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Old 09-20-2002, 09:05 AM   #26
Chuck Clark
 
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Two of my teachers that I've learned the most from were women. I'm certainly glad they let me in their dojo and, for sure, I'm glad that their teachers had decided to allow women in their dojo.

Each to his own.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 09-20-2002, 09:28 AM   #27
DanielR
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
I've very curious about the single sex policy. It doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy or be particularly interested in trying, but I don't see a reason to condemn it out of hand, or even to condemn it once it is in hand.
I apologize to Mr. Linden if my comments sounded as an outright condemnation; that was certainly not my intention. Opher - thank you for pointing this out. However, I did wish to express my surprise both with the fact and with the way it was presented in Mr. Linden's post. It was also my intention to understand why Mr. Linden chose to eliminate this particular source of personal problems in the dojo, and how is it different from all other possible conflict situations that may and do arise when there's more than one person in a room.
Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
If a group of men want to train together then one imagines, given the state of AiKiDo in the U.S. today that the women will have plenty of other options that they can go to for their training.
It's quite a dilemma for me. On one hand, I am rather fed up by the overwhelming political correctness in the US. Indeed, if such dojo exists, no women would want to train there in the first place, so apparently there's no problem. On the other hand, it's not a secluded group of men. It's a publicly advertised dojo. What happens when a woman aikidoka comes to that dojo? Is she told "males only"? How does this make her feel?

What I'm trying to say is - it's not against the law, but it looks and feels offensive. Again, maybe there're reasons for it that would convince me otherwise.
Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
I wonder if Daniel Rozenbaum or Richard would have felt the same way about a woman teacher who had a woman-only dojo. I'm not implying that they would feel necessarily differently (or even that they should). I'm honestly curious whether for either of them that would be a different situation.
It very much depends on the circumstances. If I heard a woman sensei say "I don't allow men in my dojo because it pleases me", I'd most certainly be as surprised.

Daniel
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Old 09-20-2002, 09:30 AM   #28
rgfox5
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I take the point about rejecting the men-only dojo concept out of hand without hearing the rationale. I will turn the flame off.

I feel that a women-only dojo would be doing the members a disservice as their attackers outside will be men and they should learn to deal with them on the mat to have a decent chance on the street, no?

Women-only gyms are common but that is different because the women would like to work out without having guys oggling them and the purpose is very different from learning a martial art.

I guess the same-sex dojo would only be illegal if they were receiving public funds?

Rich
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Old 09-20-2002, 10:05 AM   #29
DGLinden
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I have received a good number of private e-mails concerning my recent post as well as a couple lively mentions here right out loud on this string. Allow me to explain, and I hope you will be patient.

My choice to close the dojo to women students was not entered into lightly, as anyone must imagine. The decision came more from my desire to give the students something which has disappeared in this world. Exclusivity.

A half century ago my family would take to the woods each hunting season and spend a week at our lodge. My grandfather, father, uncles and cousins, brothers, dogs, (yes, a few of those were female) would gather and survive without female interference in a ritual that is still evoked when the autumn leaves fall.

In this place of guns and men, fishing rods and bourbon, the smell of old leather and flannel, fine machine oil and wet dogs; this place taught many young men how to be men.

I am not speaking of a redneck hunt camp but a place where men wiped off their boots, hung up their coat and hats, emptied their ash trays and washed their drink glass before turning in. It was a place where I could wake in the early dark to snuggle in a little deeper with my labrador retriever and smell the wood smoke and coffee and bacon cooking on the black iron stove. My grandfather would tug the covers and tell me to get going.

The men played cards at night after the hunting and I never heard vulgarity unless it happened in jokes, and men never discussed their wives good or bad. It wasn't done.

It was a place for men.

During the rest of the year we would box golden gloves down at the Boys Club, and there were no women there, then. We would swim at the YMCA and as I recall we didn't even wear trunks because it was a place for men. Later when I served our country in Viet Nam it never occured to us that women would someday have to share the horrors of combat, but now they do.

My father took me to study judo and karate at the police accademy and of course the only women officers were meter maids. That's changed too.

I don't think having a place where you can go to get away from the world is such a bad thing and sometimes men just like to get away from things. Getting away from the women has always been a part of most real men's lives. Sorry, but there it is.

I offer the guys a place to come train, meditate, throw pottery, study and develop orchids, work bamboo, and simply garden. We offer archery, woodworking, wood carving and sometimes basic construction. We have raised a hog and butchered it and gone off shotgunning for quail. If I listed all the Aikido shihans who have shot a gun on this property, trained here, drank a beer or two here, and relaxed here you would be very surprised.

