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Old 05-11-2006, 10:36 AM   #801
Luc X Saroufim
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

once in a while, a TKD/BJJ practitioner will study Aikido with us, just for kicks (no pun intended). He says he'll do Aikido "whenever he can."

i mentioned this thread to him, and asked him, "So studying BJJ/TKD and other arts, do you think there is a place for Aikido?"

before the blink of an eye, he said, "SURE! It can be very useful.....against drunk family members or in a Randori type situation"

that's good enough for me!

only 982 to go!
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Old 05-11-2006, 10:40 AM   #802
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Those are great stickers!
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Old 05-11-2006, 01:09 PM   #803
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I like the one that says Tap out, Knock out, or Pass out....it makes no difference to me!

Lots of room for aikido! I was training a group of soldiers in Pugil sticks today. It has been a long time since I had to do that....irimi, tenkan, hit.....irimi, tenkan, hit! Weapons changes everything!
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Old 05-11-2006, 01:58 PM   #804
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Kevin, I was thinking a lot about DO vs SU in martial arts. In addition to bjj, I take judo 2 x a week. I wondered about the DO emphasis on a style of martial art that focuses on SU which seems to me that judo does. I remember hearing a quote that doing randori with Jigoro Kano was like grasping and empty jacket. I also have heard many times that Rickson Gracie's BJJ is refered to as "aikido" on the ground due to his relaxed style. It seems to me that ultimately--to reach the highest pinnacles of these arts (SU) one still needs to focus on the DO.

Your thoughts?

Mike
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Old 05-11-2006, 02:49 PM   #805
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

You know Mike, I don't know anymore. I used to think that there was something special about the dojo arts over SU arts as far as following the WAY. I am not so sure any more as I study BJJ.

I am not much of a historian but maybe the emphasis on developing the DO arts comes post war japan trying to be politically correct.

I think it is hard to tell anymore as we see martial arts and western martial artist mature in the western world into there golden years. I watch Helio Gracie and read what he writes and see many of the same similarities between what he says and does as in the DO arts.

Maybe as Royce, Rickson, Rorion et al., mature and age we will see a similar process in BJJ.

That said, the DO arts do offer us a wonderful methodology for developing character and understanding of ourselves and our relationships with the world and others.
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Old 05-13-2006, 01:38 PM   #806
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

My sensei and one of his senior students work as bouncers at rather 'exciting' night clubs. They both talk quite regularly at the start of meetings about what happened that week and the techniques used etc... they never claim to have been beaten (i know that it is only drunks etc but still to have never been seriously hurt is quite impressive i think)
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Old 05-14-2006, 01:23 AM   #807
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido only dose Not work when one fixates on technique.
The phrase goes, "attack me and I will cut your bloody head off ".
We are living in Disneyland if we think any Japanese martial art was created not to work in a fight.
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Old 05-14-2006, 02:15 AM   #808
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

True, but surely we're also in Disneyland if we assume it will always work.
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Old 05-14-2006, 03:02 AM   #809
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Exactly ! you have hit the nail right on the head.
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Old 05-14-2006, 03:52 AM   #810
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I've never been to Disneyland! Where does that leave me? Oh yea...at post 811!

If one concentrates on technique...how do you know that the technique is aikido...since techniques are fairly universal across all arts and a matter of perspective?

Aikido is a DO or way...how does that incorporate technique?
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Old 05-14-2006, 05:59 AM   #811
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I've never been to Disneyland! Where does that leave me? Oh yea...at post 811!

If one concentrates on technique...how do you know that the technique is aikido...since techniques are fairly universal across all arts and a matter of perspective?

Aikido is a DO or way...how does that incorporate technique?
Some of this discussion started reminding me of a thread on fightingarts.com that had a really good discussion going last summer; take a look and see if it gives you any ideas to bring back here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthrea... 1d12355c66b9
What makes an "aiki" technique, "aiki"?
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Old 05-14-2006, 01:35 PM   #812
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thanks Wendy. I looked over a few of the post. Man, it can be tough defining what makes aiki...aiki. I have a few of my own opinions, but I'd like to hear from others as well.

aikido does not work in a fight, a fight does not work in aikido! an interesting perspective! I equate it to the Zen Koan "Stop Harm". How do you do this and still make it aiki?

How about the techniques? If they are universal...well then how to we recognize them as belonging to aikido? I don't think you can.

So what does aikido "own" how do you "know it when you see it?" How can you say "I know it works in a fight, because I used it!"

I think it makes an interesting paradox!
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Old 05-14-2006, 02:07 PM   #813
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aiki has always worked in a fight. It has occurred in confrontations without ever being named. It is exhibited by luck and chance, and by skills at all levels. Sometimes never to be duplicated again. It just "happened."
Then there is highly refined AIki as in Judo's Mifune. Aiki-Judo.
Wendy's long thread she offered with the dilema of Ju vs Aiki is a definition folks can debate till their dead.

