No Touch Throws

I've experienced the "no- touch" throw. Frequently.... Having someone closeline you during a "freight-train" iriminage is not something you'd care to repeat. Was that "ki" I felt, as I took ukemi rather than the envisioned trachiotomy, or just body-memory? I can tell you it sure isn't a pre-concieved reaction to the technique. But he didn't touch me - and I flew.

Peter Zalinski wrote: I've experienced the "no- touch" throw. Frequently.... Having someone closeline you during a "freight-train" iriminage is not something you'd care to repeat. Was that "ki" I felt, as I took ukemi rather than the envisioned trachiotomy, or just body-memory? I can tell you it sure isn't a pre-concieved reaction to the technique. But he didn't touch me - and I flew.

Precisely!

By any chance did your sensei shout kamehameha! when he threw a ki blast at you?

Peter Zalinski wrote: I've experienced the "no- touch" throw. Frequently.... Having someone closeline you during a "freight-train" iriminage is not something you'd care to repeat. Was that "ki" I felt, as I took ukemi rather than the envisioned trachiotomy, or just body-memory? I can tell you it sure isn't a pre-concieved reaction to the technique. But he didn't touch me - and I flew.

Errr, no! He didn't throw you!

You attacked and he wasn't there. You fell over!

I saw a really nice no touch throw on a sandan test once. The uke was nage's big brother who practices the AAA version of aikido. When nage's open palm came flying into uke's face the ki projection was so strong that it shot uke straight down into the ground. Or, uke was really convinced that his younger brother was gonna plow him one and did what he could to avoid getting a broken nose...which was fall.

Same same in my book.

Bronson

Peter Zalinski wrote: Was that "ki" I felt, as I took ukemi rather than the envisioned trachiotomy, or just body-memory?

Yes.

That's the real problem with the idea of a long-distance ki blast. Ki doesn't exist in a vacuum and, IMO, involves nearly as much psychology as it does energy or physics.

The psychology of someone keying on you from across the room is very different from the psychology of someone throwing a hand in your face as you come barrelling toward them at top speed. You can "feel" both in an almost tangible way, but your reaction is bound to be different.

Mind you, the "keying" thing should be taken seriously. Try keying on a rottweiller if you don't believe me. On second thought, don't. You may not believe it works, but the dog will and I don't want to hear about it when said dog attacks you. Maybe try it on a toy poodle.

All this being said, there is a story that Koichi Tohei Sensei told about one of his students and a soda can that is a classic illustration of why ki is not magic. I actually heard him tell the story and it's one of the stories he told that stuck with me. Every time I get tempted to think of ki as magic, I just remember the story.

Michael Riehle wrote: All this being said, there is a story that Koichi Tohei Sensei told about one of his students and a soda can that is a classic illustration of why ki is not magic.

Oh you can't just leave it like that. Tell the story!

Yes, please do.
Lan

Oh fine, I'll tell the story. But I really believe it's out there on the web somewhere already. And it was thirty years ago when I heard it, so it's likely I'll get some details wrong. That being said:

Tohei Sensei was traveling by train with some students. I gather the trip got a little tedious and people were looking for things to do. Tohei Sensei walked in on one enterprising student who was sitting quietly at a table staring at a soda can.

He sat there, staring intently and every now and again he'd jerk his head to one side. He continued this for a while apparently unaware that Tohei Sensei was watching him.

Finally, Tohei Sensei asked him what he was doing.

"I'm trying to move the can with my ki", came the reply.

Tohei responded that it was very easy to do so and offered to demonstrate. The young man got up from his chair, Tohei Sensei sat down and began staring at the soda can. After a few minutes he reached out with one hand, picked up the can and moved it to one side.

"But I was trying to move it with my ki!", the student protested.

"The ki does not exist without the body. My hand moved because of my ki and moved the can.", replied Tohei and walked away.

Now, I have to tell you that when Tohei Sensei told this story he was quite animated in the telling. He was clearly amused by the incident.

You people are silly, and you watch way too much Dragonball Z.

As for the no touch throws, I've definately experienced them. It's definately not a long distance thing. You fall to avoid being hit, pretty simple. I remember doing iriminage with my sister not long ago, (she's ikkyu.) It was fantastic! She just did the motion of the technique and her ki (and movement, me being scared...) made me fall, hard.