So I have a place of men, by men, and for men.

They wipe their feet, and clean up their own mess. Women come visit on occassion and Patty Saotome has taught here as well as a nice lady from Montreal named Donna. We have a couple events a year and wives and kids are required to attend if possible.

The rest of the time it is for the men. They train hard, drink an occasional adult beverage and never discuss their wives.

And as for legality, or some depressed guy, or someone who doesn't understand what his digestive track is made for...well, they can go train at your dojo. I think thats fine.

Aikido is a big world and what we do here works for us. My students have made me proud and continue to do so, and they accept women students, of course. We feel blessed.

Oh, and one last thing. If you do not have a Master's degree, it is difficult to get accepted here to train as well. Oh jeez, here we go...

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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Old 09-20-2002, 10:31 AM   #30
nic an fhilidh
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Gee, Mr. Linden, I'm sorry we women have encroached so much on your world. I guess we should all go back to the kitchens and bedrooms where we belong, and not trouble you by desiring to hunt, or box, or join the armed forces, or learn to defend ourselves against predators.

Really, I have no problem with sex-segregated organizations of any type. But it's supremely irritating to hear a guy say he doesn't want women around because of PMS. Really, why not just say your dojo is male-only because you believe it provides a different kind of discipline than can be found elsewhere? That would be true enough, and you wouldn't sound like you were lamenting the fact that you happen to live in a time and place where women are no longer under an oppressive boot which limits what they can do in their lives.
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Old 09-20-2002, 10:54 AM   #31
DanielR
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Quote:
And as for legality, or some depressed guy, or someone who doesn't understand what his digestive track is made for...well, they can go train at your dojo. I think thats fine.
This is so refreshing! Finally, a thread were political correctness doesn't seem to prevent the real personal opinions from being publicly posted. I'd like to use this opportunity to be as forthcoming.

I couldn't agree more with the above quote. Respectfully, I think it's a great service to the society - providing a place where people with similar approaches to women, homosexuals and undereducated could do their thing. Hopefully, they all concentrate in such places and keep out of other dojos.

Ann,
Quote:
why not just say your dojo is male-only because you believe it provides a different kind of discipline than can be found elsewhere? That would be true enough
I think Mr. Linden should be as candid about his dojo as he was on this thread. For the same reasons I just stated.

Last edited by DanielR : 09-20-2002 at 10:57 AM.

Daniel
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Old 09-20-2002, 11:14 AM   #32
Kat.C
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Mr. Linden,
I think your men only dojo is a good thing for guys, it sounds like it would be a lot of fun. Unfortunately, there seems to be very few places now for either men or women to go without be bothered by the opposite sex. Personally I think its healthy for people to be able to have a girls night out or a guys night out, if they want. I must say though,that I am glad that our dojo accepts both sexes as it is the only one in town.

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 09-20-2002, 11:20 AM   #33
nic an fhilidh
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Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
I think Mr. Linden should be as candid about his dojo as he was on this thread. For the same reasons I just stated.
Sure. But if I take issue with what he's said, I can be as candid as I want, too. Right?

To repeat, I see nothing wrong with sex segregation in and of itself. I'm sure Mr. Linden is a fine person and a fine teacher. But I still think he could run a sex-segregated dojo without the implied attitude of misogyny. It's one thing to acknowledge that there are certain things that can only be understood within specific genders; it's quite another to pine for the days when women weren't allowed to do anything but cook and pump out babies.
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Old 09-20-2002, 11:31 AM   #34
DanielR
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Quote:
But if I take issue with what he's said, I can be as candid as I want, too. Right?
Absolutely. I was trying to express the idea that the more prospective students know about the real reasons behind someone's decision to have a segregated dojo, the better.

Daniel
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Old 09-20-2002, 12:05 PM   #35
PhilJ
 
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Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
Respectfully, I think it's a great service to the society - providing a place where people with similar approaches to women, homosexuals and undereducated could do their thing. Hopefully, they all concentrate in such places and keep out of other dojos.
DanielR, you mention a place for "them" to group and "keep out of other dojos". To which group do you belong, and do the others "keep out"?

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
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Old 09-20-2002, 12:06 PM   #36
PhilJ
 
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I like Kathryn's mention of "guys/girls night out". Those nights can be very fun and enjoyable, where men don't need to worry about how women perceive them, and vice-versa.

Everyone seems to want to change Mr. Linden's mind here -- which likely won't happen. This is an interesting point of view, so much so to some of us it seems "alien".

There are some issues here, hidden deep within words that will never come to light publicly for fear of retribution. Favoritism or segregation between groups is usually because of some kind of past experience(s) with those groups, or, because of environment or upbringing.