For me;
Ju is a means with which to use the body as a defined method "to remain relaxed, pliant, and flexible" through an encounter.

As for Aiki and where it relates to Ju? Say fighter a. is flexible and lets say fighter b. is tight, flexing and isolating various muscle groups.
a. will perhaps have a better chance of creating and manipulating any possible connection between a. and b. iin order to create or take advantage of an Aiki connection for the simple reason that the flexible relaxed body can "read" and respond to input better than a tight body.
That said. There remains no guarantee that a. will be able to make use of any opportunity he either "gains" through skill or stumbles into due to luck or chance over b. if he is not equipped and experienced to handle it in a fighting format.

So, relaxed (ju) or no, Aiki or no, the better fighter may win out over a superior "ideal" or skill ...potential.... that was placed in the hands of someone out of their league in a combative sense.

All in all, Were one to weigh as a scaled measure of skill sets;
1. Relaxed is better than hard
2. Aiki or connection is great stuff.
3. But so is fast and experienced heavy hands, knees, throws, chokes and the ability to focus, press, set-up and play a man.

It is not a simple equation.

Dan
it will not matter if one is a better fighter

Last edited by DH : 05-14-2006 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 05-14-2006, 08:34 PM   #814
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aiki has always worked in a fight. It has occurred in confrontations without ever being named. It is exhibited by luck and chance, and by skills at all levels. Sometimes never to be duplicated again. It just "happened."
I agree! I was usually the smallest kid in class, and my friends, who loved to wrestle around, were usually the biggest kids in class. I learned quick that I couldn't out-muscle my stronger friends, and there were times when we were all a little amazed that I was able to take them down. I couldn't always reproduce the results, but sometimes I could. Almost 10 years later I was introduced to Aikido and I realized there was a practice dedicated to the principles I stumbled upon (and through) as a kid. The more I practice, the better I am at willfully integrating those principles into the way I move.
Not to harp on the title of this thread and its connotations, but after just surfing for a solid hour, I'm a little amazed at how often people commonly make sweeping generalizations about pretty much any given martial art. It's enough to reenforce my old misanthropy. Certainly it may be true that there are generalized truths about the different arts, and maybe I'm being nitpicky (and I'm sure people could point out where I've done this too) but I sure wish people would speak with a little more respect toward one another. How else can you teach a lesson so it will be received? And if the point of such rhetoric isn't to teach, why waste their breath at all? These questions are somewhat rhetorical in nature and I know many people are basically stroking their egos, but OOOH! it makes me want to give them SUCH a pinch!!!
Ok, got that little rant out of my system. Osumimasen!
Ogenkide!
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-15-2006, 06:49 AM   #815
Suwariwazaman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hello everyone. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in if I may.

First I really think Aikido is very effective in fight! Well definitely in a skirmish. I have a friend now that came at me witha marker. Thank goodness it wasnt a knife, but it could have been. Anyway when he Tsuki he stepped in. I am just a beginner by any means in Aikido. I tenkaned grabbed his arm, slid down it and made a great Kotegaeshi. Put him down on the floor like sack of potatos. He was in pain, I apologized but he asked what the ?#$!*!!! Where did you learn that. I told him Aikido. He practices Aikido now, but the point is it does work. I am also a 3 rd degree in Kenpo. I didnt revert back to a standoff stance and use Kenpo Techniques. I used Aikido. I had only a second to think about what I had to do. I really didnt think about it exactly. Only after did I realize what I had done. It was instinct I guess.

Now I think BJJ is awesome. Gracie, Shamrock, Ortiz they are the greatest. But I never forget the teachings of O'Sensei. I am a competitor also, but these guys train everyday, every minute for these bouts. They are professional fighters, so anyone who trains this way will be this way. Just dont cross their path. Aikido does not teach it's students to commit harm. However if you look at Aikido as Taijitsu or Kenjitsu you are dealing with an asassin. Also another art is Katori Ryu. Take a look at that and tell me thats not something. Take some Judo, Kenjitsu or Aiki, Kenpo and Greco-Roman Wrestling and throw it in blender and you get a UFC Fighter. Whew!! If I am off base then I apologize, but it frustrates me when I hear fellow MA's arguing about who's art is better. I know it's not all the same but we all carry the same integrity, bond and respect for our highly regarded art's.

If I know anything about what O sensei teaches is that we cannot be consummed by desire or this worlds manifestations to the point we forget who we are inside. To be a better person, not that anyone here isnt a good person or fighter, but when giving advice to whether it works or not you have to try it, and even then sometimes not everything will work for you in a fight, and then sometimes nothing will, and then sometimes everything will. There is too many varibles to this, controlled environment or on the street.

