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Old 02-27-2001, 04:27 PM   #26
Nick
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Of course I train to be better in a fight, I'm 14 and wehn I fall asleep in class daydream of a climactic showdown between me and the schoolyard bully, where I use my mystical budo training to teach him a lesson, and everyone cheers for me as I leave him sprawled out on the floor.

As of yet, that hasn't happened, and since I usually keep to myself during school, I doubt it will. So I need a better reason to train. I've found that in the philosophy of masakatsu agatsu... you may train for 50 years and never get into a fight. If all you've trained for is to become an ultimate fighter, than are your hours and hours of training over the years all a waste?

I've found that it doesn't matter how many people you can defeat-- if you can't defeat yourself, you've still got a very powerful enemy facing you.

Nick
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Old 02-27-2001, 05:28 PM   #27
darin
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Quote:
JJF wrote:
Quote:
darin wrote:
Aikido is all about fighting. We train to attain perfection in our movements. These movements are designed for one thing. That is defeating an opponent.
I don't think so - I believe they are designed for resolving situations that could potentionally be lethal for one or both parts involved. If possible without any harm, or else with as little harm as possible.
Quote:
Everyone is talking about love. Tell me, what are you tested on at gradings? Your personality? Should we forget about techniques and just all hold hands and sing folk songs.
[/b]
Actually you should be tested on personality. I would really doubt that someone with a high technical level but the attitude of a bully could get very far within Aikido. If those who hands out the grades doesn't take the personality of the person being testet into account, then I believe they make a great mistake. A Shodan in Aikido is not just an indication of a specific amount of techniqes learned, but just as much - and perhaps even more - an indication of a personal level that this person has reached. I have seen persons being held back from a shodan-grading by a collective of Senseis simply because they had personal issuses that made it impossible to take on the responsibility of an Aikido-shodan and to show the human growth as such.
Quote:
Most important thing is to train hard. Concentrate on learning the techniques. We shouldn't have to go to aikido to become better people. Its not what it is meant for.
[/b]
You're joking - right ? Otherwise I just have to say that i think it is the other way around. Anyway - don't take it from me. Take a look at the articles under the different sections of this web-site. Some of them are written by Aikidoists with many years of practice and a lot of insight, and I think that most of those articles will back up my view upon Aikido.

Just one example though - from a translation of O-Senseis' teachings in the 'General' section: Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them. It is a way to lead all human beings to live in harmony with each other as though everyone were one family

It might be that this quote is not in compliance with you view upon Aikido - in that case we just disagree since you have a different opinion of which you are entitled, but I think it should at least make you stop making statements about what Aikido was designed for or not, when they are so clearly in contrast to the teachings of the man who actually did the 'designing' part.

Just my reaction to your post. You threw the bait and I jumped at it. [/b]
When I teach aikido I have no time to preach to my students about how they should live their lives. I am only 27. How can I tell a 40 year old banker, teacher or parent what to do? Also, I can't refuse someone a grading based on their personality. Each person is different. What they do outside of the dojo is not my concern. They pay me for a service and that is to teach aikido.

As a teacher its my duty to be professional. That is to judge people only on their skills in aikido. They are there to learn how to do the techniques. The art is difficult enough as it is. Why complicate things with mumbo jumbo love talk.

The way you describe aikido it sounds like its some kind of religious cult. Who cares what O'Sensei said. I don't. I never met the guy. He has nothing to do with me. I am not going to live my life based on his or anyone elses ideals. I am just here to learn aikido.

The most important thing in martial arts are the techniques. Training hard will help you develop a strong, fit body, quick reflexes and hopefully an ability to defend yourself. There is more to life than just aikido.


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Old 02-27-2001, 07:50 PM   #28
Jim23
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I think some people are just natural born fighters (just like some are natural runners, etc). It doesn't mean that they can't be made much better by training, it's just that it comes very easy to them.

We all know of the quiet guy in high school (I think I can remember that far back), who, when picked on by the school bully, shocks everyone (including himself) when he ends the fight with an easy victory - something I've witnessed a few times.

Now, add the 'aikido element' (or ANY MA), and presto ... great fighter (if he/she chooses to fight, that is)!