This is aikido we're talking about, not a poker group or treehouse club. The way I see it, it's only "right" or "wrong" if it somehow violates how the universe works. And I can't believe that practicing with only the people you like is a true representation of what O'Sensei tried to tell us.

More comments? I love a good, non-PC thread.

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
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Old 09-20-2002, 12:32 PM   #37
opherdonchin
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Daniel and Ann,

I found Daniel Linden's comments to be very interesting. I heard him saying that there were a number of places where, in earlier parts of his life, he had enjoyed male-only camraderie, and that, while it seems natural enough now that few of those places exist, he still thinks the male-only camraderie is appropriate. That doesn't sound misogynist to me, nor can I see anything in his post indicating feelings that women should be excluded from any of the men's places where they have now gained their rightful place.

Perhaps in discussing what he likes about the male-only environment, Daniel should have focused solely on the positive aspects of men and not complained about any of the negative things he found in women's company. On the other hand, in the modern age, we've sort of gotten past worrying about that so much, haven't we? I mean, we now know pretty clearly that men and women behave differently, and that part of that is because their brains and hormonal systems are different. Surely it makes sense that some aspects of uniquely female behavior would be grating for some men, just like some aspects of male behavior are clealry grating for some women. I don't see why that has to be a source of friction here.

On the other hand, I do think that Daniel's response to the issue of gender-induced difficulties in a dojo vs. difficulties induced by other factors was flippant, and I'm still curious to hear a more considered answer. I'm sure that he didn't mean, as Daniel Rozenbaum implied, that he doesn't value people who have problems or bring them into the dojo. It'd be nice if he'd help us understand whether he sees a difference between same-sex partners training together and husband and wife training together, or whether there are other common 'dojo issues' that he has decided that his dojo doesn't need to deal with.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 09-20-2002, 12:42 PM   #38
DanielR
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Quote:
Phillip Johnson (PhilJ) wrote:
DanielR, you mention a place for "them" to group and "keep out of other dojos". To which group do you belong, and do the others "keep out"?
"They" corresponded to the previous sentence: "...people with similar approaches to women, homosexuals and undereducated...".

The "keep out" thing was probably out of line. It basically puts me on the same level as Mr. Linden's remarks. I guess as long as it's on the level of a theoretical argument, I don't mind. It's the practical application that worries me.

I'm not buying the "men-only club" thing. There was much more in Mr. Linden's comments. How is this different from, say, a KKK-based dojo? Or a neo-nazi dojo? "Jews can go train at your dojo, that's just fine".

Last edited by DanielR : 09-20-2002 at 12:45 PM.

Daniel
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Old 09-20-2002, 12:53 PM   #39
opherdonchin
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Well, a lot depends on the availability and quality of the options. In a world (and it seems we are talking about the whole world here) basically all the dojos are co-ed, a mens-only dojo doesn't seriously threaten training opportunities for women. It might be different if Daniel's dojo was the only dojo in his town (is it?), but I don't see anything wrong with a Jewish community center, or an Italian Opera lover's club, or even a society for underpaid, overworked, caucasian, male postdocs in science.:-)

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 09-20-2002, 12:55 PM   #40
DanielR
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Opher,

I admire your diplomatic style. Every time I sit down to write a response, I try to make it at least a bit as full of tact, but I obviously don't have much success there.

I chose to address Mr. Linden's remark about "someone who doesn't understand what his digestive track is made for" because it contradicts so much with the rest of the post, which was so... romantic? I also believe this is a more important and worrisome part, which I believe sanctioned my next question about its difference with racist reasoning.

Daniel
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Old 09-20-2002, 01:00 PM   #41
opherdonchin
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I also found the comment about the 'digestive tract' offensive. It's both demeaning and vulgar. Luckily for my diplomatic style, I didn't get it the first time 'round, and by the time I figured out what Daniel meant, we were further along in the discussion. Still, for the record, I think the remark went beyond 'innapropriate' and settled solidly into 'ugly and offensive.'

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 09-20-2002, 01:01 PM   #42
nic an fhilidh
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Daniel and Ann,

I found Daniel Linden's comments to be very interesting. I heard him saying that there were a number of places where, in earlier parts of his life, he had enjoyed male-only camraderie, and that, while it seems natural enough now that few of those places exist, he still thinks the male-only camraderie is appropriate. That doesn't sound misogynist to me ...
Really, that's not what bothered me. I too believe male-only (and female-only) camaraderie is not only appropriate, but healthy - as long as it is engaged in in a spirit of honest respect for the opposite sex.
Quote:
nor can I see anything in his post indicating feelings that women should be excluded from any of the men's places where they have now gained their rightful place.
See, I did get that from his post. He made a long list of activities he used to enjoy, and implied strongly that having women there decreases his enjoyment of those same activities. I just wish he could have explained his decision without treating the concerns of women in that ... what was the word you used ... "flippant" way.