Thanks J
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Old 05-15-2006, 11:40 AM   #816
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I would hate to rely on BJJ in a "real fight" because when I took the first guy to the ground the other 2 or 3 would stomp the crap out of me while I was down.

Boxing wouldn't be that good in a "real fight" because someone might start kicking - then where would I be?

It all comes down to - there's some thing to learn from ALL arts. When practitioners at the highest levels (focus on the principles not the waza) of any martial art talk about their art there is much in common between all of them.

By the way, what's the best technique to use against someone that REALLY KNOWS how to use a gun? There is a greater and greater likelyhood that in a "real fight" that someone is going to pull one.

"If the bird will not sing...wait."
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Old 05-15-2006, 11:46 AM   #817
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Dan Harden wrote:

Quote:
All in all, Were one to weigh as a scaled measure of skill sets;
1. Relaxed is better than hard
2. Aiki or connection is great stuff.
3. But so is fast and experienced heavy hands, knees, throws, chokes and the ability to focus, press, set-up and play a man.

It is not a simple equation.

Dan
it will not matter if one is a better fighter
I tend to agree Dan. I fight fairly loose and relaxed. However, I fought a guy in a submission tournament last week that was fairly new at fighting, about 20 years my younger, quick and strong. I was suprised at how well he was able to hold me at bay using stiff arms and strength.

It took me 20 minutes of playing around with him to finally choke him out.

Anyway, I do find that the softer and more balanced you are, the less energy it takes, and the better you can read the other guy and respond appropriately.

As you state in item #3....yes this stuff matters a great deal too!
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Old 05-15-2006, 12:48 PM   #818
Raspado
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I thought about that question I wrote you Kevin all weekend. I really like Dan's response as well. I agree completely. I proposed the question to a friend of mine who has only studied BJJ for a couple of years, but is extremely talented on the mat. Now I don't agree with his complete assesment, he makes some very good points. I do think too much athletic ability was given up--this can be very easily demonstrated by looking at the majority of people practicing aikido today but I don't agree that all the true benefit is found in athletic ability. His response:

My reply has been delayed since I was still gathering my thoughts on the subject, since I don't have any real personal experience with any of the DO arts.

From what I have seen and read (most about aikido -- we'll talk judo later), while the goal of using martial arts for character development and self-enlightenment is worthwhile, and while the founders and those still doing it today have the best of intentions, the way they went about doing this was misguided and ultimately counter-productive since they sacrificed too much of the athletic and practical aspects in order to tack on their culture's meditative and spiritual aspects. I feel the true benefits (physically and mentally) of martial arts are found in the athletic training.

Luis Gutierrez, SBG's Vice President and a BJJ black belt said this about trying to make martial arts about spirituality, and it stuck with me:
Martial arts in their active expression are physical. End of story. Unless you are talking extra-terrestrials, combat on Earth requires movement. Some then may argue that they have a spiritual side too, a meditative side, an all important psychological side. Guess what? So does every action. Why argue the obvious? If you are in the correct frame of mind, every single activity of a living conscious being is multi-dimensional. If you are "awake", taking out the garbage is a great experience. Given the correct perspective, you can make break through and learn about yourself anytime while doing anything.
So I don't hold much by the claims that many make about DO arts being "about enlightenment". I think they are normally just trying to excuse its ineffectiveness and don't realize that they took out much of the authentic benefits of it by reducing it to ritualistic training.

But you mentioned juDO and Kano, so I'll admit not everyone got this wrong. I've read Mifune's Canon of Judo and agreed with much of what he said, but if I recall correctly, he stressed how the benefits only come from hard practice and lots of randori.

I hope that was the kind of response you were expecting. Like I said, I don't have an real experience with DO arts, so I'm not sure if my understanding of the topic is sufficient.
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:44 PM   #819
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Mike,

You are hitting on the essence of what I am discussing on the "Jo Trick thread". I simply cannot word it well conceptually I suppose.

I tend to agree generally with the comments you friend. Maybe not some of the assumptions about the founder's intent.

Athleticism is a vital part of the art. At least in my aikido dojo it has been very robust, active, frankly more so sometimes than I have experienced in BJJ! Then again, I tend to be very aiki in my approach to BJJ. I agree however, that there is a definite difference between the concepts of speed and agility in BJJ vice Aikido.

I don't think that is a problem though as they are training two different aspects, which is why I think the marry up well.

I agree with character development and spirtual development. There is no corner in the market from Martial arts...it is simply "a way" for many to experience life. As you state in it's most basic form taking out the garbage can be a enlightening practice, and it should be! It is the small and simple things that matter!

However, taking out the garbage, no matter how spiritual or personally fulfilling it may be, will not prepare you to deal with conflict physically, emotionally, or spiritually. Martial arts I believe do help in this area...hence why they are so important for us to study.

