite aware and controling the center kept me clam under duress.

Best to you
Dennis

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https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 03-07-2007, 11:49 AM   #912
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote: View Post
Hello Mike. For me the power and movement of the tenden was drove home with much clarity by my sword teachers than by my Aikido teachers. Perhaps it is just that I understood the concepts better with a sword in my hand. I can tell you that in real combat moving from the center and keeping the upper cross still gives you a much better view of the action going on around you. Moving with a stable center like floating along the ground kept me quite aware and controling the center kept me clam under duress.
Hi Dennis:

Well, as I noted before, this sort of thing is just an impossible discussion because in my experience everyone talks about their "center" and how they use it, but almost invariably I've found that everyone is talking about different things, even though they're using the same limited repertoire of words.

Best.

Mike
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Old 03-07-2007, 12:01 PM   #913
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Dennis:

Well, as I noted before, this sort of thing is just an impossible discussion because in my experience everyone talks about their "center" and how they use it, but almost invariably I've found that everyone is talking about different things, even though they're using the same limited repertoire of words.

Best.

Mike
I know Mike. I don't have the word skills to inter act well here. I would Love for all of us to get together in a big room some place. I heard some scuttlebutt that you may be visiting your daughter latter this year and the possibility of a little workshop. Is that true? I believe she resides on the east coast don't she?

Best

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https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 03-07-2007, 12:07 PM   #914
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote: View Post
I know Mike. I don't have the word skills to inter act well here. I would Love for all of us to get together in a big room some place. I heard some scuttlebutt that you may be visiting your daughter latter this year and the possibility of a little workshop. Is that true? I believe she resides on the east coast don't she?
Well, I just got back from there, Dennis. Might be a little while before I return.... I'm still in shock from the Beltway traffic. If I get onto the east coast again anytime soon (may have to visit one of my best friends in SC later this year), I'll let you know.

Best.

Mike
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Old 03-07-2007, 01:13 PM   #915
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Re: Baseline skillset

Just slightly off topic, but I found it slightly funny (in an ironic humorous way).

Posted by Josh over on another thread, he quoted some words about Ueshiba and André Nocquet

Quote:
André Nocquet wrote:
[One day] I said to Ueshiba Sensei, "You are always praying, Ueshiba Sensei. Then aikido is a religion."

"No, that's not true. Aikido is never a religion, but if you are a Christian, you will be a better Christian because of aikido. If you are a Buddhist, you will be a better Buddhist."
Well, some have said that these baseline skills apply to everything and that it makes what you are doing better. I guess Ueshiba thought that the baseline skills would make you better in your religion, also.

Mark
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Old 03-07-2007, 01:19 PM   #916
Fred Little
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Wink Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Dennis:

Well, as I noted before, this sort of thing is just an impossible discussion because in my experience everyone talks about their "center" and how they use it, but almost invariably I've found that everyone is talking about different things, even though they're using the same limited repertoire of words.
And as the videotape controversies have shown, while a picture may be worth a thousand words, eyewitness accounts aren't much help either.

But reports of reliable individuals with hands-on experience are another matter entirely, and in that regard Mike, your trip East and Ron's trip north were worth more than either the words or pictures that have been out there on the boards to date.

For what it's worth, Beltway traffic is really much, much worse than traffic around New York.

FL
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Old 03-07-2007, 01:30 PM   #917
Mike Sigman
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
But reports of reliable individuals with hands-on experience are another matter entirely, and in that regard Mike, your trip East and Ron's trip north were worth more than either the words or pictures that have been out there on the boards to date.
Well, (and this is just a rhetorical comment, not an effort to gainsay your comment) let me note that I have met up with various people, visited various places, etc., to see and feel various people myself, simply because I'm not willing to give credence to "reliable individuals". In the cases of these ki/kokyu skills, a "relable individual" may have a limited ability to deal with some fairly simple manifestations of jin/kokyu/ki skills and therefore his reportage may still leave me unsatisfied. Now if someone like Terry Chan or Forrest Chang or Mark Reeder were to post his impression of some people, I wouldn't feel constrained to travel so much because I can gauge from what I know their skills and perspectives. Joe Schmoe, the 30-year Yondan "reliable individual" reporting on me or Dan or Ushiro or Tohei, etc., can't be assured of giving a necessarily accurate picture.