I was reading a thread (elsewhere), where someone said that way before they started training in aikido (no martial arts experience), they used to get into fights a lot, and sometimes with various martial artists. He also said that he had NEVER lost a fight. He was just a natural, strong, smart (?) fighter with quick reflexes (BTW, he said that he has since matured and mended his ways).

So, whether or not aikido will make you a better person or better fighter, I think really depends on what you are basically like as an individual, without aikido.

I know this all sounds pretty obvious, but you'd never know it based on the all the previous posts.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 02-27-2001, 08:04 PM   #29
darin
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Quote:
Jim23 wrote:
I think some people are just natural born fighters (just like some are natural runners, etc). It doesn't mean that they can't be made much better by training, it's just that it comes very easy to them.

We all know of the quiet guy in high school (I think I can remember that far back), who, when picked on by the school bully, shocks everyone (including himself) when he ends the fight with an easy victory - something I've witnessed a few times.

Now, add the 'aikido element' (or ANY MA), and presto ... great fighter (if he/she chooses to fight, that is)!

I was reading a thread (elsewhere), where someone said that way before they started training in aikido (no martial arts experience), they used to get into fights a lot, and sometimes with various martial artists. He also said that he had NEVER lost a fight. He was just a natural, strong, smart (?) fighter with quick reflexes (BTW, he said that he has since matured and mended his ways).

So, whether or not aikido will make you a better person or better fighter, I think really depends on what you are basically like as an individual, without aikido.

I know this all sounds pretty obvious, but you'd never know it based on the all the previous posts.

Jim23
That is what I am trying to say Jim. I have met many aikidoka that I don't like. They are either rude or can't be trusted. Some have good techniques and others not. This also goes for high ranking Japanese teachers too.

I don't think aikido itself can change people. Its not designed that way. This is why its important for people to concentrate only on techniques. Train hard. Thats all that matters.


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Old 02-27-2001, 08:31 PM   #30
Jim23
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Quote:
darin wrote:
That is what I am trying to say Jim. I have met many aikidoka that I don't like. They are either rude or can't be trusted. Some have good techniques and others not. This also goes for high ranking Japanese teachers too.

I don't think aikido itself can change people. Its not designed that way. This is why its important for people to concentrate only on techniques. Train hard. Thats all that matters.
A lot really depends on the individual.

Years ago I had a TKD instructor, who was an EXCELLENT martial artist (He was also the TKD champion of, I believe it was, Columbia - tough as nails). One of the strongest, skillful and NICEST people you could meet - salt of the earth. This guy was amazing! I heard that years later he successfully caught a teenager who had jumped out of a fourth (I think) storey window, trying to commit suicide. The kid was saved, but the TKD guy ended up in hospital for a long time as a result!

I have also seen the exact opposite. And frankly, I have no use for them. No respect at all, regardless of the style they're in.

BTW, the same TKD teacher told me that there were some guys that he had met in (I think it was) Columbia, that he wouldn't even think of tangling with, even though they had no martial arts experience!

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 09-27-2001, 03:30 AM   #31
Robert Benton
Dojo: M/A IN AIKIDO
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THIS MAY OR MAY NOT HIT ON THE SUBJECT AT HAND AS I AM NEW TO THIS SITE BUT I CONSIDER MYSELF TO BE A VERY HUMBLE PERSON OF 37/150 POUNDS 5/7 AND NON AGRESSIVE AS A GENERAL RULE,BUT AS A SINGER IN THE BAR SCENE,CAN SEE THE ADDED CONFIDENCE THAT I HAVE GAINED BY LEARNING THIS ART AND HAVE A GREAT DESIRE TO CONTINUE MY EDUCATION THUS FAR, NOT TO FIGHT, BUT TO HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO DEFEND MY SELF AS NEEDED AND HAVE NOTICED IN READING THESE THREADS, THAT NOT MANY HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO TEST THERE SKILLS IN REAL SITUATIONS....THAT SHOULD TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT THE CALIBER OF PEOPLE THAT ARE ADVANCING IN THIS ART....