From there, we get into the various paradigms, view points, philosophies of those that founded and practice the various flavors that we study.

Aikido certainly leans hard on the spectrum of conflict resolution from a "minimal force" perspective. I would also submit that BJJ does as well. So what makes these two arts seemingly so distinct and at odds at times?

I personally find no difference between the two arts in practice with exception to the range of distance they concentrate on.

What I do find is a difference in the type of students that are attracted to the arts in the U.S. They seem to be at opposite ends of the same stick for the most part.

I hate to get sterotypical, but typically aikido people tend to be more focused on the "internal growth" aspects while BJJ tends to be focused on "external effectiveness". Ironically they both in principle need to work the same way in order for the physical manifestation of movement to work correctly! That is what is so ironic about martial arts!

I think students in both arts could learn alot from each other!

Luis Guitterrez's comments are direct, common sense, and very to the point. However, I am not sure he has characterized DO arts correctly. Maybe his experiences were with people that were more concerned with "enlightment" to the point that they no longer where practicing a martial art. Got it. Not for you...move on. Not so sure they are using it to make excuses for it's ineffectiveness, but have evolved it to suit there needs. May not simply line up with Guitterez's value system. Sure there are those out there that are, but I think this does not categorically apply to the DO arts.

BJJ is very effective as a martial art. To be honest, it's students are on the average much more effective in physical confrontation than Aikido students. (Sorry guys but I have found this to be true). That said, the full spectrum of conflict deals more than with street brawls, knife fights, and direct physical conflict.

Frankly BJJ does a very poor job of teaching people to skillfully resolve conflict through the full spectrum of conflict. Philosophically it is not concerned with it. It is only concerned with the physical part. A very important part of it.

I'd say for the average U.S citizen, they do not need to hone physical fighting skills, and would be much better served through the skills and habits gained through aikido, they are probably more practical.

You know, we are all products of our own delusionment and I think that this is what we must consider more than anything.

If I am concerned with ground fighting I am going to train with the best ground fighters I can find. If being a good knife fighter is important than i am going to train with the best knife fighter I can find. If I am going to study the philosophy and lessons of aikido, which I find important, I am going to study with the best aikido teacher I can find!

What we should not do is continue to be deluded and think that our chosen art can be something that it is not, or that we can "will" it into being that what we wish it to be. It is what it is, and we should practice it and accept the lessons that it teaches us. If we cannot reconcile that, we should find something else that better accomplishes that goal.
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Old 05-15-2006, 02:54 PM   #820
Mark Freeman
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
You know, we are all products of our own delusionment and I think that this is what we must consider more than anything.
If a mind is deluding itself, how can it know the truth?

Am I deluding myself if I think there is an answer?

Just a couple of questions set by a periodically deluded mind

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 05-16-2006, 02:55 PM   #821
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I am affiliated with Aikido of Northern Virginia as my home dojo back home in the states. I am a student there. I do not have students in aikido at all.

I instruct Modern Army Combatives and BJJ in Germany to the military community. Sorry I did not clarify this.

I did not mean to say that my personal opinions apply to those views of ANV necessarily.

That said, I see nothing wrong in spirit in how you might incorporate those views. Aikido as it is taught mainstream is principle oriented in nature and a DO art. I do not agree with his apparent complete dismissal of principle centered arts.

I think there are some benefits to be gained from the study of aikido as it is commonly practiced.

However, if I was concerned with effectiveness only....I would not teach the way we teach in aikido (and don't). It has nothing to do with the validity of aikido...simply two different objectives in training.
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Old 05-16-2006, 06:14 PM   #822
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Luis Gutierrez,...said this about trying to make martial arts about spirituality, and it stuck with me:
Martial arts in their active expression are physical. End of story. ...Some then may argue that they have a spiritual side too, a meditative side, an all important psychological side. Guess what? So does every action....If you are in the correct frame of mind, every single activity of a living conscious being is multi-dimensional. If you are "awake", taking out the garbage is a great experience. Given the correct perspective, you can make break through and learn about yourself anytime while doing anything
.
I really like this message. I might nit-pick the first two quoted sentences if not for what follows up after it. I do think sometimes you have to focus more heavily on the non-physical parts of martial arts, but the purpose of that is of course to allow a more potent manifestation in the physical world, whether it be greater general poise or whatever. I think the bottom line should always be taken into account, just as should the loftiest ideals & goals.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-17-2006, 12:15 PM   #823
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I am curious, how do you focus on the non-physical side of martial arts? What do you do when you do that? How do you define that as a distinct part of martial arts?
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Old 05-17-2006, 01:02 PM   #824
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hey what happened to some of the posts on this thread and where is the link to Matt Thornton's video? Either things have dissapeared or my mind is going.
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Old 05-17-2006, 01:07 PM   #825
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

It got moved to open discussion. No idea why. But that's where you will find it.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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