For ANON- You should investigate the other dojos and instructors in the area. If there is a legitimate Sensei nearby who is currently not offering classes, speak to him/her, maybe you can start some, or get private lessons. As for your current dojo, I recommend leaving politely, even if you do think the Sensei is a total nut job.

If you can't find a suitable dojo, pick up and move!

They are not throws!!!!! You fall over or flip yourself, but to throw someone requires you to move them, not them move themself!!!!!

No touch throws don't exist!!!!!

The only way you can make me change my mind is for me to stand still and do nothing and for you to,ahem, throw me, without touching me!!!!!!

Si Wilson wrote: No touch throws don't exist!!!!! The only way you can make me change my mind is for me to stand still and do nothing and for you to,ahem, throw me, without touching me!!!!!!

Bet I can do it (as he picks up a good sized rock from the ground). Watch how you word things. Hee hee hee.
Rock

Si Wilson wrote: They are not throws!!!!! You fall over or flip yourself, but to throw someone requires you to move them, not them move themself!!!!!

That's just semantics. If it looks, walks and quacks like a duck, I have no problem in calling it a duck.

I've taken ukemi early to avoid a disastrous fall from a very fast attack, but I don't consider that a no-touch throw. But this is the sort I've experienced:

mriehle wrote: ...someone throwing a hand in your face as you come barrelling toward them at top speed...

You're bracing yourself in reaction to the hand, so you're leaning forward to compensate; then all of a sudden the hand is removed fast without making contact and you fall forward just as you would have if uke had reversed hands and clocked you from behind. My balance is taken absolutely and I wind up on the floor just as if I'd been thrown by one of uke's arms on the reversal.

Si Wilson wrote: They are not throws!!!!! You fall over or flip yourself, but to throw someone requires you to move them, not them move themself!!!!!

But they fell because of something nage did. So nage's action was required to create the situation where uke falls.

It's like me saying that if you flick your fingers at my eyes and I flinch, that because you didn't actually touch me you didn't really make me move....I did it myself.

Bronson

Bronson Diffin wrote: But they fell because of something nage did. So nage's action was required to create the situation where uke falls. It's like me saying that if you flick your fingers at my eyes and I flinch, that because you didn't actually touch me you didn't really make me move....I did it myself. Bronson

You said it mate - "they fell"!

But would they fall without the presence of nage's action?

Bronson

Bronson Diffin wrote: But would they fall without the presence of nage's action? Bronson

Would they fall if they did different Aikido (or didn't do any Aikido)?

Hey this is neat. It is starting to sound like a Zen koan.

What is the nature of the ukemi before a person is thrown? What is the intent of the uke if that person falls without without nage making a motion?

Hee hee hee
Rock

OK, to the woolly Ki/No touch throw people out there!!!! Can you pick up a pencil without touching it?

I can pick up a pen by letting go of it. By causing potential energy to build inside the spring, when I let go of it (at which point I am no longer touching it) it throws itself.

Whether you say I threw it or caused it to throw itself doesn't matter.

Because the pen is an inanimate object, you do have to touch it to build the potential energy in the spring. Since your partner has intention and is animate, you can facilitate that same effect without actually touching them.

I have to say that the best aikido I've ever felt is when I cannot quite say whether it was me or my partner that caused the throw to happen. Does it matter who did it?

Fodder:

Do you think "no touch" throws in aikido are fake? - 11/17/2001
http://www.aikiweb.com/polls/results.html?poll_id=86

-- Jun

Si Wilson wrote: OK, to the woolly Ki/No touch throw people out there!!!! Can you pick up a pencil without touching it?

For the "no touch pencil pickup", that would be the Force you're using, not ki.

Hiroaki Izumi wrote: Hey this is neat. It is starting to sound like a Zen koan.

So if a person is thrown in the woods and there was no one around to throw him was it a no touch throw?

Carl Bilodeau wrote: So if a person is thrown in the woods and there was no one around to throw him was it a no touch throw?

lol you know Si's gonna jump all over that one... :-)


Stu (advocate of the Big Touch Throw(TM))

I was watching some old film from Aiki News. It showed the founder in his 80's. About 30-45% of the throws he was doing were no touch throws. He had this one technique where he would go down a line of seiza sitting students. As they rose to grab him as he walked by, he would do a no touch throw on them. He would walk down the whole line like this.

If all this is on film from the founder, why do people still deny the existence of a no touch technique? I just don't get it.
confused