SORRY FOR THE LONG SCRIPT FOLKS.
R.BENTON 1RST DAN

R. BENTON
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Old 09-27-2001, 02:15 PM   #32
JMCavazos
Dojo: Aikido Center of South Texas
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I am not in Aikido to learn how to fight! I have no desire to ever be involved in a fight & I don't think it is a waste of my life learning a martial art - even if I never use it.

I grew up in the Bruce Lee "Enter the Dragon" days & I wanted to learn martial arts to be a great fighter. I started out in Shotokan karate & quickly learned that pulled muscles & bruised shins weren't that much fun. I started Aikido when I was 36 yrs old & I liked it because the emphasis is not on kicking or punching - and the first nikyo I received helped convince me that this could help deter any attack!

I like the fact that Aikido has helped to keep me fit (lost >20 lbs over the years). I think that Aikido will keep me alive for a few more years-simply because it is exercise (the only one I do).

I now feel that I have trained for enough years that I could actually use it in a self defense situation. I know now that the first 4-5 years don't prepare you for any fight. I have used Aikido principles in many situtions, but they were not self defense or fights.

I would prefer that an assailant didn't know that I do Aikido and end the conflict quickly. I don't think that fighting a street smart fighter would be effective for any martial artist because that is "dirty" fighting - standing up and making a long dragged out fight will go against me rather than a quick end to the situation.

I train because I love what I'm doing and it feels great when I go to train & I had a loooong day at the office & I am able to relieve all of my stress in the dojo.
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Old 09-28-2001, 04:32 AM   #33
leefr
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Thumbs down

I found this article very enlightening.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...Homma_ahan.asp

What do you think?
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Old 10-14-2001, 01:41 PM   #34
Fausto
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Unhappy I have no words

Quote:
Originally posted by darin

I don't think so - I believe they are designed for resolving situations that could potentionally be lethal for one or both parts involved. If possible without any harm, or else with as little harm as possible.

Actually you should be tested on personality. I would really doubt that someone with a high technical level but the attitude of a bully could get very far within Aikido. If those who hands out the grades doesn't take the personality of the person being testet into account, then I believe they make a great mistake. A Shodan in Aikido is not just an indication of a specific amount of techniqes learned, but just as much - and perhaps even more - an indication of a personal level that this person has reached. I have seen persons being held back from a shodan-grading by a collective of Senseis simply because they had personal issuses that made it impossible to take on the responsibility of an Aikido-shodan and to show the human growth as such.

You're joking - right ? Otherwise I just have to say that i think it is the other way around. Anyway - don't take it from me. Take a look at the articles under the different sections of this web-site. Some of them are written by Aikidoists with many years of practice and a lot of insight, and I think that most of those articles will back up my view upon Aikido.

Just one example though - from a translation of O-Senseis' teachings in the 'General' section: Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them. It is a way to lead all human beings to live in harmony with each other as though everyone were one family

It might be that this quote is not in compliance with you view upon Aikido - in that case we just disagree since you have a different opinion of which you are entitled, but I think it should at least make you stop making statements about what Aikido was designed for or not, when they are so clearly in contrast to the teachings of the man who actually did the 'designing' part.

Just my reaction to your post. You threw the bait and I jumped at it.
When I teach aikido I have no time to preach to my students about how they should live their lives. I am only 27. How can I tell a 40 year old banker, teacher or parent what to do? Also, I can't refuse someone a grading based on their personality. Each person is different. What they do outside of the dojo is not my concern. They pay me for a service and that is to teach aikido.

As a teacher its my duty to be professional. That is to judge people only on their skills in aikido. They are there to learn how to do the techniques. The art is difficult enough as it is. Why complicate things with mumbo jumbo love talk.

The way you describe aikido it sounds like its some kind of religious cult. Who cares what O'Sensei said. I don't. I never met the guy. He has nothing to do with me. I am not going to live my life based on his or anyone elses ideals. I am just here to learn aikido.

The most important thing in martial arts are the techniques. Training hard will help you develop a strong, fit body, quick reflexes and hopefully an ability to defend yourself. There is more to life than just aikido.


[/b][/quote]

You Darin are a Sensei!!!!!????? you really teach AIKIDO!!!?????? I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!