OTOH, Daniel's comment that it's better to know a person's mind up front than to hide behind political correctness, also has a lot of merit. I'm sorry Mr. Linden is bitter about women encroaching on historically male activities, but he's certainly entitled to his opinion and to run his dojo any way he wants, and the world does keep on turning.
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Old 09-20-2002, 02:00 PM   #43
Veers
 
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He didn't sound very bitter to me. His post about all the things he and the guys did, I can sympathize with some of. I, too, hunt, and, while sometimes my mom and sister come with us, it's usually just us guys. I see nothing wrong with women hunting, or swimming, or whatever else he listed...

He also didn't seem to be saying that he didn't like women. However, what happens to you (Ann) when someone starts accidentally getting on your nerves? Do you not wish to not be around them for a while? I'm not saying every woman gets on every man's nerves all the time, but I'd like to know why you think he's committing a crime by not letting women participate in his dojo. Like you and Opher said, it's not like he's the only one around, and he's not saying women should not do aikido.

My three cents.

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Old 09-20-2002, 02:09 PM   #44
Deb Fisher
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Why is your dojo any different from a country club that won't admit black people or Jews? Why is exclusivity as you define it worth preserving?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry... this explication as comical as it is repulsive. I guess I can only thank my lucky stars that this romantic, furtive world, with its Byzantine structure of Places For Men and Hiding From Women has never reared its ugly, frightened little head on any of the hunting trips or skinny dippin' sessions I cherished as a youth. Ozzie and Harriet meets Robert Bly...

truly sublime, truly unreal.

If you ever decide that shutting out slightly over half of the population (even periodically) is an incomplete, unenlightened way to live, feel free to join the rest of us out here in the real world. Most people think of women as actual human beings with very diverse capabilities and ranges of experience these days.


Last edited by Deb Fisher : 09-20-2002 at 02:12 PM.

Deb Fisher
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Old 09-20-2002, 02:19 PM   #45
nic an fhilidh
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Quote:
Jonathan Lyons (Veers) wrote:
but I'd like to know why you think he's committing a crime by not letting women participate in his dojo.
I don't think he's committing a crime by not allowing women participating in his dojo (I guess I'm going to have to repeat this indefinitely.) I think his post explaining why was full of bigotry, though. The shame is it didn't have to be.
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Old 09-20-2002, 02:21 PM   #46
opherdonchin
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Hey Deb,

I know a number of women who went to schools like Mount Holyoke, Wellesley, and Smith and found it to be a wondeful, productive, and fulfilling experience. They say it was nice to put men in the background for a few years and nice to come back to them later.

I attended an all-male college(not many of those left, are there). I can't say that it was a selling point of the school for me, but I sure did learn something from being in an all-male environment that I value today.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 09-20-2002, 02:27 PM   #47
DanielR
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Jonathan,

The posts weren't bitter. But if you get past the non-bitterness, do you see anything more than just nostalgic references to men-only hunting trips? I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid or suffer from acute case of selective vision...

I'm not arguing that Mr. Linden is a criminal. I'm arguing against the very line of reasoning that he's utilizing. "Women can practice aikido... but not in my dojo". "Jews are great... but not in my country". Do you think the analogy is too far-fetched?

Daniel
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Old 09-20-2002, 02:40 PM   #48
Veers
 
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Ann, ok.

Dan R, yeah, I think it's too far-fetched...but that's just me.

Maybe it comes down to this...

Dan L, time for a bit of imagination and fanticizing. If you were able (and I realize you're not, and probably no one is, but just think "if") to run two dojos, an all male one which you attended, and a co-ed one which you could, but didn't have to, go to, would you?

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Old 09-20-2002, 04:44 PM   #49
tittle
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
Surely it makes sense that some aspects of uniquely female behavior would be grating for some men, just like some aspects of male behavior are clealry grating for some women.
Er, what sort of behaviors would "uniquely female behavior[s]" be? I mean, you can make this argument in the aggregate (and whether those effects are due to nature vs nurture is actually still an open question despite your assertion), but when you come down to the individual -- I can't think of any behavior I've seen a woman do that I haven't seen a man do and vice versa.

OTOH it's fine that I'm not welcome in his dojo: it just means that he's not welcome in mine, either...
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Old 09-20-2002, 04:54 PM   #50
Veers
 
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Yeah, that'll make things better, Cindy.

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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