In other words, Fred.... I can't do beans, but I baffled 'em with bullshit, smoke, and mirrors. Ask 'em about the qigong I led everyone through where I mixed sounds (like the ones in the Kotodama) and emitted qi. Get it from reliable individuals.
Quote:
For what it's worth, Beltway traffic is really much, much worse than traffic around New York.
Yeah, right.... remind me to tell you some of my experiences while driving around NYC during rush hour.

Mike
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Old 03-07-2007, 02:14 PM   #918
Fred Little
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
In the cases of these ki/kokyu skills, a "relable individual" may have a limited ability to deal with some fairly simple manifestations of jin/kokyu/ki skills and therefore his reportage may still leave me unsatisfied.

In other words, Fred.... I can't do beans, but I baffled 'em with bullshit, smoke, and mirrors. Ask 'em about the qigong I led everyone through where I mixed sounds (like the ones in the Kotodama) and emitted qi. Get it from reliable individuals. Yeah, right.... remind me to tell you some of my experiences while driving around NYC during rush hour.

Mike
Mike,

I'm getting like you about traveling. So for me, the "reliable individuals" test is the first one to decide whether the trip is worth making.

Of course, the train from the plane gets you from Newark Liberty to University Heights, Newark in about thirty minutes with no driving at all.

Ditto from NJIT to Midtown.

Oh how I do hate driving.....

FL
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:40 PM   #919
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I've been in these conversations before. The problem is that there are only so many buzzwords and buzz-phrases in all the books that everyone has read/heard
Quote:
Fred Little wrote:
And as the videotape controversies have shown, while a picture may be worth a thousand words, eyewitness accounts aren't much help either.

But reports of reliable individuals with hands-on experience are another matter entirely...
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, as I noted before, this sort of thing is just an impossible discussion because in my experience everyone talks about their "center" and how they use it, but almost invariably I've found that everyone is talking about different things, even though they're using the same limited repertoire of words.
No, it is is not impossible.. It is just impossible if one becomes stuck on one and only one measure of perception in what is happening. As Fred notes, your eyes tell you what you see, your body tells you what you feel and words and the concpets they represent manipualted by the mind, help to relate those utterly different means of perception that otherwise have nothing in common to some possible common factors in the given event.

You cannot trust your eyes to see what you must feel. You cannot trust your body to feel what you must see. You cannot trust your own internal perceptions of movement in judging objective movement. Internally, you have no independent frame of reference from which to observe.

Your perceptions can be fooled -- by your own perceptions, as well as by the midn that is receiving them. Too many pilots have augured into the smoking holes trusting the "seat of the pants" to prove that point. It is no different here.

Video shows you some of the truth. "Feel" of you partner shows some of the truth. Your own internal perception of movement shows you part of the truth. Only by careful, skeptical stitching of those bits of truth together is going to get you anywhere near a passing whole-looking truth with the strength to stand some wear. And ultimately it will fail too, and then you stitch them back together in some other useful way.

Some of you mock my efforts at description with a certain rigor of language (which is not math, nor operative experiment, despite the continued objections on those points.) That rigor is absolutely necessary to avoid the traps of description you yourselves identify. Without it, you are exactly correct in your position that it is "impossible."

You see a video and you often interpret it on the basis of what you feel when you do something similar, and then describe it thus. I simply describe what a given video actually shows happening. My imagining my own feeling of doign the same thing is not appropriate to the viewing of the video, because it has an objecitve frame of reference, which my internal feelgin do not and cannot have.

One can understand how these things relate in intuitive, subjective ways that are as different as the people involed. But a subjective intuitive understanding cannot be relaibaly communicated, As Mike and Fred both note. It must be made objective to meaningfully communicate it to another person. It must be objective to test whether one or more of your senses may be lying to you. And they do, with fair frequency.

They can only be reconciled, objectively, by later examining what I felt when I do something similar, or feel it fdone to me and what the video ( or teacher or student performing the movement) actually shows happening when I see it. That "feel" may well and very often does demonstrate something to me that is really happening and that cannot be easily seen in the videos. But equally, the feel does not put the lie to the video -- or vice versa.