I'M IN SHOCK WITH WHAT U WROTE SORRY CAN'T WRITE MORE I REALLY AM SHOCK OF THE GREAT AMOUNT OF SHI...... u said sorry but that's what i think.
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Old 10-14-2001, 04:24 PM   #35
PeterR
 
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Re: I have no words

Quote:
Originally posted by Fausto
You Darin are a Sensei!!!!!????? you really teach AIKIDO!!!?????? I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!

I'M IN SHOCK WITH WHAT U WROTE SORRY CAN'T WRITE MORE I REALLY AM SHOCK OF THE GREAT AMOUNT OF SHI...... u said sorry but that's what i think.
This strikes me as really really strange.

First of all lets look at what Darin said.

Quote:
When I teach aikido I have no time to preach to my students about how they should live their lives. I am only 27. How can I tell a 40 year old banker, teacher or parent what to do?
An Aikido grade does not give you moral authority especially at 27 - Darin appears to understand that - bravo.
Quote:

The way you describe aikido it sounds like its some kind of religious cult. Who cares what O'Sensei said. I don't. I never met the guy. He has nothing to do with me. I am not going to live my life based on his or anyone elses ideals. I am just here to learn aikido.

Well that sounds a little bit extreme at the most basic level but I have to take my own Shihans approach to this. On occaision you get a bit of Ueshiba said this or Tomiki said that but in the context of a great man's appoach to Aikido. The Do comes from within, it developes from hard practice of what are essentially killing techniques. Ueshiba did not require conversion to his religion. What he did provide is a philosophical framework that may act as a guide. I am sorry but the Ueshiba doka ala John Steven's have very little meaning to me and most of the Japanese Aikodoist I know.
Quote:

The most important thing in martial arts are the techniques. Training hard will help you develop a strong, fit body, quick reflexes and hopefully an ability to defend yourself. There is more to life than just aikido.

Personally I find the Do very important but that (see above) comes from the training of techniques. Once the techniques become less important then it is no longer a martial art. Training hard will develope what Darin listed and eventually the human being (in the Japanese sense). Aikido is not life, it can be a big part of it, it can be almost completely integrated into it, but life itself is far far more important.

Fausto how dare you judge.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-15-2001, 10:26 AM   #36
guest1234
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1. It does not teach me to fight.
2. I did not start in order to learn to fight.
3. I do not fight(other than when ordered into combat )

There are those who say the exact opposite. Nice that there is something for everyone.

Last edited by guest1234 : 10-15-2001 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 10-15-2001, 10:42 AM   #37
PeterR
 
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Nice direct post Colleen

let me try.

1. It prepares me for confrontation (only way to really learn how to fight is to do so).

2. I became attracted to the martial arts because the exercise has some relevance but that relevance was not the main reason.

3. I do not look to fight and WILL question orders.

and 4.
I stay in Aikido increasingly for the Do which does not mean I ignore the martial source.

Quote:
Originally posted by ca
1. It does not teach me to fight.
2. I did not start in order to learn to fight.
3. I do not fight(other than when ordered into combat )

There are those who say the exact opposite. Nice that there is something for everyone.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-15-2001, 11:20 AM   #38
guest1234
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR

3. I do not look to fight and WILL question orders.


[/b]
One very nice thing about being a civilian

We of course do get to ask one question: is this a lawful order (i.e., does not violate US law or other military conventions, and is not a crime against humanity). But we in the military promise to give our lives if necessary to defend our country, and voluntarily relinquish the personal rights and freedoms enjoyed by the civilians we defend.

Maybe that is one reason, as I mentioned on another thread, that I am careful even at a low kyu level, to understand the goals and beliefs of any system or organization I plan to join, and if I can't accept them I don't join. In my profession, you cannot function if orders are not followed (despite the current slogan of 'an army of one'). It could also be a reason I don't look for martial roots in Aikido.
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Old 10-15-2001, 01:23 PM   #39
Brian H
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and sometimes you just have to fight.

I take Aikido because its more about control than force. That is not only Nage's control over Uke, but Nage's control over Nage. Unlike Colleen, I am not in the military, but in civilian law enforcement. Air strikes are not an option (except in Philadelphia) so I must confront persons who I am called to deal with. If a crime is in progress I must go the scene and help, it would be immoral for me not to. If the situation can not be immediately dealt with than we will surround and contain it. You can not say that every criminal will give up when confronted by the Police (I lost a peer afew months ago who confronted someone over an offense that only would have resulted in a ticket, and had a bullet wizz by the ear of a friend involved in a equally trival incident) Sometimes you have to fight because others will suffer or die if you don't.
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Old 10-15-2001, 02:00 PM   #40
Fausto
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First of all i didn't judge him and if a gave that impression i really apologize cuz i'm not the appropriate person to judge him, what i wanted to say is that o disagree with him that's all ok Peter

I think that a Sensei MUST teach his students to be peacefull and he MUST tell them not how to live their lives but at least he should tell them to use aikido just when there's no other choice but after reading what darin wrote i felt the opposite i repeat that's just a feeling an impression ok and i hope i'm wrong.

I apologize again if u or anyone felt that i was judging him.

Arrivederci
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Old 10-15-2001, 11:10 PM   #41
darin
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Re: I have no words

Quote:
Originally posted by Fausto
[/b]
You Darin are a Sensei!!!!!????? you really teach AIKIDO!!!?????? I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!

I'M IN SHOCK WITH WHAT U WROTE SORRY CAN'T WRITE MORE I REALLY AM SHOCK OF THE GREAT AMOUNT OF SHI...... u said sorry but that's what i think. [/b][/quote]

I guess I had a case of verbal diarrhea... got to lay off the forums for a while... Anyone else have the same problem?
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Old 10-15-2001, 11:33 PM   #42
darin
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fausto
First of all i didn't judge him and if a gave that impression i really apologize cuz i'm not the appropriate person to judge him, what i wanted to say is that o disagree with him that's all ok Peter

I think that a Sensei MUST teach his students to be peacefull and he MUST tell them not how to live their lives but at least he should tell them to use aikido just when there's no other choice but after reading what darin wrote i felt the opposite i repeat that's just a feeling an impression ok and i hope i'm wrong.

I apologize again if u or anyone felt that i was judging him.

Arrivederci
The reason I believe that teachers can't tell people how to live their lives is because most of them aren't appropriate role models. I know some martial arts teachers in and outside of Japan that are no saints. Some of these people are excellent teachers/fighters but are not the type of people I would want to model my life on. If someone is looking for guidance they should take up a religion or see a shrink or read their constitution etc whatever...

What's good or bad, right or wrong is up to each person's point of view. All a teacher can do is set some kind of example. It's up to the student to choose whether the teacher's teaching style is to his or her liking.

A person comes to a martial arts school to learn how to do martial arts. Once in the school you forget about the world outside. A distracted mind can lead to injuries. I think most arts recommend that you leave your worries at the door.

Anyway thanks for taking the time to pick through my sh... I hope you washed your hands after.
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Old 10-16-2001, 06:55 AM   #43
Fausto
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You are right a Sensei should just give an example but personally i think that you are not a good example for me i repeat for ME beacause after reading what you wrote i didn't felt the spirit of aiki, i know that you don't care about what O'Sensei said but i do cuz how can you not care about what the Founder of what you do said?? i really don't understand maybe i am Stupid i know but that's what i think cuz for example, if you are a Catholic practitioner (excuse the english ok is not my first language) you care about what Jesus said don't you?? so what impression do you get from a Catholic that says "I don't care about what Jesus said" i would have a really bad impression about that person, that's how i am, sorry.

If a person goes do a Dojo just to learn how to fight and not to learn also a little bit of philosophy i think that they should rather go Boxing or something like that cuz, a Martial Art is not only fighting, the problem is that in our days a lot of people does not understand that, they just do Martial Arts to learn how to fight and not to become a better person.
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Old 10-16-2001, 10:00 PM   #44
darin
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Sorry I am not a kung fu priest...
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Old 10-17-2001, 12:28 AM   #45
shihonage
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I am Kane.
I will help you.
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Old 10-17-2001, 03:38 AM   #46
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
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Quote:
Originally posted by darin
Sorry I am not a kung fu priest...
I'm sorry I'm not a kung fu priest too. That'd be cool.