I cannot do this task in the moment., I can only only do it afterward. But I can by doing so, I can correct the next "moment" when I might be called upon to perform the action, and refine or correct its function.

These completely different forms of information must be reconciled on a basis that is inherent to neither one. It must be done on a conceptual basis, in the mind. It is the common repository of all the perceptions, and yet it has none of its own, at least none physical.

You can do that in a very loose, changeable fashion -- that is metaphor and poetry, and O sensei's preferred mode. You can also do it with a rigor of meaning and distinction, with a neutral and detailed vocabulary suited to do the job. I am not much of a poet, so thatis my preferred mode. Both have their place, and using one to the exclusion of the other is not the road to truth either. O Sensei explicitly recognized this, back in 1933.

There is not one single trustworthy type of evidence for anything. There are reliable conceptual means to compare and test the sense data and give them an objecitve reliable framework and operating vocabulalry about which we can meaningfully talk and make close distinctions -- without incessantly debating the terminology in (at least) three languages.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:34 PM   #920
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

There is not one single trustworthy type of evidence for anything. There are reliable conceptual means to compare and test the sense data and give them an objecitve reliable framework and operating vocabulalry about which we can meaningfully talk and make close distinctions -- without incessantly debating the terminology in (at least) three languages.
So we don't know what we see..........
and we can't see what we feel..........
And we can't trust what we felt or see..........
So we don't -know- what we know and see...........

But -you- tell -us- what we and or Ueshiba are doing at length?
That is an example of -your- confusion and lack of knowledge.
Not ours.
Don't drag me into your confusion.

Lets consider
1. Dozens of men have come and felt us. We taught them.
2. In my case many men were shown AND taught....by my students
.....Students Eric. Not just me.
What does that make of your model?
a. I know what I do
b. I teach it, and students do it
c. They can show it and teach it

Your aiki web folks have felt it and in some measure had it taught to them and they then did things as well. And no one...not one... mentoned rotational dynamics.

Years are going by and we are making a group of men who now know, Eric. And among the things they know- is that you... do not.
You can't do these things, and you don't know these things. Your writing shows it. Your looooong, overanylized, convoluted, and meandering explanations have not been able to disguise that one simple fact.
Just go learn Eric. Come have fun. You're yakin with a bunch of Budo bums like yourself. I'll show you what I know and we can laugh. You can even try to do Aikido...to me....I'll wear a keikogi and Hakama for the occasion.I just don't have any chaulk boards and calculators in the Dojo.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-07-2007 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:15 PM   #921
Fred Little
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Re: Baseline skillset

Two Data Perspectives:

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/13/4/8

http://www.stradivariusmusic.com/music/track_01.mp3

With any luck, there's something for everybody there.
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:50 PM   #922
DH
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Re: Baseline skillset

No Fred its just more B.S to muddy the waters.The ways to do these basic things are known. Nothing is as funny as reading loooong diatribes that are really just so much drivvle, from folks who can't do this stuff in the first place. Why bother talking? I'd rather read opinions from those who thought they knew-then realized they didn't know. Or their views of how it is relevant to creating Aiki in Aikido.

Its nothing new though. Not pointing to Eric or anyone in particular.
Budo has always had its share of Eggheads who are full of theories and histories and facts who talk really, really, well. "We need to revew the Data. Can I have more data?" ..... but can't do shit.
Also teachers in love with the sound of their own voice who bore you to tears and leave a fraction of the class to learn. Sure explanations are rellevant, but last time I checked Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba, and Mifune weren't knee deep in physics models. Find someone who will show and teach and learn.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-07-2007 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 03-07-2007, 09:20 PM   #923
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Re: Baseline skillset

Pachelbel Canon in D. Stradivarius is Ueshiba?
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Old 03-07-2007, 09:54 PM   #924
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Two Data Perspectives:

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/13/4/8

http://www.stradivariusmusic.com/music/track_01.mp3

With any luck, there's something for everybody there.
Thanks, Fred. Excellent on both scores Human beings stand on two legs for a reason.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:03 PM   #925
eyrie
 
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Re: Baseline skillset

*sigh*.... it's just more "noise" which is completely unrelated to the thread topic... on both counts.

Ignatius
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