Quote:
Originally posted by darin
All a teacher can do is set some kind of example.
True.
I do feel, however, that if a sudent is compelled to be polite and well mannered during training that it may help them be simularly well behaved with regard to usage of their aikido outside the dojo. Albeit that an -ssh-l- will probably remain pretty much an -ssh-l-.

andrew
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Old 10-17-2001, 08:31 AM   #47
Caio
Dojo: Awase Dojo
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fausto
You are right a Sensei should just give an example but personally i think that you are not a good example for me i repeat for ME beacause after reading what you wrote i didn't felt the spirit of aiki, i know that you don't care about what O'Sensei said but i do cuz how can you not care about what the Founder of what you do said?? i really don't understand maybe i am Stupid i know but that's what i think cuz for example, if you are a Catholic practitioner (excuse the english ok is not my first language) you care about what Jesus said don't you?? so what impression do you get from a Catholic that says "I don't care about what Jesus said" i would have a really bad impression about that person, that's how i am, sorry.

If a person goes do a Dojo just to learn how to fight and not to learn also a little bit of philosophy i think that they should rather go Boxing or something like that cuz, a Martial Art is not only fighting, the problem is that in our days a lot of people does not understand that, they just do Martial Arts to learn how to fight and not to become a better person.
I think you are mixing two things that are completely different, religion and martial arts. Comparing Catholic church and Aikido, and even worse, Jesus and O sensei, is really wrong.
I've been to a seminary here in Brazil with a sensei that was O sensei's last uchideshi.
He says that a lot of people think of O sensei as a deity, a mystical being. And he was not.
He was not a saint; he was human, like us.
Sometimes, instead of talking about love and harmony with nature, we should take a look at the world outside and see what we can do to help people in need.
But if you are in the dojo, stop talking and practice.

Caio
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Old 10-17-2001, 08:49 AM   #48
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fausto
If a person goes do a Dojo just to learn how to fight and not to learn also a little bit of philosophy i think that they should rather go Boxing or something like that cuz, a Martial Art is not only fighting, the problem is that in our days a lot of people does not understand that, they just do Martial Arts to learn how to fight and not to become a better person.
A little bit of perspective but in my time in Osaka I met only one Japanese who started Aikido specifically to explore the Do. This one example was heavily into chado and shodo, and wanted to examine the same from something more physical. Very interesting lady to talk to but to the point of hand.

Most young Japanese take up Aikido to learn how to fight - philosophy is not high on the list.

Some older Japanese join for fitness rather than self defense but here too philosophy is not really a concern.
Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew
I do feel, however, that if a sudent is compelled to be polite and well mannered during training that it may help them be simularly well behaved with regard to usage of their aikido outside the dojo.

Well yes and this is one of the things that practice helps us develope. The Do may not be the reason the vast majority begin Aikido or Karate or any of the more martial forms of the path but it is what keeps us there over the lifetime.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-18-2001, 06:03 AM   #49
Fausto
Dojo: Bu Iku Kai Mexico
Location: Queretaro Mexico
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 81
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I used that example cuz i think that if u practice something (any religion any martial art) you can't say that you don't care bout the Founder of what you do said. I didn't said that O'Sensei is a similar to Jesus.

I agree that in a dojo u most practice but if u just practice u will never understand the real meaning of aikido cuz for me aikido goes far beyond Shihonage, Ikkyo, etc i have not understand it yet but i think is there and a little bit of meditation is not bad at all cuz what do you do with a strong body with an empty head??? i think that someone like that is useless.
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Old 10-18-2001, 06:18 AM   #50
Caio
Dojo: Awase Dojo
Location: Sao Paulo
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 24
Brazil
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Thumbs down

You know what I think it's great about Aikido? Is that each one of us can choose the way we practice. Even when we are under the same teacher (if a good one!)
The way I see Aikido is training hard each time I am at the dojo, and through hard training I realize about other aspects of the art, like harmony, non resistance, no ego and other wonderful things that it teaches us.
And I truly believe that if I meet you one of these days in a dojo, we will have a nice time training together, don't you think?

Regards

Caio
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